Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[The Light]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The way you JUMP to conclusions is just amazing.  

AT THE END OF THE 6TH SEAL we see THE PEOPLE ARE SEEING THE HEAVENS BEING OPENED.  

The question 
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

IS BEING ASKED

If his KINGDOM was set up AT THAT TIME

then NO ONE would be asking ANY questions, would they?


They would have known the answer already.  



SO, NO, CHRIST does not RETURN in the 6th, it is not till the 7th.    

 

It is you that are making all the wrong conclusions.

WHERE DO I SAY HIS KINGDOM IS SET UP AT THE 6TH SEAL????????

His kingdom is set up at the 7th trumpet.

And yes, Jesus does return at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and star.

 

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I do understand that Rev 13 is in the 6th seal.  Everything that has to do with the kingdom of Satan takes place in the 6th seal.  

Revelation 13 is not in the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Here is the return of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars, but you don't understand that.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Just like I understand everything that has to do with Christ takes place in the 7th

Sorry. Christ returns at the 6th seal for a harvest and Christ returns at the 7th seal to set up His kingdom.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Just like I understand the horses from the first 4 were released back when the book was opened and have been working ever since and the 5th seal speaks to where Gods people have gone ever since Christ rose.  

 

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. The seals are NOT OPEN.

And the 5th seal is the great tribulation.

You are wrong on every single point.

And I was wrong that the color change was blocking the software from working as you used red and i was able to answer separate points.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Rev 9 also  6th seal

Revelation 9 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 6TH SEAL.

Revelation 9 is located in the 7th seal.

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Corinthians 15.

Dead rises first so the dead are changed first in 1 Thes 4 

Two different scriptures. Two different raptures.

If it wasn't for the doctrine, and we were learning the words of God as they proceed out of His mouth, precept on precept...

first we would learn 

that AT THE LAST TRUMP,  not everyone would die but their bodies would be changed into a spiritual body

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


We are given warnings along the way

 2 Corinthians 11 KJV
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

now when we get to 1 Thess 4 we learn

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We can take those two verses to any middle school and ask children to show the connections of those two verses and they would come out looking like that most of the time.   That is how a child would read it.  That is how the sottish would read it.  That is how WE are supposed to read it.  Not 'adding' nor 'subtracting' from what is written, building upon the foundations laid and always keeping in mind 

 the simplicity that is in Christ, AND

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


The connection between those two verses IS UNDENIABLE, as even pre tribs recognize they both speak to the RETURN of Christ, it is just THE TIMING in dispute

ISN'T IT YOU WHO SAYS 'in Revelation we are given the SAME EVENT but from 3 different angles'?   If I have the wrong person apologies, but the same thing applies here...and when we ADD these verses all becomes very clear



2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

PUT FORTH here, THE DOCTRINE ITSELF IS PROVEN TO BE WRONG

2065 [e]    Ἐρωτῶμεν
Erōtōmen    We implore    V-PIA-1P
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    now    Conj
4771 [e]    ὑμᾶς,
hymas    you,    PPro-A2P
80 [e]    ἀδελφοί,
adelphoi    brothers,    N-VMP
5228 [e]    ὑπὲρ
hyper    by    Prep
3588 [e]    τῆς
tēs    the    Art-GFS
3952 [e]    παρουσίας
parousias    coming    N-GFS
3588 [e]    τοῦ
tou    of the    Art-GMS
2962 [e]    Κυρίου
Kyriou    Lord    N-GMS
1473 [e]    ἡμῶν
hēmōn    of us    PPro-G1P
2424 [e]    Ἰησοῦ
Iēsou    Jesus    N-GMS
5547 [e]    Χριστοῦ
Christou    Christ    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
1473 [e]    ἡμῶν
hēmōn    our    PPro-G1P
1997 [e]    ἐπισυναγωγῆς
episynagōgēs    gathering together    N-GFS
1909 [e]    ἐπ’
ep’    unto    Prep
846 [e]    αὐτόν,
auton    Him,    PPro-AM3S



THE parousias,  the doctrine claims to be BEFORE THE WORKINGS OF SATAN

is clearly shown in this chapter to be AFTER, not once, not twice but 3 times.  
 

