Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Guest Frankie boy]

1 Thess 4

Continued,

In Acts 10:11,16 we read of Peter's seeing a sheet descend from heaven:

Con

[boanerges777]

'Left Behind' At The Rapture

[Trinity]

Watch out man its only a matter of time till you got to play a billion questions LOL I couldn't keep up with them LOL If you need help with them ill be in later, i wont leave you hand like some people did to me LOL

[Guest]

Watch out man  its only a matter of time till you got to play a billion questions LOL I couldn't keep up with them LOL If you need help with them ill be in later, i wont leave you hand like some people did to me LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There, there, Trinity!

[Trinity]

Watch out man

[Marnie]

I believe in the PRE-trib position on the Rapture for a number of reasons, but the real obvious one is that the word "church" is found many times in the first 4 chapters of Revelation, but nowhere after chatper four, which is when the Tribulation begins. You don't read about the church because it's not here.

Also, the main reason for the Trib is to bring Israel back to the Lord; there is no reason fo the church to go through the Trib.

Just my thoughs, anyway.

[Guest 831]

Hi All.

The reason that I believe in the pre-trib rapture is that it is the word of God, That is what he says we can argue amongst our selves until the cows come home but it does not change what the word of God says, but I am afraid that I do know a lot of people who would argue the word with him. I hope that this will help others to understand the pre-trib facts. I would also ask none believes of this truth not to start about Miss McDonald as it has been proven that it is not true about her, so please do not try to use her as so many do. Also a lot of people have to understand that although there may be disagreements about what rapture scenario it the true one, when the Lord calls us we will all go to be with him if we have made a true commitment that is. I say this as some people who do not accept this or any other belief quite openly state that anyone who does not believe what they do will not be taken they will b left behind. This is not true & is an awful thing to say. The facts are that if we are born again in our Lord we will all go when he calls us to him, that is what matters if we have accepted him as out Lord & saviour. Anyway I have waffled enough.

Here is study of the pre-tri rapture facts with all the links as well I do hope that this works.

Essays (bible studies) on the Pre-tribulation Rapture

Essays supporting the pretribulation rapture from the basis of the Feasts of the Lord and the Jewish Wedding; including many verses from the King James version of the Holy Bible, & quotes from Strong's Bible Concordance.

YOU, my readers, who have decided to study Bible Prophecy, are following the Bible's commands:

to "exercise discernment" (Heb 5:14),

to "try the spirits" (1 John 4:1),

to "give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (1 Timothy 4:13),

to "meditate" and carefully think about the Word of God (1 Timothy 4:15),

to "study to show thyself approved unto God" (2 Timothy 2:15),

to demonstrate your honour as you "search out a matter" (Prov 25:2),

to show your nobility as you "search the scriptures daily" (Acts 17:11), and

to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 3:18).

Introduction to the topic of the rapture:

Pre-tribulation Rapture in Scripture (Summary Main Points) 10-10-02 revised 63k

Eight common ERRORS of popular pre-tribulation rapture teachers 11-14-02 revised 22k

Why study prophecy & eschatology (end times)? Why is it important? 2-7-01 5k

Why is there debate about the end times? 5-26-01 8k

Will all Children be raptured? 10-01-02 revised 6k

Why is the pre-trib rapture doctrine relatively new? Is it new? 10-01-02 10k Revised.

Clement & Polycarp on the Pre-tribulation Rapture 10-06-02 20k Revised. NEW!

10 Reasons why the tribulation will last seven years 11-12-02 41k Revised.

15 Differences Between the Rapture to heaven and the Return with the Saints 11-10-02 revised 17 k

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Detailed commentaries for further study. See also studies on the wedding and the Feast of Trumpets above.

Introduction to Bible Commentaries 4-6-03 11k NEW!!

Bible Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 3-14-01 44k

Bible Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 3-14-01 60k

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Bible Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2 1-31-03 50k

2 Thessalonians 2: Was the Day of the Lord feared to be "near" or "present"? 6-28-01 7k

2 Thessalonians 2: & Scriptures about the Rapture BEFORE the tribulation

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Bible Commentary on Matthew 24 part 1 7-6-01 31k

Regarding double meanings:

Duel meanings in the Olivet Discourse

Is the Olivet Discourse addressed to the Jews "only", or Christians too?

Matt 24:30-31 compared with Deut 30:1-4.

Comparing Matt 24:30-31 to Isaiah 11:11-12, Isaiah 27:12-13

More passages about the gathering together of the Jews

Commentary on Matthew 24 part 2 16k

Why the rapture is also in view in Matt 24:29-31

Margaret Macdonald

The emotional state of the nations

They vs. You

Commentary on Matthew 24 part 3 32k

The signs of the "sun, moon & stars falling" & Satan's Fall

The Lord's Return as Lightning

Satan is cast out of heaven before the tribulation in Revelation 12.

Commentary on Matthew 24 part 4 23k

10 Reasons why the Day of the Lord begins at the start of the Tribulation.

Commentary on Matthew 24 part 5 29k

The Bible's two definitions of the word "tribulation": 1. present day and 2. future time.

Specific phrases which refer to the rapture through the Feast of Trumpets and the Wedding.

The rapture: "the one shall be taken, and the other left"

The body & eagles parable:

The return as a thief verses:

The rapture in Matt 25:1-13

Noah: a type of the pretribulation rapture and the return of the Lord 11-14-02 revised 23k

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Revelation. 4:1 10-17-00 11k

The Great Harlot of Rev 17-18 is Jerusalem, & what that means. 10-4-02 40k NEW!

(Discussion with Lambert Dolphin on Rev 17-18) 10-6-02 NEW!

God has a plan for Israel! 1-19-01 19k

Ezekiel 38-39: The End Times Deception 02-16-01 13k

Ezekiel 38-39 and the Attack on America: Israel will be wealthy and at peace 9-20-01 27k

Ezekiel 38-39: Gold and Silver in Bible Prophecy 12-15-01

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Refuting false doctrine on the rapture

Once Saved Always Saved, (OSAS) is WRONG 2-3-01 38k

14 Questions about the Pre-tribulation Rapture9-29-02 49k NEW!

It is impossible for the Pre-tribulation Rapture to be a deception 09-30-00 11k

Do we need the tribulation to refine and purify us? 4-03-03 11k NEW!

Revelation 11: the 7th Trumpet: is it the "Last Trump" of the Rapture? 9-30-02 16k Revised.

Revelation 20: The First Resurrection: How can the rapture be before the first? 1-14-01 33k

How can the rapture be silent if it is at the trumpet blast? 1-31-01 7k

Parousia, or "coming or presence". Same word, same event? 2-20-01 3k

Ezekiel 13:18-20 "the souls that ye hunt to make them fly" 3-14-01 4k

Isaiah 14:13-15 [satan said] ... "I will ascend into heaven..." 4-08-03 12k NEW!!!

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." 3-12-03 NEW!

John 17:15 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world..." 7k

The Jesuits and the Rapture 3-08-02 16k

Fallacies of Philosophy 11-14-01 12k

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When people begin to realize the rapture is true, these are their primary concerns:

Who goes in the rapture? 10-22-00 17k

Will post tribbers go up in the pretrib rapture? 2-17-01 40k

Can I be saved if I'm left behind? 10-13-01 14k

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Sources from others on the Rapture that I have copied to this website.

50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture (I believe several of these arguments in this list of 50 are in error, and I do not agree with them. See Eight common ERRORS of popular pre-tribulation rapture teachers)

Pseudo-Ephraem's Pre-tribulation Rapture Statement (c. 374-627) "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

Margaret McDonald's Vision (1861) as published in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church.

God Bless you all

831

[Guest 831]

Hi All.

I am sorry I have saw that the links did not work so I will post another study instead ok, sorry about that.

