Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

32 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

That you have to go through a particular event.  I must go through this trial of the 70th Week, to be accounted as Worthy. I must make it to it's end, then I can be Resurrected.

So then, you seem to believe that resurrection is something that must be earned??  Where do you get that from?  

32 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Meaning your faith is by works.  One must live Day by Day;

Wow.  Where do you get that your faith is by works.  The Bible cleary distinguishes faith from works.  We are saved by grace through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.

The Bible does not say what you say.

[Montana Marv]

43 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So then, you seem to believe that resurrection is something that must be earned??  Where do you get that from?  

Wow.  Where do you get that your faith is by works.  The Bible cleary distinguishes faith from works.  We are saved by grace through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.

The Bible does not say what you say.

That was in response to DeighAnn saying she must go through an event.  Nothing more, nothing less.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

59 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So to you, an "entry" is a resurrection?

No I said there are more than only one time to go onto a resurrection.  At least 2 different periods of time where the LOF can be thrown into.

I have 7 for those into the Resurrection for the Just.  Not all go in at the same time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Very difficult to follow anything in this long single paragraph.  Could you separate out the paragraphs?  And periods instead of "....".

Thanks.

      Scripture states the Lord my God will come and all the saints with thee. What I am saying is that when it says 'those that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him,' means that he is descending with all the dead saints from all time to the clouds and then those that are alive and remain will meet Jesus and these that God is bringing with him in the clouds and then all descend down at the Second Coming.

    Pre trib states the only saints that will ascend up to heaven are those who lived from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture takes place, so how can the tribulation saints get up to heaven to return with all the saints as the scripture states?

   Pre Trib  also states the trib saints that are still alive at the end of the tribulation do not get glorified bodies but live on into the MK in natural bodies, but this would violate what Paul said that we shall ALL be changed. This does not mean all will be changed except the living tribulation saints.

    What I was specifically getting at was your post saying there is no scripture showing the dead in Christ going to heaven. John was talking about many people in heaven, and I am saying these were the saints of all ages who had just gotten resurrected and had ascended up to heaven so they could return with Jesus.

This would be the fulfillment of the scripture saying 'The Lord My God shall come and all the saints with thee..' All the resurrected saints are up there so they can all return with Jesus at the Second Coming.

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

No I said there are more than only one time to go onto a resurrection.  At least 2 different periods of time where the LOF can be thrown into.

Please provide the verses that clearly and unambiguously show that.  But just know, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all refute any number higher than ONE.

11 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

I have 7 for those into the Resurrection for the Just.  Not all go in at the same time.

I've already commented on all of them.  I would have to reject 1 Cor 15:23 in order to accept your list.  Again, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 refute any number higher than ONE.

[FreeGrace]

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

      Scripture states the Lord my God will come and all the saints with thee. What I am saying is that when it says 'those that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him,' means that he is descending with all the dead saints from all time to the clouds and then those that are alive and remain will meet Jesus and these that God is bringing with him in the clouds and then all descend down at the Second Coming.

Right.  1 Thess 4:13-17

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

    Pre trib states the only saints that will ascend up to heaven are those who lived from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture takes place, so how can the tribulation saints get up to heaven to return with all the saints as the scripture states?

There is no pre-trib resurrection or trip to heaven.  Or there would be verses that actually say so.

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

   Pre Trib  also states the trib saints that are still alive at the end of the tribulation do not get glorified bodies but live on into the MK in natural bodies, but this would violate what Paul said that we shall ALL be changed. This does not mean all will be changed except the living tribulation saints.

The pre-trib theory has lots of holes in it.

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

    What I was specifically getting at was your post saying there is no scripture showing the dead in Christ going to heaven. John was talking about many people in heaven, and I am saying these were the saints of all ages who had just gotten resurrected and had ascended up to heaven so they could return with Jesus.

Sorry for the confusion.  I said there are no verses that shows any RESURRECTED believers being taken to heaven with Jesus.  All the saints who are now in heaven still do not have a resurrection body.  Neither will the 2 witnesses when God calls them back up to heaven.  

All believers from all time will receive glorified immortal resurrection bodies "when He comes", which is at the Second Advent.  Just one resurrection for all believers.

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

This would be the fulfillment of the scripture saying 'The Lord My God shall come and all the saints with thee..' All the resurrected saints are up there so they can all return with Jesus at the Second Coming.

But they aren't resurrected yet.  They have left their physical bodies in the grave, but they are still awaiting THE resurrection.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

How can there be more than 1 resurrection with what 1 Cor 15:23 says?