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

And yes, Jesus does return at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and star.

Please START PROVING what you put forth with the WORDS OF GOD because UNTIL you start doing that you will be stuck where you are.  


EXAMPLE OF PROVING A THING

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" Genesis 1:14 KJV

Not a WORD as to those signs being specific to a certain events ONLY.   SO you and I are not going to set any parameters? on them either.  We are going to believe what is given...


The signs are for 'SEASONS' and Satan being cast to earth is AN EVENT, and is a season, happy for heaven, woe to us  

 

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" Acts 2:20 KJV


I can't hardly believe I am doing this but it doesn't seem to be registering somehow, maybe seeing how it is used in other verses might help...

4250. prin 
Strong's Concordance
prin: before
Original Word: πρίν
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: prin
Phonetic Spelling: (prin)
Definition: before
Usage: formerly, before.


before, ere.
Adverb from pro; prior, sooner -- before (that), ere.

see GREEK pro

Matthew 1:18 Adv
GRK: τῷ Ἰωσήφ πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν
NAS: to Joseph, before they came together
KJV: to Joseph, before they
INT: to Joseph before rather came together

Matthew 26:34 Adv
GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
NAS: [very] night, before a rooster
KJV: this night, before the cock crow,
INT: night before [the] rooster crows

Matthew 26:75 Adv
GRK: εἰρηκότος ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
NAS: had said, Before a rooster
INT: who had said Before [the] rooster crows

Mark 14:30 Adv
GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἢ δὶς
NAS: very night, before a rooster crows
KJV: this night, before the cock crow
INT: night before that twice

Mark 14:72 Adv
GRK: Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα δὶς
NAS: the remark to him, Before a rooster
KJV: unto him, Before the cock crow
INT: Jesus Before [the] rooster twice

Luke 2:26 Adv
GRK: ἰδεῖν θάνατον πρὶν ἢ ἂν
NAS: death before he had seen
KJV: death, before he had seen
INT: he should see death before that anyhow

Luke 22:61 Adv
GRK: αὐτῷ ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
NAS: He had told him, Before a rooster
INT: to him Before [the] rooster crows

John 4:49 Adv
GRK: Κύριε κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ
NAS: come down before my child
KJV: Sir, come down ere my child
INT: Sir come down before dies the

John 8:58 Adv
GRK: λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι
NAS: I say to you, before Abraham
KJV: I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
INT: I say to you Before Abraham was

John 14:29 Adv
GRK: εἴρηκα ὑμῖν πρὶν γενέσθαι ἵνα
NAS: I have told you before it happens,
KJV: you before it come to pass,
INT: I have told you before it comes to pass that

Acts 2:20 Adv
GRK: εἰς αἷμα πρὶν ἐλθεῖν ἡμέραν
NAS: INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT
INT: into blood before come [the] day

Acts 7:2 Adv
GRK: τῇ Μεσοποταμίᾳ πρὶν ἢ κατοικῆσαι
NAS: when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived
KJV: in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt
INT: Mesopotamia before than dwelt

Acts 25:16 Adv
GRK: τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ
NAS: over any man before the accused meets
KJV: die, before that
INT: any man before that the [one]

 

[The Light]

42 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

ISN'T IT YOU WHO SAYS 'in Revelation we are given the SAME EVENT but from 3 different angles'?   If I have the wrong person apologies, but the same thing applies here...and when we ADD these verses all becomes very clear


 
 

No, it wasn't me. I'm smarter than that, as I understand that Revelation shows the same event from 2 different angles, not 3. 

[The Light]

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We can take those two verses to any middle school and ask children to show the connections of those two verses and they would come out looking like that most of the time.   That is how a child would read it.  That is how the sottish would read it.  That is how WE are supposed to read it.  Not 'adding' nor 'subtracting' from what is written, building upon the foundations laid and always keeping in mind  

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

now when we get to 1 Thess 4 we learn

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Sorry, I'm a little slow. I couldn't figure what was going on. It's a little clearer now.

I think I have spotted the problem. You need to come to the Lord as a child, not study scripture as a child.

[The Light]

19 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Please START PROVING what you put forth with the WORDS OF GOD because UNTIL you start doing that you will be stuck where you are.  


EXAMPLE OF PROVING A THING

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" Genesis 1:14 KJV

Not a WORD as to those signs being specific to a certain events ONLY.   SO you and I are not going to set any parameters? on them either.  We are going to believe what is given...


The signs are for 'SEASONS' and Satan being cast to earth is AN EVENT, and is a season, happy for heaven, woe to us  

 

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" Acts 2:20 KJV


I can't hardly believe I am doing this but it doesn't seem to be registering somehow, maybe seeing how it is used in other verses might help...

4250. prin 
Strong's Concordance
prin: before
Original Word: πρίν
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: prin
Phonetic Spelling: (prin)
Definition: before
Usage: formerly, before.


before, ere.
Adverb from pro; prior, sooner -- before (that), ere.

see GREEK pro

Matthew 1:18 Adv
GRK: τῷ Ἰωσήφ πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν
NAS: to Joseph, before they came together
KJV: to Joseph, before they
INT: to Joseph before rather came together

Matthew 26:34 Adv
GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
NAS: [very] night, before a rooster
KJV: this night, before the cock crow,
INT: night before [the] rooster crows

Matthew 26:75 Adv
GRK: εἰρηκότος ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
NAS: had said, Before a rooster
INT: who had said Before [the] rooster crows

Mark 14:30 Adv
GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἢ δὶς
NAS: very night, before a rooster crows
KJV: this night, before the cock crow
INT: night before that twice

Mark 14:72 Adv
GRK: Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα δὶς
NAS: the remark to him, Before a rooster
KJV: unto him, Before the cock crow
INT: Jesus Before [the] rooster twice

Luke 2:26 Adv
GRK: ἰδεῖν θάνατον πρὶν ἢ ἂν
NAS: death before he had seen
KJV: death, before he had seen
INT: he should see death before that anyhow

Luke 22:61 Adv
GRK: αὐτῷ ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
NAS: He had told him, Before a rooster
INT: to him Before [the] rooster crows

John 4:49 Adv
GRK: Κύριε κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ
NAS: come down before my child
KJV: Sir, come down ere my child
INT: Sir come down before dies the

John 8:58 Adv
GRK: λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι
NAS: I say to you, before Abraham
KJV: I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
INT: I say to you Before Abraham was

John 14:29 Adv
GRK: εἴρηκα ὑμῖν πρὶν γενέσθαι ἵνα
NAS: I have told you before it happens,
KJV: you before it come to pass,
INT: I have told you before it comes to pass that

Acts 2:20 Adv
GRK: εἰς αἷμα πρὶν ἐλθεῖν ἡμέραν
NAS: INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT
INT: into blood before come [the] day

Acts 7:2 Adv
GRK: τῇ Μεσοποταμίᾳ πρὶν ἢ κατοικῆσαι
NAS: when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived
KJV: in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt
INT: Mesopotamia before than dwelt

Acts 25:16 Adv
GRK: τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ
NAS: over any man before the accused meets
KJV: die, before that
INT: any man before that the [one]

 

I already proved what you asked me to prove. And as usual, instead of addressing the scriptural proofs that were provided, you just start posting a bunch of unrelated nonsense. Try addressing the facts for once.

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

John saw the bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints..

Only someones weak interpretation.

Pre trib cannot, absolutely CANNOT have all the saints coming down with Jesus...there is no bride coming down out of heaven that only has saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation...does not exist...it will not happen....the only time the one and only bride comes down from heaven it consists of ALL THE SAINTS...ALL THE SAINTS does not mean PART OF THE SAINTS...pre trib says part of the saints will come down...God said all the saints will come down ... pre trib is wrong...scripture is right...John saw all the saints and it was described as a bride coming down out of heaven..how did all the saints get up there? Pre trib doesn't even have a bride consisting of only new testament saints, as they leave out the trib saints...the bride John saw had a foundation of 12 apostles...the new testament says believers are brought in by the spirit into one body...the trib saints are in that one body...as scripture plainly states there is only one body...so pre trib does not only exclude the OT saints from being in the bride, they exclude saints that are in the very same covenant they are in from being in the bride....this is not the bride John saw...God only has one bride and it shows what she consists of..the reason part of the saints are never shown coming down out of heaven is because it will never happen...when Jesus comes, all the saints will be with him...at no time does Jesus come with part of his saints..the reason pre trib refuses to believe the scripture is because pre trib would cease to exist if they believed all the saints would return with Jesus...the weakness is not in scripture, nor is it in me by believing what scripture plainly states ...the weakness is in pre trib's refusal to accept the truth...

 

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus told his true followers when the end of the age would be

His true followers were all of Israel.  Matt 24 is about Israel. 

So I suppose if there would of been a Gentile believer on the Mt. of Olives it would have forced Jesus to tell the truth? Hardly...Jesus was telling the truth to his disciples and it mattered not whether they were of Israel or if they were Gentiles...absolutely a moot point.

The end of the age for believers of Israel happens at the same time the end of the age will be for Gentile believers...as it plainly states at the last trumpet he will give rewards to who? Just Israel? NO...Just Gentiles? NO...Just trib saints? NO.. Just 'church age saints?' NO...Just Old Testament saints? NO...Just New Testament saints? NO...he will give rewards to ALL HIS SAINTS at the 7th trumpet...as Rev. 11:18 states, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet he does what? IT IS THE TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be judged...No...there was not a time of the dead that they should be judged because at the 7th trumpet was the time of the dead...and who would be judged at the time of the dead? This is the end of the age Jesus was telling his disciples about...he was not leading them astray into thinking the end of the age was immediately after the tribulation...i.e. at the 7th trumpet, but he was telling them the absolute truth.....John W. would have us think they were in no condition to hear the truth about the rapture, so he had to mislead them into thinking they would be there....ABSOLUTELY FALSE....He did not tell them you will see this and you will see that if he knew his true followers would not be there to see these things...they asked him specific questions about the end of the age and Jesus told them when the end of the age would be...immediately AFTER the tribulation...he was not misleading them...and it matters not whether they were of Israel or not...the 7th trumpet sounds and ALL THE SAINTS ARE JUDGED AND REWARDED THEN AND NOT BEFORE.

Who is rewarded at the 7th trumpet? His servants the prophets...the saints, them that fear his name both small and great...and who are the saints? The group from Pentecost until before the tribulation would be included with the group called the saints, as when Jesus come he will bring all the saints with them...so God himself is calling those from Pentecost to before the tribulation saints and guess what? They are included with all the other saints and it is THESE SAINTS who are now being judged and rewarded at the 7th trumpet...and how does that fit it? It says Christ the firstfruits, AFTERWARD those that are Christ's AT HIS COMING...so ONLY those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming, but seeing Jesus said 'all thine are mine, and that of all God gave to him he would raise them up at the last day,' it is apparent that ALL THE SAINTS WERE GIVEN TO CHRIST and will be raised at the same time 'at his coming,' which is clarified to be at the 7th trumpet when he really does come, not the other coming in which he doesn't come, ie. the pre trib coming, but the REAL SECOND COMING is when ALL HIS SAINTS will be resurrected and rewarded..and of course we know this is not done in intervals as pre trib has put forth...as we are ALL changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...not part of us are changed at one moment, and part of changed at another moment at a different trump, and them part of us don't get changed at all...NO...these are FABLES, and false teachers turn away people's ears from the truth and what are they then turned to? FABLES. And what is a fable? Its a fictitious narrative and when it is used in a transitive verb sense it means 'to talk or write about AS IF IT IS TRUE.'

Talking about multiple raptures and resurrections as if it is true is a fable. Paul said we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...THIS IS THE TRUTH...to talk of other raptures and resurrections and 'church age saints' and 'trib saints' and 'OT saints' being changed or not at different times IS A FABLE and no matter if it is talked about AS IF IT IS TRUE does not make it true..the truth of Christ is in Paul and he is the wise masterbuilder and he laid the foundation and there IS NO OTHER FOUNDATION CAN ANY MAN LAY BUT THAT WHICH HE LAID....if it is contrary to that it is not the truth.

Paul said 'we are built upon the foundation of what? The foundation of APOSTLES and PROPHETS, Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone...when I quote Zech. saying all the saints will come with him HE IS A PROPHET..when I quote Paul saying Jesus will come with all his saints, HE IS AN APOSTLE...when I quote Jesus saying he will gather his elect from the uttermost part of heaven...THIS IS JESUS THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE TALKING. How did the elect get up to heaven? They are the people John saw in Rev. 19 of much people in heaven...How did all these people get up there?

ALL these people got resurrected AT THE SAME TIME just like Paul said...and in order for ALL THE SAINTS to be resurrected at one time, it HAD TO TAKE PLACE ON THAT VERY DAY....if the resurrection happened BEFORE that day then ALL OF THE SAINTS would not be there...pre trib is in a corner...they cannot have a resurrection before the last day and still have all the saints up in heaven...and if they think there was a mistake, they cannot just 'add another rapture' and fix it ...NO...the last error is worse than the first...they have only violated the criteria Paul laid out...ALL the saints have to changed AT THE SAME TIME ...it cannot happen to just part of the saints at one time and to the other part at another time, and you cannot judt have one resurrection before the last day and still have all the saints included...

12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Paul stated when the end of the Church age would be at the Rapture. 

Again you are violating the premise Paul himself put forth...if you are claiming to follow Paul and the revelation was given to him, then follow paul...he said all would be changed at the same time...not part here and part later...pre trib DOES NOT FOLLOW PAUL.

 

12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The "Day of the Lord" Rapture precedes the time of great tribulation.,

The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and terrible day of the Lord come...the day of the Lord does not come until immediately AFTER the tribulation, not immediately BEFORE the tribulation...'before' and 'after' are not the same

 

12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

We are still watching and waiting, we don't know when the Bridegroom will come, but it ain't Post Trib, because it is a known time..

No one knows the time because he said the days would be cut short for the elects sake...we don't know how much they will be cut short so no one knows the day nor the hour.

 

12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus told his true disciples they would see the abomination of desolation

Jesus told those of Judea in the future they would see the A/D, still waiting on it.

Israel is not reading Matthew to find out what to do...they rejected Jesus and are in unbelief to this day as Paul said...they are not converted until Jesus comes and they actually see the nail prints in his hands...had Jesus not come and saved them they would have been destroyed by Anti-christ...Israel is not the ones that is going to be hated of all men for his names' sake. NO NO NO...Israel in the tribulation is not being hated of all men because they are standing for the name of Jesus...they are unbelief...not belief...they are not converted until he comes...God pours out upon them the spirit of grace and supplication when? When he comes...not during the tribulation...and why are they mourning? Because of their REJECTION of Jesus...what does that mean? It means they were still in unbelief during the tribulation...and how would that relate to them seeing the abomination of desolation during the tribulation? Are they reading Matthew and thinking oh, great Jesus will be here soon? Hardly. They are still in rejection of Jesus. It is the true disciples that will see the AOD and realize, yes we will lift our heads for our redemption draws nigh..THIS IS NOT UNBELIEVING ISRAEL HE IS WRITING TO...it is written to his true followers whether they are of the physical lineage of Abraham or of the Gentiles...those of the promise are counted for the seed...the end of the age/ 7th trumpet comes alike to everybody on the earth...the 7th trumpet is the break between this age and the age to come...it doesn't matter WHO is on the earth at the time this happens...when it happens it happens to everyone...there was no other 'end of the age' for the believers...NO NO NO NO....the end of the age was truthfully told by Jesus to his true followers, and it mattered not whether they were believers who were of the physical seed of Abraham or Gentiles...all the dead up to that point will be raised and all the living up to that point will be judged...seeing he will judge both the living and the dead at the seventh trumpet, and seeing all will be changed at the same time, it is obvious no one was changed / resurrected / glorified / judged / rewarded before then.

 

12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

John W says their redemption has already happened before these things occur

We already have been redeemed, we have been purchased out of the market place of sin; so John Walvoord is right.  Salvation follows redemption.  Otherwise it could be considered by Works.

He is not talking about redemption of our soul...of course all believers are redeemed already...the trib saints are under the same new testament we are under...and what does this new testament say? It says we are waiting to wit THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES...meaning the redemption he is talking about is getting our glorified bodies...which of course agrees with paul that this changed will happen at the last trumpet, the same last trumpet that will sound immediately after the tribulation when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of our Lord...Jesus is in absolute agreement with Paul, with John, with Zech. that this is when we get our glorified bodies and not before...

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 13 is not in the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Here is the return of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars, but you don't understand that.

No, I DO UNDERSTAND the signs, I JUST DON'T HAVE A DOCTRINE that controls what I see and what I don't see and understand about what is written

There are signs BEFORE

There are signs AT THE TIME

There have been many signs, MANY TIMES.  

Why is it I am always the one who" doesn't understand"

I am always in complete agreement with what is written as it is written.  I put it forth time and again and all I receive back is the wisdom of man through the words of man based upon the conclusions and assumptions of men from what they have read.  

So, are YOU SURE it is me?  By the time all the WORDS OF GOD are put forth, only those firmly entrenched in 'THE DOCTRINE' will believe it anymore.

NOTHING that makes void the words of God wherever it goes, will stand BEING PROVED, something the doctrine is only now beginning to have to do, and it is failing on every front.  How could it not?  It isn't written.  


Have you NOTICED, the SUBJECT, in which THE DELUSION is sent, IS SPECIFIC relation to RETURN OF CHRIST? 

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Here are a very few things I personally see as not being right or righteous...

For it to be written we are to pick up our cross and follow Him yet choose to believe 'A DOCTRINE' that says you won't have to.

For it to be written we are to overcome and endure to the end yet choose to believe a doctrine that says that won't be happening because it has figured out a way to change THE TIMES.  

For it to be written Christ returns AFTER the workings of Satan, yet choose to believe a doctrine that claims He comes before

For it to be written we are to suffer tribulation yet choose to believe a doctrine that says there is being given one generation an escape from it 

For it to be written Jesus prayed we are not to be taken out of the world yet choose to promote a doctrine that says some will be

For it to be written the two are made one yet choose to believe a doctrine that insists they are not one but truly separate from each other

For it to be written we will see the AOD standing where he ought not yet choose to believe a doctrine that claims we will not be here

For it to be written Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not yet choose to believe in a doctrine that says follow the 'Christ' that comes before Christ returns or you will SUFFER GREAT TRIBULATION that is so bad God is removing the church voiding the verse death is appointed to every man...

For it to be written a house divided cannot stand yet choose to believe a doctrine that says only a couple of the 'churches' are raptured pre trib

For it to be written our GATHERING to Christ is AFTER the man of sin is revealed yet choose to follow a doctrine that says we will be gathered before.   

For it to be written For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool yet choose to believe a doctrine that claims He WILL NOT BE SITTING at all, but will be leaving not only the right hand but leaving heaven and coming to the 'earth' but not to the earth for the church previous to enemies made footstool
 
The list goes on and on...

I boldly put forth these truths that are WRITTEN and yet I am the one accused of NOT UNDERSTANDING because I don't believe 'the doctrine' because I believe what is written.

I ask of EVERYONE who promotes this doctrine to show anything WRITTEN showing A foundation and all I ever get is 'kept from the hour'.  

Truly 'Kept from the hour' is the foundation given to VALIDATE all the words of God that are rendered null and void...






 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 9 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 6TH SEAL.

Revelation 9 is located in the 7th seal.

I stand corrected in that it is written in the 7th seal

but as for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 6TH SEAL,

I beg to differ.