Montana Marv Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 7 hours ago, transmogrified said: All the saints are not just those that live from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even pre trib admits OT and those in the tribulation are saints. Why don’t they believe Paul and Zech. saying all the saints will come with Jesus? Because it does not work in a pre trib scenario chronologically Saints are the Elect, those predestined. But there are many groups which are different within these terms. The Bride is separated from all (Indwelt by the H.S.); O.T. Saints, Those just of Israel, 70th Week Saints, those Saints at the end of the Mill. All different groups, yet all Saints/Elect. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 34 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: Saints are the Elect, those predestined. But there are many groups which are different within these terms. The Bride is separated from all (Indwelt by the H.S.); O.T. Saints, Those just of Israel, 70th Week Saints, those Saints at the end of the Mill. All different groups, yet all Saints/Elect. In Christ Montana Marv If they are all saints as you say then according to zech. And Paul all the saints come with Jesus at the Second coming which does not happen in pre trib at the front, back or in between…I am not saying it’s all at the end of the mk.. all saints rule with Christ for 1000 years,, how would they rule with him for a 1000 years if they are not even resurrected till the end of the MK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 7 minutes ago, transmogrified said: If they are all saints as you say then according to zech. And Paul all the saints come with Jesus at the Second coming which does not happen in pre trib at the front, back or in between…I am not saying it’s all at the end of the mk.. all saints rule with Christ for 1000 years,, how would they rule with him for a 1000 years if they are not even resurrected till the end of the MK? You stated all were transformed at the same time, last Trump. One has to be in heaven to return with Christ in the clouds at the Second Coming. When did the bride get there. The bride did not go through that hour of testing of Rev 3.10. They went up. All those of the bride are transformed at the same time. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: The scripture says all are changed at the same time- not in intervals… we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump… Correct. 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: Those who die during the tribulation are specifically stated to die in the Lord. They are part of the church that Paul said would be changed at the same time, yet pre trib says trib saints who are alive at the second coming do not get changed at all but live on in mortal bodies during the MK. Rather, 1 Cor 15:52 is a parallel passage 1 Thess 4:13-17 but only mentions the living believers at the time of the resurrection. They will be "changed" in the twinkling of the eye, which refers to their receiving a resurrection body as well. 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: The trib saints who are killed by the beast only get resurrected but do not ascend so they won’t be part of all the saints that come with Jesus. No believer ascends to heaven in a resurrection body. All the saved will be resurrected "when he comes" back at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23. 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: Zech and Paul said all the saints will come with Jesus… pre trib says all the saints won’t come with Jesus Even the OT saints won’t come with Jesus cause they weren’t “church age saints” But 1 Cor 15:23 says "those who belong to Him" will be in that singular resurrection, so that means ALL believers from Adam forward. Both OT saints and NT saints have believed in the work of the Messiah on the cross for salvation, so all belong to Him. 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: All the saints are not just those that live from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even pre trib admits OT and those in the tribulation are saints. Why don’t they believe Paul and Zech. saying all the saints will come with Jesus? Because it does not work in a pre trib scenario chronologically. Correct. 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: No saints return pre trib and only “church age saints" return at the second coming, and it’s all because of placing 1 Thess. 4 before the second coming. There is no mention of the advent in 1 Thess 4, but there is in 2 Thess 2:1. Same event. 8 hours ago, transmogrified said: All they would have to do is put it at the second coming and everything would work. You would have everyone changed at the same time and also would have all the saints return with Jesus Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: So it is done all at Post Mill then, is that what you are saying. For many come out from the 70th Week Alive to repopulated the earth. It seems about 50% of the world's population will be killed during the Tribulation, if you understand Rev 6:8 as population rather than geography, with 9:18 which clearly says 1/3 of mankind will be killed. So at the end of the Tribulation, there will be nearly 50% of unbelieving mortals still alive. They will be the ones who will repopulate the earth during the MK and they will be the ones who Jesus will rule with a "rod of iron". This explains WHY the whole earth will rebel at the end of the MK and attack Jerusalem when Satan is released and again deceives the whole earth. Fire comes down from heaven, kills ALL the living unbelievers, and then all unbelievers will be resurrected to face the GWT judgment, and then be cast into the LOF. 