God Bless to you all

831

Sequence of Events

1 Lord Descends from Heaven With a Shout

2 Trumpet of God

3 Dead in Christ Rise into the Air

4 Alive Christians Change into Immortal Bodies

5 Alive Christians Rise into the Air

6 With the Lord Forever

1 Thessalonians 4:13-1713But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Matthew 24:40-41 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Billions of people will be left behind on this earth full of surprise and terror at the disappearances of their loved ones and friends. Who knows what kind of explanations the Antichrist will invent to explain the vanishings.

John 14:1-3 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2 Thessalonians 2:3,6-7 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The words falling away may have 2 different meanings.

The first is to fall away from the faith. During our present time many Christian values and commandments are virtually ignored. Many have fallen away from Christ.

The second meaning is to fall away from or depart. This may be a reference to the rapture. Who is "He"? There are also two opinions as to who he is? 1) He is the Holy Spirit who dwells within God's church and people and is removed by the rapture. The other opinion favored by non-pre-tribulation Christians is that he is the Archangel Michael. At the start of the tribulation he stands up therby removing his protection over Israel. Daniel 12:1 Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found in the book, will be rescued.

After the rapture the Antichrist is revealed. The Antichrist is probably on the world scene now.

Acts 1:9-11 9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus will return to the Earth the same way he left; from the clouds

Promise of Delivery From the Wrath of God to Come

God promised that he would deliver his Church from the persecutions of the Antichrist and the wrath of God which follows upon the wicked people of the earth. The rapture is the fulfillment of that promise.

1 Thessalonians 5:4,9-10 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Luke 21:34-36 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Be ready for the rapture. Escape the wrath!

Isaiah 26:19-21 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The rapture of the dead followed by his people. After the rapture the indignation or tribulation will fall upon the Earth.

Revelation 3:10-11 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The Lord will keep his people and church out of the Tribulation.

Zephaniah 2:2-3 2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. 3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Imminency of the Rapture

The Rapture and the coming of Christ can occur at any time. We must always be ready.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The belief in a imminent or at any time rapture has two beneficial effects on the church

1. It encourages us to live righteously as Christ may return at any time

2. It encourages soul winning believers and missionaries to win over friends, family and the lost of the world before he returns

RAPTURE TIMING CONTROVERSY

What is the rapture? The Rapture refers to the sudden removal of God's people from the Earth. In the twinkling of a eye (a second of time) born-again Christians will suddenly have their bodies transformed and then they will rise up into the air to join Jesus. The phrase rapture (Greek word that is translated is harpazo) means to be caught up or taken away suddenly.

Of all the teachings of prophecy, the timing of rapture is the most controversial. Will it occur before, during, or after the tribulation period? Several different opinions exist amongst fundamentalist and evangelical Christians. Fortunately, when you believe the rapture will occur has no bearing on your salvation if you are saved. Regardless of when a person believes the rapture will occur or if he or she even believes in bible prophecy, one day everyone on Earth will die (some sooner than others) and be judged by Christ so we must always be ready.

Except for the rapture, the timing of most other end time events such as the rise of the Antichrist, the millennium of peace, and the wrath of God are not in dispute.

Depending on your interpretation of these questions determines when you feel the rapture will occur. No premillenial position of the rapture can be proven without a doubt.

1) IMMINENCY - Can Christ return to Earth at any time or are there certain signs that must occur first?

2) SATAN'S WRATH - Will God's elect undergo the wrath of Antichrist/Satan?

3) WRATH OF GOD - During God's wrath will the elect be protected by removal from the Earth or protected while on the Earth?

4) OLIVET DISCOURSE - Does Matthew 24 refer to Israel only or to everyone including the Church?

5) RETURN OF CHRIST - Is the time of Christ's return predictable?

The different answers to each of the questions and the effect on the four interpretations of the rapture will be discussed under each viewpoint.

Here are the four different views and links on when the rapture will occur based on its timing to the tribulation period:

Pre-Tribulation rapture - Christians are raptured before the persecutions of the Antichrist or the wrath of God upon the earth. This occurs before the 7-year period of Daniel (Tribulation period).

