Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

FreeGrace said: 

These people were raised back to life again, but NOT resurrection life.  There is no evidence for such a speculation.  Remember Paul who brought Eutycus back to life?  His physical body received life again.  But not resurrection life.

yes of course...everyone pre second coming who was raised from the dead like Lazarus was raised in mortal bodies...but at the second coming all will be raised incorruptible...

[transmogrified]

13 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

FreeGrace said: 

These people were raised back to life again, but NOT resurrection life.  There is no evidence for such a speculation.  Remember Paul who brought Eutycus back to life?  His physical body received life again.  But not resurrection life.

yes of course...everyone pre second coming who was raised from the dead like Lazarus was raised in mortal bodies...but at the second coming all will be raised incorruptible...

As per 1 Cor. 15:52..."...for the trumpet shall sound, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED...'

Both the living and the dead will be changed to incorruptible bodies...both bodies will then ascend...the dead to heaven and the living to the clouds to meet them...meaning the dead will ascend to heaven in incorruptible bodies...!

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

The seventh trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world come down...this is the fulfillment of Daniel...And I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of days did set...unto him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people nations and languages should serve him...this is the second coming and it is fulfilled at the 7th trumpet...this is when we are changed and rise up, this is when the two prophets were changed and rose up...this is when mortality is swallowed up in life, we are all changed at the same time...the two prophets were changed at the seventh trumpet, so will everyone else...after the change the dead in Christ are raised as shown by the two prophets, and then we the living will rise up to meet them in the clouds...the living will meet the two prophets in the clouds as God will be bringing  those that sleep in Jesus with him ...along with the two prophets the living will meet all the other resurrected saints of all time...so there will be Isaiah, Daniel, Peter, Paul and Mary.

  The seventh trumpet is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he gives rewards to his servants the prophets...this is the day of judgment at the seventh trumpet...this is the day he sets up his kingdom on this earth...this is the day he will say to the sheep enter into the joy of the lord...this is the day of our beginning to reign with him for the 1000 years...these subjects are line upon line, precept upon precept they are not in chronological order...at the first of revelation we see he is coming with clouds and every eye will see him...at the last of Revelation we see him saying, behold I come quickly...they are like snapshots of your trip to Yellowstone or something...here you are standing by the bear...here you in front of Old Faithful..here you are at the lodge...ect...ect..each snapshot contains its own context...so when he is talking about the 7th trumpet and the kingdoms coming down at that trumpet, everything else must line up within that context.

In other words we can't say the 7th trumpet sounds and the kingdoms come down and then say it didn't happen at the seventh trumpet and is yet to come...NO...it happens at the seventh trumpet and we are all changed and both the living and the dead are changed, the dead ascend up to heaven in glorified bodies and the living will meet them later when they come in the clouds, but the change has already happened...this is why what Paul said is so much important...he set up the criteria and holds every view in check...pre trib violates the criteria as does every other construct that has multiple resurrections and raptures...but just as it solves the problem of the resurrection and rapture only happening one time, it also solves the problem of when everyone gets their glorified bodies...AT THE LAST TRUMP and seeing that is the case, the change that Paul said will happen to all at the last trump occurs BEFORE anyone ascends up to heaven...as it states the trumpet shall sound...first thing....and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...second thing...WHEN the dead are resurrected they are in INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES...they do not get it later...they get it when the trumpet sounds...same with the living...ALL get changed AT THE LAST TRUMPET...this is before ANYONE ascends up...but this is crucial because it proves the dead are NOT RAISED IN CORRUPTIBLE BODIES... so when the two prophets were resurrected they HAD INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE...THEY WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE..  so whenever they are resurrected they are given an incorruptible body...which goes without saying they must first be resurrected before they ascend up to heaven...           

The singular resurrection of all believers will occur "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.  The trumpet judgments occur between the seal and bowl judgments.  

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

As per 1 Cor. 15:52..."...for the trumpet shall sound, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED...'

