Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[The Light]

15 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I not asking you to state what you think or believe, 

I am asking you to PROVE IT for me.  I'll give an example of how I learn and I am asking you to explain to me in this fashion so I can understand how you arrived at what you put forth here.
This seems to be the ONLY WAY I can come to understanding. 

 

 

This platform we are using from what I can tell will not allow me to answer your questions, step by step, because when you change color such as RED or any other color but black it blocks that feature. I use blue in some of my posts so I am probably blocking others from addressing the post point by point.

That said you post was very well explained and in context. I see the area I need to address and will do so in a different post.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

If this happens first then it is impossible for the alive believers "that remain" to be changed at the same time. 

This is pre trib.. They say the mystery was not revealed until Paul.. then Paul comes out and says we will all be changed at the same time.. Then pre trib says all doesn’t mean all it only means from Pentecost .. Paul didn’t say all from Pentecost to before the tribulation.. he said all .. it shows it’s own flaws in that all the saints do not return with Christ at the second coming.. You say you are agreeing with Paul - Paul said we are all changed at the same time you say it is impossible for all to be changed at the same time.. THIS IS WRONG!! All are changed at the same time.. saying it is impossible for all to be changed at the same time is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to what Paul said.. Paul DID NOT SAY.. “ It is impossible that we will all be changed at the same time.. Paul WE ALL SHALL BE changed at the same time .. Agreeing with Paul does mean saying the opposite of what Paul said.. He said we will- you say it’s impossible Paul is absolutely right!! We will all be changed at the same time and saying it is impossible for all to be changed at the same time is WRONG AND CONTRADICTORY TO WHAT PAUL SAID .. contradicting and agreeing with what Paul said are two different things!! Not the same!!! Different!!! You DO NOT AGREE WITH PAUL!!

 Then pre trib will change and say just the dead in Christ will be changed then they don’t even believe their own statement for the trib saints die in the Lord.. SO ITS NOT JUST FOR THOSE WHO DIE IN THE LORD, or the trib saints would have been included.. 

Then when Jesus is expressly telling them They will see this during the tribulation and they will see that and that when they see all these things come pass to know the end is near… he was talking to his true disciples! He was talking to the church. He was talking to the elect.. he was talking to the saints.. he was talking to the bride.. he was talking to his brethren.. He was not misleading them to think they would see all these things when he really knew his true believers would be raptured.. HE WAS TALKING TO HIS TRUE BELIEVERS…!!!!

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Rev 13
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Still Rev 13
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

This comes AFTER the moutains have been moved out of their places....

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

Ok. Everything is rolling along perfectly. You understand that the untimely figs being cast down at the sixth seal are the fallen angels.

Then you quote verses in Revelation 13 and make this comment:

"This comes AFTER the mountains have been moved out of their places...."

This is where the train falls off the track. You see that the Lord returns at the 6th seal, but you are not understanding that the events in Revelation 13 occur earlier in the seals, meaning before the 6th seal. So I'm telling you that the events in Revelation 13 happen before the 6th seal. Can we prove that? Sure.

So you understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH. Then the 7th seal is opened. The trumpets of wrath go in order. Then we come to the 7th trumpet.

What happens at the 7th trumpet?

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

At the 7th trumpet, it over. The mystery of God is finished.

At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, what do we see:

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. READ WITH UNDERSTANDING. That means that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. That mean Armageddon is over. That means when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

The book of Revelation reads like Genesis 7. We are given three accounts of Noah loading the animals. We are also given three accounts of the flood. However, Noah only loads the animals one time and there is only one flood. When you are reading Revelation, you are given 2 accounts of the tribulation (Revelation 6 is one account of the tribulation and Revelation 13 and 14 is another account of the tribulation). You are also given two accounts of the wrath of God. The seventh seal containing the trumpets is one account of Gods wrath and Revelation 15 and 16 are the other account of Gods wrath.

And just like the three flood accounts, there is different information in each account.

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

So John Walvoord was right.  The Rapture was given to those of the Church, not to those of the House of Israel

So John in Revelation was right not John Walvoord.. John saw the bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints.. John W doesn’t even have all the New Testament saints in the bride and no Old Testament saints at all.. Paul says all the saints will be changed at one time - John W doesn’t even have all the saints changed and the others he has changed at different times and living trib saints don’t get changed at all.... Zech has all the saints coming with Jesus -John W has only saints from Pentecost till before the tribulation..Paul has the dead in Christ raptured up to heaven.. John W does not - Jesus told his true followers when the end of the age would be - John W told us that was not the end of the age for his true disciples…Jesus told his true disciples they would see the abomination of desolation - John W said they would not see it… Jesus said to his true disciples WHEN they see all these things come to pass them to lift up their head for their redemption draws nigh.. John W says their redemption has already happened before these things occur in direct opposition to what Jesus told them…I believe what Jesus and the apostles and prophets said - not John W. 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

So at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. READ WITH UNDERSTANDING. That means that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. That mean Armageddon is over. That means when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

The way you JUMP to conclusions is just amazing.  

AT THE END OF THE 6TH SEAL we see THE PEOPLE ARE SEEING THE HEAVENS BEING OPENED.  

The question 
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

IS BEING ASKED

If his KINGDOM was set up AT THAT TIME

then NO ONE would be asking ANY questions, would they?


They would have known the answer already.  



SO, NO, CHRIST does not RETURN in the 6th, it is not till the 7th.    


I do understand that Rev 13 is in the 6th seal.  Everything that has to do with the kingdom of Satan takes place in the 6th seal.  

Just like I understand everything that has to do with Christ takes place in the 7th

Just like I understand the horses from the first 4 were released back when the book was opened and have been working ever since and the 5th seal speaks to where Gods people have gone ever since Christ rose.  





 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Ok. Everything is rolling along perfectly. You understand that the untimely figs being cast down at the sixth seal are the fallen angels.

Then you quote verses in Revelation 13 and make this comment:

"This comes AFTER the mountains have been moved out of their places...."

This is where the train falls off the track. You see that the Lord returns at the 6th seal, but you are not understanding that the events in Revelation 13 occur earlier in the seals, meaning before the 6th seal. So I'm telling you that the events in Revelation 13 happen before the 6th seal. Can we prove that? Sure.

So you understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH. Then the 7th seal is opened. The trumpets of wrath go in order. Then we come to the 7th trumpet.

What happens at the 7th trumpet?

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

At the 7th trumpet, it over. The mystery of God is finished.

At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, what do we see:

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. READ WITH UNDERSTANDING. That means that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. That mean Armageddon is over. That means when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

The book of Revelation reads like Genesis 7. We are given three accounts of Noah loading the animals. We are also given three accounts of the flood. However, Noah only loads the animals one time and there is only one flood. When you are reading Revelation, you are given 2 accounts of the tribulation (Revelation 6 is one account of the tribulation and Revelation 13 and 14 is another account of the tribulation). You are also given two accounts of the wrath of God. The seventh seal containing the trumpets is one account of Gods wrath and Revelation 15 and 16 are the other account of Gods wrath.

And just like the three flood accounts, there is different information in each account.

Rev 9 also  6th seal

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

This platform we are using from what I can tell will not allow me to answer your questions, step by step, because when you change color such as RED or any other color but black it blocks that feature. I use blue in some of my posts so I am probably blocking others from addressing the post point by point.

That said you post was very well explained and in context. I see the area I need to address and will do so in a different post.

Good information, I will keep that in mind when I am posting to you.  OR does that apply to everyone?  

[Montana Marv]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

John saw the bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints..

Only someones weak interpretation.

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus told his true followers when the end of the age would be

His true followers were all of Israel.  Matt 24 is about Israel.  The mystery of the Church was not revealed until Pentecost.

Paul stated when the end of the Church age would be at the Rapture.  Not the 2nd Coming.  And at Rev 3:10 - We miss the hour of trial which will come upon the whole world.  The "Day of the Lord" Rapture precedes the time of great tribulation., as was believed by the Thessalonians.  We are still watching and waiting, we don't know when the Bridegroom will come, but it ain't Post Trib, because it is a known time..

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus told his true disciples they would see the abomination of desolation

Jesus told those of Judea in the future they would see the A/D, still waiting on it.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

John W says their redemption has already happened before these things occur

We already have been redeemed, we have been purchased out of the market place of sin; so John Walvoord is right.  Salvation follows redemption.  Otherwise it could be considered by Works.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is pre trib.. They say the mystery was not revealed until Paul.. then Paul comes out and says we will all be changed at the same time.. Then pre trib says all doesn’t mean all it only means from Pentecost .. Paul didn’t say all from Pentecost to before the tribulation.. he said all .. it shows it’s own flaws in that all the saints do not return with Christ at the second coming.. You say you are agreeing with Paul - Paul said we are all changed at the same time you say it is impossible for all to be changed at the same time.. THIS IS WRONG!! All are changed at the same time.. saying it is impossible for all to be changed at the same time is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to what Paul said.. Paul DID NOT SAY.. “ It is impossible that we will all be changed at the same time.. Paul WE ALL SHALL BE changed at the same time .. Agreeing with Paul does mean saying the opposite of what Paul said.. He said we will- you say it’s impossible Paul is absolutely right!! We will all be changed at the same time and saying it is impossible for all to be changed at the same time is WRONG AND CONTRADICTORY TO WHAT PAUL SAID .. contradicting and agreeing with what Paul said are two different things!! Not the same!!! Different!!! You DO NOT AGREE WITH PAUL!!

 Then pre trib will change and say just the dead in Christ will be changed then they don’t even believe their own statement for the trib saints die in the Lord.. SO ITS NOT JUST FOR THOSE WHO DIE IN THE LORD, or the trib saints would have been included.. 

Then when Jesus is expressly telling them They will see this during the tribulation and they will see that and that when they see all these things come pass to know the end is near… he was talking to his true disciples! He was talking to the church. He was talking to the elect.. he was talking to the saints.. he was talking to the bride.. he was talking to his brethren.. He was not misleading them to think they would see all these things when he really knew his true believers would be raptured.. HE WAS TALKING TO HIS TRUE BELIEVERS…!!!!

Paul said the dead and alive are changed at the same time In 1 Corinthians 15. But that is not the case in 1 Thes 4. The dead in Christ rise first which means that they are changed 1st because when the rise, they are changed from corruptible to a non corruptible body. So you are in error.

[The Light]

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I show you a mystery...we (the believers) shall not all sleep (die) but we (the living and the dead) shall ALL be changed in a moment..the WE is NOT just the dead, the WE is both the living and the dead...WE (the believers) shall not all sleep...but WE (not just the dead, but ALL the believers) will be changed in a moment...

 the WE is referring to all believers and out of ALL the believers some of US will still be alive and remain...but WE (all the believers) shall all be changed...you are making it say 'I show you a mystery...those of us who are dead will all be changed in a moment, but the living will be changed at another time...THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID...the WE is NOT just the dead believers...the WE is all believers whether living or dead...By changing the meaning of rising first means Paul would be contradicting himself...but Paul was not contradicting himself. if he was meaning both the living and the dead would NOT be changed at the same time he would not have used the word WE shall all be changed...he would have said 'THE DEAD shall all be changed at the same time but THE LIVING' will be changed at another time...but he didn't...he said WE shall all be changed, and that is the way it will be.. when you quote 'it is raised in power' it does not mean it rises up into the sky with power...Jesus was raised in power, he had a glorified body some 40 days before he ascended up..HE DID NOT HAVE TO RISE UP IN THE SKY TO GET IT...NO...and we won't either. The change to immortality is NOT RELIANT on rising up in the sky..the change happens to both living and dead before either of them rises up...Paul is not contradicting himself...both groups are changed at the same time..saying it impossible for all to be changed at the same time is what is contradictory...

 

Dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Corinthians 15.

Dead rises first so the dead are changed first in 1 Thes 4 

Two different scriptures. Two different raptures.