Post-Tribulation rapture - Christians undergo both the Antichrist's persecutions and the wrath of God and become raptured at the end of the 7-year period of Daniel (Tribulation period).

Mid-Tribulation rapture - The rapture occurs at the midpoint of the 7-year period of Daniel (Tribulation period). The elect undergo some persecutions but escape the wrath of God.

Pre-Wrath rapture - In this view Christians will endure the persecutions of the Antichrist but will be raptured before the wrath of God begins some time in the second half of the 7-year period of Daniel (Tribulation period).

ENDTIME PROPHECY TIMELINE

ISRAEL RESTABLISHED

State of Israel established in 1948

Jerusalem returns to Jewish control in 1967. Luke 21:24

SIGNS OF THE END Prophetic warning signs in 1999.

According to Christ the following are the beginning of birth pangs. The worse is yet to come.

Godlessness in the last days - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,7

False Messiahs. Prelude to the First Seal - Matthew 24:5,11

Wars and Rumors of Wars. Prelude to the Second Seal - Matthew 24:6

Famines. Prelude to the Third Seal - Matthew 24:7

Pestilences - Matthew 24:7

Earthquakes - Matthew 24:7

RAPTURE The instantaneous removal of God's people from the earth.

Matthew 24:31,40-41, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, John 14:1-3, 2 Thessalonians 2:3,6-7, 2 Thessalonians 2:5,9-10, Luke 21:34-36, Isaiah 26:19-21, Revelation 4:1-2

SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD OF DANIEL BEGINS

Seven-year covenant or peace treaty with Israel is confirmed by the Antichrist. Daniel 9:27

Antichrist is revealed. 1st Seal - White Horseman 2 Thessalonians 2:3,6-7, Daniel 11:36 Revelation 6:1-2

Rebuilding of the Third Temple in Jerusalem -Daniel 9:27

False Prophet is revealed. Revelation 13:11, Matthew 24:11

Miracles of the False Prophet cause deception amongst the people of the world. Revelation 11:13-14, Matthew 24:24

War - 2nd Seal - Revelation 6:3-4, Matthew 24:6

Mark of the Beast is required on all people to buy or sell. This signifies worship of the Beast. Revelation 11:16-18

Famine - 3rd Seal - Revelation 6:5-6, Matthew 24:7

Resurrection of the Beast/Antichrist after a fatal wound. Revelation 11:12

Two witnesses of God prophesy against the Antichrist causing drought and plagues to come upon the earth. Revelation 11:3-6

TRIBULATION MIDPOINT (3 1/2 years after the peace treaty with Israel)

Breaking of the covenant with Israel by the Antichrist. Daniel 9:27

Abomination of Desolation - The image of the Antichrist is placed in the temple at Jerusalem and given breath by the False Prophet. Daniel 9:27,11:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Matthew 24:15

GREAT TRIBULATION

Persecutions of Christians Begins - Matthew 24:21-22, Revelation 13:5-7

Death - 4th Seal - One-fourth of the world's population (new Christians and Jews) are killed by the Antichrist/Beast with the sword and with starvation. None can buy without taking the mark of the Beast. - Revelation 6:7-8

Martyrs of the Tribulation period cry out to the Lord. - 5th Seal - Revelation 6:9-11, 2 Timothy 3:12, Daniel 7:25

Signs in the Sky - 6th Seal - (Great Earthquake, Bloody Moon, Blackout of the Sun #1, Meteors falling, Mountains and Islands moving, Sky splits apart) Revelation 6:12-14, Matthew 24:29, Joel 2:30-31, 3:14-16

144,000 of the tribe of Israel are sealed - Revelation 7:2-4

Martyrs that came out of the Great Tribulation stand before God - Revelation 7:9-17

DAY OF THE LORD

7th Seal - Trumpet Judgments of the Wrath of God - Revelation 8:1,6

1st Trumpet - Hail and Fire Destruction of all the grass and 1/3 of trees. Revelation 8:7

2nd Trumpet - Meteor falls into the Ocean destroying 1/3 of ships and sea life. Revelation 8:8-9

