Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Have you EVER read this?   "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:" Hebrews 11:35 KJV

There is only one Resurrection for the Just;  There is only one Resurrection for the Unjust.   Which is the better Resurrection?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THERE is NO WAY GOD is trying to make us take a LEAP FROM

GUARDING/MAINTINING OR PRESERVING SOMEONE

to a PRE TRIB RAPTURE


WHy are people FLEEING the churches????  Because they are EXPECTED to believe FAR FETCHED IDEAS THAT ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH MANY OTHER THINGS WRITTEN.  

Either we BELIEVE the words of GOD are perfect and TO BE TRUSTED as TRUTH

or we don't believe anything because the things people say ARE UNBELIEVABLE.

How do you know that.  Which "Day of the Lord" did those Thessalonians think they had missed in 2 Thes 2:1,2.  The Rapture or the 2nd Coming. One cannot miss the 2nd Coming.  For all will see it. So they thought they had missed something else; I wonder what that could be.

And the Post-Trib doctrine is unbelievable as some say.  Why see above.  The early Church was taught that the "Day of the Lord" would precede a time of Great Persecution or Tribulation.  They were just wrong on it's timing, not the sequence.

Yes, we either Believe Jesus and his Scripture, or we believe in some man made doctrine which is conflict with many other Scripture; that being Post-Trib.  Wow it can go both ways.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

FreeGrace said: 

We know from Dan 12:2, john 5:29 and Acts 24:15 that there will be a singular resurrection for the saved and a singular resurrection for the unsaved.

But how many entries are there for the First Resurrection; it is a resurrection for the Just.  Christ was the First Fruit, that is one entry.

What do you mean by "entry"?  I gave 3 verses that show there will be a resurrection for the saved and for the unsaved.  1 Cor 15:23 specifically mentions the first resurrection of the saved, which will be "when He comes" or the Second Advent.

1 Thess 4:13-17 is also about the first resurrection.  So is 2 Thess 2:1.  

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The resurrection for the Unjust is called the second resurrection or second Death.

The "second death" is another name for the Lake of Fire, which is after the GWT judgment.  Unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal physical bodies to attend the GWT.  

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Only two destinations.  No Scripture states that there is only one entry for each.

Consider this:

Rev 20:4-6  4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

v.4 mentions trib martyrs who will be resurrected (come to life) and reign with Christ during the MK.  v.5 mentions the NEXT resurrection, which will be 1,000 years after the first resurrection.  This is all the unsaved from all time.  v.6 specifically says the resurrection at the end of the Tribulation where the martyrs will come to life is the FIRST resurrection.

So, the first (v.5) and second (v.5) resurrection are 1,000 years apart.  

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

  The First Resurrection is first because in is more important.

Both are "important".  Those attending the first resurrection are said to be "blessed and holy" (v.6) which proves that resurrection is for the saved only.  Also proving that the second resurrection 1,000 years later is for the unsaved only.

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

  The Second Resurrection is least to be attractive.  Yet, one individual makes a choice; Door number One, or door number Two.

Huh?  People don't choose between which resurrection they attend.  God's plan is that the saved (believers) will attend the first one and the unsaved (unbelievers) will attend the second one.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

And the Post-Trib doctrine is unbelievable as some say. 

Amazing!  2 Thess 2:1 SAYS the second advent of Christ and the "gathering" occur together.  And Rev 20:4-6 SAYS the first resurrection is when Christ returns for the MK.

And 1 Cor 15:23 SAYS the resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

We know that ALL references to the "coming" of Christ/the Lord/etc refer to the second advent because of Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

What is totally missing from Scripture is any description of Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  Does not exist.

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What do you mean by "entry"?  I gave 3 verses that show there will be a resurrection for the saved and for the unsaved.  1 Cor 15:23 specifically mentions the first resurrection of the saved, which will be "when He comes" or the Second Advent.

The Resurrection for the Unjust; Two entries.  Rev 19:20 The two (Beast and False Prophet) were cast alive into the LOF.  Before the Mill.. The 2nd entry is post Mill after the GWT Judgment.

