Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

What may not be obvious to many is that v.2 is simply an affirmation guarantee to all of the 11 disciples that they would go to heaven.  Because Jesus would prepare a place for them. That is a promise of eternal security. 

PERFECT.  PROBLEM SOLVED.  QUESTION ANSWERED

Glad to be of service.   

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

DO WE LEAVE THAT glory BEHIND AND COME BACK FOR IT?  OR ARE WE RAISED WITH IT?

Jesus was referring to the regenerated human spirit where the Holy Spirit lives in each believer.  Your question doesn't make sense.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Wait, can't be raised with it as that would mean we would be raised in power and incorruption....and that would also mean in a body,

Of course all believers will be raised in a body.  Their own, in fact, just like Jesus was resurrected into His own body, complete with nail and spear scars, proving that it was really Him.  But, the difference, is that NOW (after resurrection) His body was glorified and immortal.  Remember, He physically died on the cross.  But now, He is no longer subject to death.  He conquered death.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

23I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am;

that they may behold my glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

25O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me.

26And I have declared unto them Thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Ditto from previous post.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

These people were raised back to life again, but NOT resurrection life.  There is no evidence for such a speculation.  Remember Paul who brought Eutycus back to life?  His physical body received life again.  But not resurrection life.

Sure

Glad you agree.  If that wasn't sarcasm.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

You keep skipping over the problem with WHAT IS WRITTEN. 

Hilarious!

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, WE BECOME A NEW CREATURE NOW, OUR FLESH BODY DESIRES ARE DEAD,

Oh NO they are not!!  Please read Romans 7 and learn about Paul's struggles with his own flesh.  Then read Rom 6 about all the choices we have.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WE CRUCIFY THE FLESH the flesh is DEAD, WE are MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST.  

Then why does the Bible, you know, "IT IS WRITTEN", command believers to "put to death the desires of the flesh"?

Col 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Why is this verse in the Bible if your claim is true?

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

1 Cor 15:23 says "those who belong to Him".  So, just who does "belong to Him"?  Can you honestly claim that there are saved people who don't?

When the Lord comes for the Church........

This is a fallacy.  Jesus does NOT "come for the Churh".  In FACT, "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23, He will be bringing with Him the VAST MAJORITY of "the Church" who have already died and are in heaven.  They will accompany Him back to earth.

Second, you  haven't answer my question about whether there are any saved people in human history who "don't belong to Him".

9 hours ago, The Light said:

those that are Christs at His coming are raptured.

If by 'rapture' you mean Jesus taking resurrected believers up to heaven, that is also a fallacy.  There are NO verses that describe such a trip.  Not even in passages that deatl with resurrection.  Those who "are alive and remain" (1 Thess 4) will be "caught up together with THEM (all the believers from heaven who have returned with the Lord).

9 hours ago, The Light said:

When the Lord returns at the 6th seal, He comes for the seed of the woman, Israel, who now are believers. Christ turns His attention to the Jews when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. When He comes at the 6th seal, they that are Christs at His coming are raptured.

The seal judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, so I dismiss what you think occurs at the 6th seal.  I know you are focused on the heavenly "signs".  What you haven't thought of is 2 possibilities.

1.  those "signs" occur more than once.

2. Or, even though they are heavenly signs, they will NOT look alike.  

Either way, Jesus cannot come to earth at the 6th seal.  There is too much left of the Trib for that.  He comes back at the Second Advent.

Please explain to me what Heb 9:28 means.

9 hours ago, The Light said:

I already proved that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Rather, you have firmly claimed it.  But proof?  No.

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Bold print and all, you missed it?????????????????????????????????????????????????

I don't recall that bold print "and all" equals any kind of proof.

What I need for proof is unambiguous verses that plainly SAY what you SAY.

I do what the Bereans did with Paul's preaching.  I compare what people SAY with what the Bible SAYS.

I see no proof for your claims.

There absolutely is proof that Jesus comes back again, and only once.  And that will be at the end of the Tribulation.  I've given that proof.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

FreeGrace said: 

In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 cannot be the same event.