3rd Trumpet -Wormwood falls from the Heavens causing fresh water to become bitter. Revelation 8:10-11

4th Trumpet - Darkening of a third of the sun, moon, and stars. Revelation 8:12, Joel 3:13

5th Trumpet - Locusts from the Bottomless Pit and Blackout of the Sun #2. Revelation 9:1-10

6th Trumpet - Eastern army of 200,000,000 men kill 1/3 of mankind. Revelation 9:13-19

Death of the Two Witnesses. Revelation 11:7-10

Resurrection of the Two Witnesses on the Third day occurring in view of the World. Revelation 11:11-12

Earthquake strikes Jerusalem destroying 1/10 of the city - Revelation 11:13

7th Trumpet - Consists of seven Bowl Judgements of the Wrath of God.

1st Bowl - Sores on men with the Mark of the Beast. Revelation 16:2

2nd Bowl - All creatures in the sea die. Revelation 16:3

3rd Bowl - Rivers and Springs become blood. Revelation 16:4

4th Bowl - Sun scorches the earth. Revelation 16:8-9

5th Bowl - Kingdom of the Antichrist/Beast becomes full of darkness. Revelation 16:10-11

6th Bowl - Euphrates river dries up allowing the Chinese army to move to Armageddon. Revelation 16:12

7th Bowl - Greatest earthquake ever, Spiritual Babylon and/or Rome is destroyed. Revelation 16:17-19, Jeremiah 51:24,26

ARMAGEDDON

Gathering of the Antichrist, kings and, armies of the world. Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 16:13-14,16, Revelation 19:19, Daniel 11:40-45

Final Conquest and Plundering of Jerusalem. Joel 3:2,12, Zechariah 14:2,3

SECOND COMING OF THE MESSIAH

Second Coming - Revelation 19:11, Zechariah 14:3-5

Beast and False Prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 19:20-21

Destruction of the armies by the word of God. Revelation 20:15,21, Zechariah 12:98, 14:2-5,12

MILLENNIUM

Christ rules on Earth.

Satan bound in the abyss for 1000 years. Revelation 20:2-3

Satan released to make war for the last time. Revelation 20:7-9

Satan thrown into the Lake of Fire forever. Revelation 20:10

GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT

Judgment of Nations Revelation 20:11-15

NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH

Revelation 21:1-2,12-14

Just in case that one is no good for you tey this one.

What Is Imminency?

In doing some research on the doctrine of imminency, I noticed few people take the time to actually define what prophetic imminency means. First, let us look at the general definition of the key word

[IraBenYahweh]

He will come unexpectantly.

[Akabu]

My belief in the Pre-Trib rapture is founded on several references in the bible. Of those, I find these three to be the most compelling.

1) Rev 3:10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

If we are meant to go through half or all of the tribulation why would Jesus himself say the HE will keep us from the hour of testing?

2) 1st Thess. 1:10 "And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Admittedly, this is a controversal passage. Some contend that it means that we are protected by Jesus from those who would harm or defame us to gain for themselves. However, I am of the opinion that throughout the Bible it is referenced to God to protect us from the attacks of satan and those who do his bidding ( Human and Fallen Angle ), but when it specifically says Jesus will protect us, and especially to DELIVER us, it is a reference to delivery from the tribulation.

3) 1st Thess 5:9 " For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".

I would also like to point out Revelation 19:2

" Because His judgments are True and Righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of his bond-servants on her."

If God's judgments are "True and Righteous" how can God place the same judgments on those who follow Christ and accept His salvation, that he places on those who reject him. To do so would be neither True or Righteous.

On a final thought. Why would Jesus say I come to you as a thief in the night, and that Nobody knows the Day or the Hour when He will come? Since we can pinpoint the start of the Tribulation to the signing of the 7 year treaty with Isreal, we can therefore point out the mid-point of the tribulation as well as the end of the 7 years. With either of the mid or post trib theories we WILL know the day, if not the very hour. The ONLY way that mankind CANNOT know the day or hour is if the rapture is before the tribulation.