The Resurrection for the Just; Many entries

1. Christ the First Fruit

2. The Bride, 1 Thes 4: 16,17  John 14: 1-4 - I go to prepare a place for you (in the Fathers House).  I will come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am (the Fathers House). You know the way to the place where I am going.  This is really not a Resurrection, it is an ascension, for we have already been Crucified with Christ.

3. 144,000; Rev 14:1-5  And they sang new song before the Throne, before the 4 living Creatures. and before the 24 Elders  This is also an Ascension, for no place in Scripture says that they died.  They were redeemed from Earth.

4. Those beheaded ones souls under the Altar waiting; Rev 6:10, Rev 20:4

5.  The Two Witnesses ; Rev 11:12 - And they went up into Heaven

6. Those dead of Israel; Dan 12:13 - Go your way Daniel till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

7. The Rest of the Just Dead after the 1000 years Rev 20:5

Is this enough

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What is totally missing from Scripture is any description of Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  Does not exist.

The scripture in Rev. 19:1 shows all the dead in Christ have just been taken to heaven...this is right before Jesus and all his saints descend with him to the earth...'And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying Allelulia; Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God...for he hath judged the great whore....this is the last day resurrection of all the dead that Jesus spoke about in John 6...all those whom the father has given me he would raise them up at the last day..Also the direction needs to be clarified when he said ''Those who sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM...which way is Jesus going here? If he is bringing them UP with him, then it also means he had to first come down and then BRING them back to heaven, but there is no scripture about Jesus GOING to heaven, it is always the Second COMING, not the second GOING...the only thing that is said about anyone GOING up is that of us, first the dead RISE or go up, then the living are caught up to meet the Lord...but if you take the phrase that he will BRING those that sleep WITH him and the direction is positively stated as him DESCENDING from heaven, then when he says he will bring those that sleep WITH him it is acknowledged that the dead had to have been taken up to where Jesus is in heaven in order for him to bring them DOWN, hence the phrase, 'the Lord my God shall COME (not go) and all the saints with him...' the direction of Jesus is constantly downward to the earth...the much people in heaven are the dead of all ages who have just been resurrected ...that is how he can bring them all down with him...and of course in the pre trib scenario the trib saints cannot possibly come down with him because they only allow for them to be resurrected at the end of the tribulation, but they never ascend up so they cannot come down with Jesus....which is a violation of what Paul said, that we shall all be changed at the same time, not 'church age' saints, at one time, then OT saints and trib saints at another time...pre trib alleges that the living trib saints do not even get changed at all but enter into the MK in natural bodies...another VIOLATION...ALL WILL BE CHANGED

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Because Jesus said so. I am keeping you from that hour of trial, So I Jesus can test all those who live on the Earth.  Simple as that.  Why would anyone want to go into an hour of trial when Jesus says come home.  Then I will test those on earth, isn't going to be nice for anyone.

In Christ

Montana Marv

It was Christ Jesus that said that.  Jesus before, Christ after


Didn't you say you were already dead and resurrected in Christ?  Then you aren't on the earth to be tested in that respect, right? 

Your citizenship is already in heaven right?  So you are also kept from the hour that way, right?  

What did Jesus say?  

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:19 KJV

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:14 KJV

Why doesn't the DOCTRINE BELIEVE that?  

The doctrine should know Satan is coming and what he is going to be doing.  Knowing that, the doctrine should know that knowledge means no one would be tempted to follow after and worship and image, and that would keep them from the hour, right? 

So ALL THE INSISTING IN THE WORLD doesn't change the FACT that that is what the doctrine demands be believed
but it is BECAUSE of the DOCTRINE, and not because OF WHAT IS WRITTEN. 

If the doctrine supported WHAT WAS WRITTEN, the doctrine would disappear.

Jesus PRAYED...HE PRAYED...PRAYED TO GOD...what kind of a person would put forth a doctrine THAT WOULD TEACH THE EXACT OPPOSITE.  And if that comes across as an exaggeration then please tell me, what is the opposite of His prayer.

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 KJV

kept from the hour VS kept from evil.   How are THOSE TWO THINGS so different that one REMOVES the servants from serving with the rest of the brethren but leaving them behind, dividing the house so it cannot stand (another thing JESUS SAID) BY dividing the body Jesus died to MAKE ONE?  

So the REALITY of the situation is believe WHAT IS WRITTEN or believe what the doctrine TELLS YOU TO BELIEVE even though nothing the doctrine tells you to believe IS WRITTEN as it comes from the conclusions of men.  That is THE FACT.  

IF IT WAS written then I would have seen it too!!!  I have read all the words of the Bible, 

I HAVE SEARCHED and seeked out and prayed and reminded God of His promises and have asked TIME AFTER TIME AFTER TIME FOR SOMEONE, ANYONE, everyone TO JUST LAY IT ALL OUT STARTING WITH THE FOUNDATION, IN THE WORDS OF GOD.  

BUT somehow, 5 years later I have not gotten A SINGLE SOUL to do that very thing always referring me back to THINGS NOT found, words not written, with tons of explanations I have NOT asked for.  

Do you REALLY believe that the people who MAKE GOD NUMBER ONE, above all things all thoughts all people who STUDY and Pray and Ponder upon HIS WORDS 
are the people He BLINDS to His truths?   

Am I being DECEIVED?   If so BY WHAT?  Am I being blinded?  If so, WHY?


"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." 1 John 5:4 KJV


"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:2 KJV


There is NO POSSIBLE WAY THE DOCTRINE IS THE WILL OF GOD as the words of God are written.  How can we believe anything when so many things are rendered VOID by it? 

 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalms 12:6 KJV







































































 

[Montana Marv]

42 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 KJV

During the Church Age, Right

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalms 12:6 KJV

Correct.  John 14: 2-4 - In My Father's House are many rooms (Mansions), if it were not so I would have told you.  I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go, and prepare a place for you. I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  AS you say; Our citizenship is in heaven..In the Father's House.

When do we go?  Rev 3:10 Separation from the rest of those, who live one the earth.

51 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Am I being DECEIVED?   If so BY WHAT?  Am I being blinded?  If so, WHY?

That you have to go through a particular event.  I must go through this trial of the 70th Week, to be accounted as Worthy. I must make it to it's end, then I can be Resurrected.  What if you died tomorrow; You would be in the same boat as Matthew, Mark, Luck, John, Peter and Paul and many many others over the generations.  They all missed the 70th Week. What makes you so special above them. The Body is but ONE Body, what one experiences, all experience. You will miss all you strive to complete, Meaning your faith is by works.  One must live Day by Day; not 7 years into the Future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

The Resurrection for the Unjust; Two entries.  Rev 19:20 The two (Beast and False Prophet) were cast alive into the LOF.  Before the Mill.

So to you, an "entry" is a resurrection?  Neither the beast nor FP were resurrected.  They were STILL AIVE and were cast ALIVE into the LOF.  These 2 will physically die when cast into the LOF but will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" per Rev 20:10.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

. The 2nd entry is post Mill after the GWT Judgment.

This is the singular resurrection of the unsaved.   

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

The Resurrection for the Just; Many entries

Again, just one.  1 Cor 15:23 is clear.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

1. Christ the First Fruit

Yes, Jesus Christ is the FIRST human to receive an immortal glorified resurrection body.  And ALL the rest of the saved will be resurrected into the same kind of body "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.  1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 2:1.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

2. The Bride, 1 Thes 4: 16,17  John 14: 1-4 - I go to prepare a place for you (in the Fathers House).  I will come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am (the Fathers House). You know the way to the place where I am going.  This is really not a Resurrection, it is an ascension, for we have already been Crucified with Christ.

John 14:1-3 isn't about any resurrection, much less a glorified trip to heaven.  

1  “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.

2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus was speaking directly to remaining 11 apostles, as Judas had already left.  So v.2 is a guarantee for the 11 that there would be a place for them IN heaven when they died.

v.3 is a promise that when Jesus will bring with Him them at the Second Advent.  

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

3. 144,000; Rev 14:1-5  And they sang new song before the Throne, before the 4 living Creatures. and before the 24 Elders  This is also an Ascension, for no place in Scripture says that they died.  They were redeemed from Earth.

There is no mention of either a resurrection, or a glorified trip to heaven.  Rev 14 is a look-ahead chapter about the Second Advent.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

4. Those beheaded ones souls under the Altar waiting; Rev 6:10, Rev 20:4

These are the souls of believers who have been martyred, probably through the history of mankind.  Not just the Trib.  The martyrs in the Trib are noted in Rev 20:4.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

5.  The Two Witnesses ; Rev 11:12 - And they went up into Heaven

No mention of a resurrection body.  They were physically resurrected but 1 Cor 15:23 prevents any believer being resurrected into a glorified body before the whole group will be.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

6. Those dead of Israel; Dan 12:13 - Go your way Daniel till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

Prety vague.  The "end" here would be the singular resurrection of ALL saved people.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

7. The Rest of the Just Dead after the 1000 years Rev 20:5

Again, this refers to all the unsaved in human history.  

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Is this enough

Just one resurrection for ALL believers.  1 Cort 15:23 is very clear about that.

"those who belong to Him" cannot refer to only some of the saved.  

I verify what people say using the Berean verification method.  I search the Scriptures daily to see if what you say is true.  And none of the verses you cited mentions what you are claiming.  You are only assuming they include resurrections of different times.

But 1 Cor 15:23 refutes that claim.

You can't get around that verse.  Nor have you tried yet.  But feel free to explain the words "when He comes" and "those who belong to Him", if you disagree with what I have said about them.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

FreeGrace said: 

What is totally missing from Scripture is any description of Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  Does not exist.

The scripture in Rev. 19:1 shows all the dead in Christ have just been taken to heaven

Let's take a peek.

1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 

2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” 

3 And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.” 

4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: “Amen, Hallelujah!” 

5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!” 

6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

Well?  No mention of a resurrection, or a trip to heaven.  As I said.

What we have in this passage is all the saints who have already dead, from Adam on, which is near the end of the Tribulation.  This is how I know that:

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 

8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) 

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Notice the tense in v.7 and 9.  "made herself ready".  Doesn't sound like something that has already occurred.  Most pre-trib proponents claim the wedding supper will be in heaven just after "the rapture".  And v.9 also shows what is about to take place.

So the wedding is still future in Rev 19.  

Then, v.11-16 is the preparation of all the dead saints in heaven for their trip back to earth with Jesus.  Notice what they are wearing:  compare v.8 and 14.  The same thing.

They first prepare for the wedding supper and then accompany Christ to earth, in which He ends the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon.

 

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

...this is right before Jesus and all his saints descend with him to the earth...'And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying Allelulia; Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God...for he hath judged the great whore....this is the last day resurrection of all the dead that Jesus spoke about in John 6...all those whom the father has given me he would raise them up at the last day..Also the direction needs to be clarified when he said ''Those who sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM...which way is Jesus going here? If he is bringing them UP with him, then it also means he had to first come down and then BRING them back to heaven, but there is no scripture about Jesus GOING to heaven, it is always the Second COMING, not the second GOING...the only thing that is said about anyone GOING up is that of us, first the dead RISE or go up, then the living are caught up to meet the Lord...but if you take the phrase that he will BRING those that sleep WITH him and the direction is positively stated as him DESCENDING from heaven, then when he says he will bring those that sleep WITH him it is acknowledged that the dead had to have been taken up to where Jesus is in heaven in order for him to bring them DOWN, hence the phrase, 'the Lord my God shall COME (not go) and all the saints with him...' the direction of Jesus is constantly downward to the earth...the much people in heaven are the dead of all ages who have just been resurrected ...that is how he can bring them all down with him...and of course in the pre trib scenario the trib saints cannot possibly come down with him because they only allow for them to be resurrected at the end of the tribulation, but they never ascend up so they cannot come down with Jesus....which is a violation of what Paul said, that we shall all be changed at the same time, not 'church age' saints, at one time, then OT saints and trib saints at another time...pre trib alleges that the living trib saints do not even get changed at all but enter into the MK in natural bodies...another VIOLATION...ALL WILL BE CHANGED

Very difficult to follow anything in this long single paragraph.  Could you separate out the paragraphs?  And periods instead of "....".

Thanks.