One would have to prove from Scripture that there are some saved people who AREN'T Christ's.  That would be interesting.  But very untrue.

[transmogrified]

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There is no pre-trib resurrection or trip to heaven.  Or there would be verses that actually say so.

Agreed. Placing the resurrection rapture before the tribulation as Pre trib has done, it would make it impossible for the trib saints to be resurrected because they havn't even died yet.

19 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The pre-trib theory has lots of holes in it.

Agreed.

 

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

27 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

What I was specifically getting at was your post saying there is no scripture showing the dead in Christ going to heaven. John was talking about many people in heaven, and I am saying these were the saints of all ages who had just gotten resurrected and had ascended up to heaven so they could return with Jesus.

Sorry for the confusion.  I said there are no verses that shows any RESURRECTED believers being taken to heaven with Jesus.  All the saints who are now in heaven still do not have a resurrection body.  Neither will the 2 witnesses when God calls them back up to heaven.  

Exactly, everyone gets changed at the same time, in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye at the last trump...meaning no one gets changed before that or after it or in intervals of different time periods...And of course like your saying the prophets and believers at this point are waiting for their change to come...as it says we are sleeping in Jesus and will not awake, as Job says, until the heavens be no more, which is what happens at the 6th seal just before Jesus comes.

    Rev. 6:14 'And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together..."

26 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 All the saints who are now in heaven still do not have a resurrection body.  Neither will the 2 witnesses when God calls them back up to heaven.  

All believers from all time will receive glorified immortal resurrection bodies "when He comes", which is at the Second Advent.  Just one resurrection for all believers.

AMEN!

 

26 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

How can there be more than 1 resurrection with what 1 Cor 15:23 says?

One would have to prove from Scripture that there are some saved people who AREN'T Christ's.  That would be interesting.  But very untrue.

Yes, indeed. The scripture states that all the saints that were God's were given to Christ so there is no saints in existence that would not be 'those that are Christ's at his coming..'

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Agreed. Placing the resurrection rapture before the tribulation as Pre trib has done, it would make it impossible for the trib saints to be resurrected because they havn't even died yet.

Agreed.

 

Exactly, everyone gets changed at the same time, in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye at the last trump...meaning no one gets changed before that or after it or in intervals of different time periods...And of course like your saying the prophets and believers at this point are waiting for their change to come...as it says we are sleeping in Jesus and will not awake, as Job says, until the heavens be no more, which is what happens at the 6th seal just before Jesus comes.

    Rev. 6:14 'And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together..."

AMEN!

Yes, indeed. The scripture states that all the saints that were God's were given to Christ so there is no saints in existence that would not be 'those that are Christ's at his coming..'

Seems we're singing from the same page!   

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

No I said there are more than only one time to go onto a resurrection.  At least 2 different periods of time where the LOF can be thrown into.

I have 7 for those into the Resurrection for the Just.  Not all go in at the same time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The scripture says all are changed at the same time- not in intervals… we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump…                                                                                        

       Those who die during the tribulation are specifically stated to die in the Lord. They are part of the church that Paul said would be changed at the same time, yet pre trib says trib saints who are alive at the second coming do not get changed at all but live on in mortal bodies during the MK.

     The trib saints who are killed by the beast only get resurrected but do not ascend so they won’t be part of all the saints that come with Jesus. 

           Zech and Paul said all the saints will come with Jesus… pre trib says all the saints won’t come with Jesus Even the OT saints won’t come with Jesus cause they weren’t “church age saints”

       All the saints are not just those that live from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.  Even pre trib admits OT and those in the tribulation are saints.  Why don’t they believe Paul and Zech. saying all the saints will come with Jesus? Because it does not work in a pre trib scenario chronologically.

      Theoretically they could have included OT saints in the mix but even then it is impossible to have trib saints in the mix because the resurrection happens before they are even killed..So in no instance does pre trib have all the saints returning.

 

      No saints return pre trib and only “church age saints" return at the second coming, and it’s all because of placing 1 Thess. 4 before the second coming.  All they would have to do is put it at the second coming and everything would work. You would have everyone changed at the same time and also would have all the saints return with Jesus

Edited September 4, 2023 by transmogrified
punctuation

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The scripture says all are changed at the same time- not in intervals… we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump…  

So it is done all at Post Mill then, is that what you are saying.  For many come out from the 70th Week Alive to repopulated the earth.  When are these and their many offspring, whom are ruled with a rod of iron, some of which will be of the Just, and many of will be of the Unjust and follow Satan at the end of the Mill.

The last trumpet is not the 7th Trumpet.

In Christ

Montana Marv