Both the living and the dead will be changed to incorruptible bodies...both bodies will then ascend...the dead to heaven and the living to the clouds to meet them...meaning the dead will ascend to heaven in incorruptible bodies...!

No one ascends to heaven in a resurrection body, or there would be clear verses about that, esp texts that describe the resurrection of believers.

Rather, we see clearly in Rev 20 that the trib martyrs will be resurrected and then reign with Christ.  They are rewarded with reigning by their martyrdom.

Rev 20 mentions both resurrections; of the saved and unsaved, and places the MK between them.  Rev 20:5.

[transmogrified]

I just gave you a scripture of the dead shall be raised incorruptible that is plain, and to the point they’re not raised any other way, except in incorruption

[transmogrified]

The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible…

[transmogrified]

Raised incorruptible does not mean they will be raised in a corruptible body- Raised incorruptible means just the opposite.. the dead will be raised incorruptible- NOT CORRUPTIBLE!

[DeighAnn]

Is there a verse where we are told when we are raised up IT IS NOT in a body?  I've been looking for one, and although we have the spirit returning to God who gave it it isn't written sans body.  


As for the MYSTERY about the alive being changed at the last trump

the DEAD being raised IS NOT A MYSTERY ON ANY level, so there would be no reason to conclude anything other than the dead are raised up and most certainly no reason to conclude that those who have followed Him have become the dead at that point.  

SO, what is needed is spirits in their bodies after their death.  And we have just that starting with the verse that proved the dead are not written one way for the dead and another for the never die who all experience the death as in Adam all die first death, except the catching up of the alive on the last day. 


So, the same verse WHICH PROVED THE ERROR I MADE on the dead needing to be FEMININE 


turns out to be the verse proving we receive a spiritual body at the death of the first body, whether we follow Him to heaven or we descend into hell.  

All this got me wondering, Why wasn't the question men asked 'concerning the resurrection of the dead'

something more like it is TODAY...

Are we raised in a body or do we wait for one that we have to return to the earth for?

Or will we be raised up twice, first time as 'spirit' and on last day in a body?

Or will we be returning for this body, reformed from the dust all coming back together?

Or how does a flesh and blood body live without blood? 
 

WHEN DID THE QUESTION GO FROM 'WHAT BODY' TO 'WHETHER or not A BODY AT ALL'?  Just seems...strange.

Anyways, all this led me down a different path yet somehow ends up in the same place anyhow, go figure.  


First with MOSES, SAYING
4012 [e]    Περὶ
peri    Concerning    Prep
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    now    Conj
3588 [e]    τῶν
tōn    the    Art-GMP
3498 [e]    νεκρῶν
nekrōn    dead,    Adj-GMP
3754 [e]    ὅτι
hoti    that    Conj


1453 [e]    ἐγείρονται,
egeirontai    they rise,    V-PIM/P-3P
Verb Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Plural

if this were a FUTURE raising up of the dead, it would be written with a future not a present verb, FEEL FREE TO SHOW ME IF THIS IS ALSO A MISTAKE.

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

3756 [e]    οὐκ
ouk    not    Adv
314 [e]    ἀνέγνωτε
anegnōte    have you read    V-AIA-2P
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    in    Prep
3588 [e]    τῇ
tē    the    Art-DFS
976 [e]    βίβλῳ
biblō    book    N-DFS
3475 [e]    Μωϋσέως
Mōuseōs    of Moses,    N-GMS
1909 [e]    ἐπὶ
epi    on    Prep
3588 [e]    τοῦ
tou    the    Art-GMS
942 [e]    Βάτου
Batou    bush,    N-GMS
4459 [e]    πῶς
pōs    how    Conj
3004 [e]    εἶπεν
eipen    spoke    V-AIA-3S
846 [e]    αὐτῷ
autō    to him    PPro-DM3S
3588 [e]    ὁ
ho    -    Art-NMS
2316 [e]    Θεὸς
Theos    God,    N-NMS
3004 [e]    λέγων
legōn    saying,    V-PPA-NMS
1473 [e]    Ἐγὼ
Egō    I [am]    PPro-N1S
3588 [e]    ὁ
ho    the    Art-NMS
2316 [e]    Θεὸς
Theos    God    N-NMS
11 [e]    Ἀβραὰμ
Abraam    of Abraham,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
3588 [e]    ‹ὁ›
ho    the    Art-NMS
2316 [e]    Θεὸς
Theos    God    N-NMS
2464 [e]    Ἰσαὰκ
Isaak    of Isaac,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
3588 [e]    ‹ὁ›
ho    the    Art-NMS
2316 [e]    Θεὸς
Theos    God    N-NMS
2384 [e]    Ἰακώβ;
Iakōb    of Jacob’    N-GMS