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: When are these and their many offspring, whom are ruled with a rod of iron, some of which will be of the Just, and many of will be of the Unjust and follow Satan at the end of the Mill. None of the living mortals who survive the Tribulation will be "of the Just", because ALL believers will be resurrected into immortal glorified bodies "when He comes" back at the Second Advent, as 1 Cor 15:23 says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 The dead rise first so these are the ones who go to heaven fulfilling Rev 19 John heard a voice of much people in heaven… all the saints from all time were there so God could bring those that sleep in Jesus with him…which is when the Lord comes and all the saints with him.. they all have to be there in order for God to bring them with him.. but they are not all there because pre trib excludes the OT saints and the Trib saints from being caught up They all come down with Christ which is manifest it’s not a pre trib event as pre trib has no saints at COMING with him when he descends.. pre trib has Jesus GOING UP and Jesus is only COMING DOWN, never GOING UP… It also states that the heavens must receive him till the restitution of all things which of course does not happen until the second coming … so to even say “And the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout” automatically puts this descent at the second coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: Saints are the Elect, those predestined. But there are many groups which are different within these terms. The Bride is separated from all (Indwelt by the H.S.); O.T. Saints, Those just of Israel, 70th Week Saints, those Saints at the end of the Mill. All different groups, yet all Saints/Elect. Does not matter. 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly that "those who belong to Him" will be in the singular resurrection. There is only 1 resurrection for the saved. Every verse that is about resurrection uses the singular. There are no "phases", etc. Just one. Dan 12:2, John 5:29, Acts 24:15. Jesus spoke of THE resurrection when referring to the saved. There are no verses that support multiple resurrections. It is a construct to try to make a pre-trib rapture work. Without multiple resurrections, pre-trib rapture cannot work. And there is only one, at the end of the Tribulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 21 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: You stated all were transformed at the same time, last Trump. One has to be in heaven to return with Christ in the clouds at the Second Coming. When did the bride get there. Most of the "Bride" will already be IN heaven at the end of the Tribulation since one has to die to go to heaven. Rev 19 describes ALL the dead saints in heaven preparing for the wedding supper, and then accompanying Christ the king back to earth. It makes perfect sense that the wedding supper AND Bema to occur on earth when the King returns. What a way to kick off His kingdom!! 21 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: The bride did not go through that hour of testing of Rev 3.10. They went up. There is NO mention in any verse about Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Rev 3:10 doesn't say they miss the tribulation. They will miss the testing. Recall the Jews in Egypt and the 10 plagues of Egypt. Did they go through the plagues? No. They weren't "tested". God can do the exact same thing for the faithful believers who are promised they won't go through the testing of the trib. Doesn't say or mean they won't be in it. 21 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: All those of the bride are transformed at the same time. Per 1 Cor 15:23, ALL believers from all time will be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes", a direct reference to the Second Advent. In fact, every reference to the "coming" of Jesus IS the Second Advent. Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. What else can this be referring to? Jesus comes to earth twice; first time as a baby to become the Suffering Servant and Savior, and second time as King. Heb 9:28 makes that clear. If there were a pre-trib resurrection and rapture, Heb 9:28 would HAVE TO SAY 'appear a third time'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 The dead in Christ (Bride) rise first. Those alive in Christ (Bride) rise next and meet them in the air. Harpozo. Rapture. Those alive in Christ are not resurrected, they ascend. The Bride has already been crucified with Christ, buried in his baptism, arose with Christ all by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our resurrection is already complete. We all ascend and receive our Glorified body. In Christ Montana Marv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 4, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2023 1 minute ago, FreeGrace said: Most of the "Bride" will already be IN heaven at the end of the Tribulation since one has to die to go to heaven. Rev 19 describes ALL the dead saints in heaven preparing for the wedding supper, and then accompanying Christ the king back to earth. It makes perfect sense that the wedding supper AND Bema to occur on earth when the King returns. What a way to kick off His kingdom!! There is NO mention in any verse about Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Rev 3:10 doesn't say they miss the tribulation. They will miss the testing. Recall the Jews in Egypt and the 10 plagues of Egypt. Did they go through the plagues? No. They weren't "tested". God can do the exact same thing for the faithful believers who are promised they won't go through the testing of the trib. Doesn't say or mean they won't be in it. Per 1 Cor 15:23, ALL believers from all time will be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes", a direct reference to the Second Advent. In fact, every reference to the "coming" of Jesus IS the Second Advent. Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. What else can this be referring to? Jesus comes to earth twice; first time as a baby to become the Suffering Servant and Savior, and second time as King. Heb 9:28 makes that clear. If there were a pre-trib resurrection and rapture, Heb 9:28 would HAVE TO SAY 'appear a third time'. The Bride is not resurrected, it ascends. We have already been crucified with Christ. Been buried in his baptism, arose with Him all by the power of the Holy Spirit. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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