{note:  this is not my quote.  I don't believe this.  The 2 passages ARE the same event.}

they are not two events... 1 Thess. 4... is describing the event of the second coming..1 Cor. 15 is defining what the resurrection of the dead is..no contradiction between the definition and the event...the resurrection of the dead is what is being dealt with...not the ascension up to heaven...

I'm with ya!  I wonder how the quote in red is being shown as from me.  It is the living who are "changed in the twinkling of an eye", per 1 Cor 15.  

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

I have already explained using scripture why we know that the tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. And yet you can't see it.

I "can't see it" because I haven't seen your explanation.  Maybe you explained to another poster, but I don't follow every post to every other poster closely.

So, please explain once more, if you are willing.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

It's like talking to a Jew and telling him about the Messiah and no matter how clear it is, they just can't see. They are blinded. This seems like the same situation.

It's a self limiting blindness.  Many Jews DID see it and believed.  In fact, Paul's WHOLE evangelistic effort was based on "Moses and the prophets".  And many Jews did believe him.

Some people just don't want to see.  I've seen it over and over, when dealing with eternal security, etc.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

How can you not put 1+1 together and get 2?

Actually, I do it all the time.  Maybe you are confusing me with someone else?

8 hours ago, The Light said:

YOU AREN'T EVEN READING WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS.

Now you're just confused.  Very confused.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

As soon as you read IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION your mind jumps to IMMEDIATELY AFTER WRATH.

Actually, you're a rather poor mind reader.  You have no idea.  The seals, trumpets and bowls ARE God's wrath on the world.  I guess your idea of "wrath" is just a small portion of the Tribulation, but it's not very clear where you place what you think is "wrath".

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Stop doing that. Read what the scripture says not what you think it says.

How about this:  stop trying to read my mind, as you have no skills for that.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

You think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 happens at the end of wrath. IT DOESN'T.

I KNOW when Jesus returns to earth.  We call it the Second Advent.  

8 hours ago, The Light said:

READ Matthew 24:29-30 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What did we learn? We should learn that immediately after the tribulation, there are cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. Then we see Jesus comes.

Now let's look at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6

2 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What did we learn? We should learn that when the 6th seal is opened there are cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

From Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 we should be able to conclude that there are cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars in both Rev 6 and Matthew 24. That gives you a time stamp. The things that are happening in Matthew 24 are happening in the 6th seal because we are given a time stamp with the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

So we should be able to conclude that when the 6th seal is opened, it is IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. We should be able to conclude that when the 6th seal is opened, JESUS RETURNS.

From this verse and also the fact that the 7th seal is not opened we should be able to conclude that WRATH HAS NOT BEGUN.

Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

In summary. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

This is the second coming and cannot be the second advent as wrath has not begun.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Your error is concluding that just because Matt 24 and Rev 6 mentions heavenly "signs", you link them as the same event.  But you have no proof; on that they occur in both passages.

However, maybe you just haven't considered that heavenly signs can occur more than once.  Or, they are just different "signs" in the heavens.

Point:  we don't know what they will look like.  It is only an assumption that they are the same event.

And it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to come to earth during the tribulation.

I KNOW when He will return.  Second Advent.  

[FreeGrace]

32 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

When the 7th angel sounds is when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of the Lord.. this is the day he returns.. this is the second coming.. the is the day Paul said concerning the coming of the lord AND our gathering together unto him.. the gathering is the resurrection / rapture.. the coming of the lord happens at the 7 th trumpet.. the rapture happens then.. we all get changed then .. this is when the change happens to us.. it’s when the change happens to the two prophets it’s when ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP… there is no more trumpets after the seventh

Since the 7th trumpet is in the middle set of judgments, I believe the "last trump" is at the end of the Tribulation.  It seems some, at least, of the various judgments overlap, but there is a sequence, as seen in Rev 15:1 -  I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

These plagues (wrath) are the bowl judgments.  When these are completed, THEN we hear the "last trump" and the return of Christ.

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is equally not true...of course we are resurrected spiritually, that is shown in John 5 that the time is now that they that are dead shall hear his voice and they that hear shall live...but the next part in John 5:28-29  is not about a spiritual resurrection but pertaining to those who are in the graves and it distinctly spelled out as something that IS NOT NOW but is in the future...one it is 'the hour is coming AND NOW IS,' pertaining to the spiritual resurrection, but the physical resurrection is 'FOR THE HOUR IS COMING..' i.e. it is NOT NOW but it will come IN THE FUTURE..i.e. the second coming...not now but at the 7th trumpet, not now but at the end of this age.

I must make a correction on my part, as I have found dead

that are believers that are referred to as MASCULINE

4012 [e]    Περὶ
peri    Concerning    Prep
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    now    Conj
3588 [e]    τῶν
tōn    the    Art-GMP
3498 [e]    νεκρῶν
nekrōn    dead,    Adj-GMP
3754 [e]    ὅτι
hoti    that    Conj
1453 [e]    ἐγείρονται,
egeirontai    they rise,    V-PIM/P-3P


MY APOLOGIES FOR THIS, I WISH SOMEONE ELSE WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IT FORTH IN THIS MANNER, BUT AS LONG this truth is SHOWN, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTER. 

Again I apologize for giving incorrect information here.  

 

[transmogrified]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

Since the 7th trumpet is in the middle set of judgments,

The seventh trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world come down...this is the fulfillment of Daniel...And I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of days did set...unto him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people nations and languages should serve him...this is the second coming and it is fulfilled at the 7th trumpet...this is when we are changed and rise up, this is when the two prophets were changed and rose up...this is when mortality is swallowed up in life, we are all changed at the same time...the two prophets were changed at the seventh trumpet, so will everyone else...after the change the dead in Christ are raised as shown by the two prophets, and then we the living will rise up to meet them in the clouds...the living will meet the two prophets in the clouds as God will be bringing  those that sleep in Jesus with him ...along with the two prophets the living will meet all the other resurrected saints of all time...so there will be Isaiah, Daniel, Peter, Paul and Mary.

  The seventh trumpet is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he gives rewards to his servants the prophets...this is the day of judgment at the seventh trumpet...this is the day he sets up his kingdom on this earth...this is the day he will say to the sheep enter into the joy of the lord...this is the day of our beginning to reign with him for the 1000 years...these subjects are line upon line, precept upon precept they are not in chronological order...at the first of revelation we see he is coming with clouds and every eye will see him...at the last of Revelation we see him saying, behold I come quickly...they are like snapshots of your trip to Yellowstone or something...here you are standing by the bear...here you in front of Old Faithful..here you are at the lodge...ect...ect..each snapshot contains its own context...so when he is talking about the 7th trumpet and the kingdoms coming down at that trumpet, everything else must line up within that context.

In other words we can't say the 7th trumpet sounds and the kingdoms come down and then say it didn't happen at the seventh trumpet and is yet to come...NO...it happens at the seventh trumpet and we are all changed and both the living and the dead are changed, the dead ascend up to heaven in glorified bodies and the living will meet them later when they come in the clouds, but the change has already happened...this is why what Paul said is so much important...he set up the criteria and holds every view in check...pre trib violates the criteria as does every other construct that has multiple resurrections and raptures...but just as it solves the problem of the resurrection and rapture only happening one time, it also solves the problem of when everyone gets their glorified bodies...AT THE LAST TRUMP and seeing that is the case, the change that Paul said will happen to all at the last trump occurs BEFORE anyone ascends up to heaven...as it states the trumpet shall sound...first thing....and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...second thing...WHEN the dead are resurrected they are in INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES...they do not get it later...they get it when the trumpet sounds...same with the living...ALL get changed AT THE LAST TRUMPET...this is before ANYONE ascends up...but this is crucial because it proves the dead are NOT RAISED IN CORRUPTIBLE BODIES... so when the two prophets were resurrected they HAD INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE...THEY WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE..  so whenever they are resurrected they are given an incorruptible body...which goes without saying they must first be resurrected before they ascend up to heaven...