 

Bodies here, bodies there we are in bodies everywhere.  

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KNEES AND TONGUES UNDER THE EARTH
2709. katachthonios 
Strong's Concordance
katachthonios: under the earth
Original Word: καταχθόνιος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: katachthonios
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-akh-thon'-ee-os)
Definition: under the earth
Usage: under the earth, subterranean, infernal.
under the earth.
From kata and chthon (the ground); subterranean, i.e. Infernal (belonging to the world of departed spirits) -- under the earth.

And proving TO ME at least, confession is good for the soul, as I was quickly reminded of this vision 

A VISION I don't believe was given to be a stumbling block, nor confusion, but GOD proving we are raised up in body and HE is the God of the living


1And He said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for Thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My beloved Son: hear Him.

8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9And as they came down from the mountain, He charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.


Bodies vs no bodies

Bodies
1 Knees and tongues under the earth
2 Men who have died seen alive and speaking, in vision YET THE POINT IS made
  
IF WE ARE NOT RAISED UP IN A BODY THIS 'VISION' BECOMES A STUMBLING BLOCK at least to me.  Surely it isn't to SUGGEST we ARE NOT raised in a body.  These we see we see in bodies BEFORE  before the last day.

3. our brethren the angel in heaven with feet
4. with what body?  not  a body or not
5. sown a natural, raised a spiritual.  Not the body that will be
6 this body dissolved, put off this tabernacle, to be clothed with body not made with hands eternal in heaven
7. souls under the altar awarded robes
8. no verses of air ever doing anything or being any where
9. The mystery is of what happens to the we who are alive, not the we who have died as the entire chapter has just covered that
10. If the dead don't rise, the Christ isn't risen
11. The burning bush God the God of the living not the dead so Abraham can't be waiting to be raised up on the last day when the dead rise
12 no mention of 2 separate 'raising ups' after 1st death
13  every man in his own order
14 the living will not precede the dead
15 Prayer of Jesus that we would be with Him, not our 'spirit' would be with Him

Anyway, off to clear this error in a couple other posts.  Again, please accept my apology for bringing forth confusion on the part of it.  

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The dead in Christ will be changed at the same time the living will be changed at the Last Trump and not before...

Except the dead being raised up wasn't a mystery.  The whole chapter had just discussed what happened to those who receive the gift of salvation when they suffer the first death.  There are two bodies, one is sown the other is raised.  The mystery has to do with what happens to those who REMAIN to the end. 

The dead being raised doesn't have anything to do with them.   

The dead rise FIRST, but doesn't say they are RAISED in glory and in power and in incorruption.  Just imperishable.  

But those who are changed put on immortality.  Why don't the dead that rise?  Those who return with Christ rose up the first time in glory and power and received their immortality.   

Repeating these same things over and over doesn't seem to be doing anything but making you dig in your heels so I will bow out and you do you, unless there are posts you have already put forth.  After that I don't see anything productive coming at this point.  Thank you for the debate, it brought back some things forgotten and cleared up an error I made.  So again, thank you

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Is there a verse where we are told when we are raised up IT IS NOT in a body?  I've been looking for one, and although we have the spirit returning to God who gave it it isn't written sans body.

Every resurrection involves a body.  Lazarus was raised back into his mortal body.  Same as all the people who came out of the graves when Jesus was crucified.  At THE resurrection of all the saved, we have our physical bodies back, but glorified and immortal.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said: