angels4u Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2006 The pattern was set with Adam and Eve. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2006 [The fact is that God allowed men to have more than one wife, and not the other way around If somebody wants to sin,does God allow them to do that? Yes we all have a free will to obey or disobey but will it bring a blessing if we disobey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2006 but blessed those who were in polygamous relationships. Who did he bless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 [The fact is that God allowed men to have more than one wife, and not the other way around If somebody wants to sin,does God allow them to do that? Yes we all have a free will to obey or disobey but will it bring a blessing if we disobey? A sin is a transgression of the law. Since God allowed for polygamy as has already been shown, I don't see how you can make that claim. There are many more examples besides those already given to not only show God allowed it, but blessed those who were in polygamous relationships. God allowing for it, does not mean it is the ideal. Allowing for it, does not mean it is acceptable in his sight. The fact that God blessed Hannah was not a stamp of approval on the polygamy of Elkinah. God was responding to Hannah's faith, and prayer. God made concessions for certain situations that were never the ideal. That hardly justifies polygamy. The polygamy was not and is not the biblical pattern for marriage. The biblical pattern is one man and one woman who get married and stay married until they die. That is the ideal. Polygamy was never held up as an equally acceptable and valid marriage arrangement. It is never blessed by God ANYWHERE. Men may have been blessed by God in spite of it, but never because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2006 show me where in scripture God says that He gave david wives only in name's sake and that he was not allowed to be intimate with them? you're reading something into scripture which isn't there. God said He gave david his wives to take unto his bosom. Yes, God had given them to him. You are assuming that it means that God gave them to be his wives in the absolute sense. God gave to David the entire house of Saul. Unto your bosom does not necessarily mean what you are implying it means. You are taking "bosom" to mean, that God gave them to David to be intimate with, or to love romantically which is not what is being conveyed. It was customary for a King to receive the harem of his predecessor. It was a symbol in that part of the world of the complete sovereign, absolute regal authority of the succeeding monarch. There is NO evidence that David ever married the women of Saul's house whatsoever, in fact it was not the custom. Just like everything else, that was Saul's, his maid servants, man servants, cattle, flocks, monetary wealth, estates, etc. It was just an emblem of authority to the people that David was indeed King over all of Israel. God then took the rest of solomon's wives and gave them to another man to lie with, and not just to lie with, but to lie with in broad daylight to further punish david. if david had not been given these wives with the intent to be intimate with them, why would God feel the need to let david experience the anguish of seeing or knowing that they were sleeping with someone else? I think you have stories confused. God said that he would raise up evil in David's house and cause his neighbor to have relations with his wives (2 Sam 12:11). It was eventually fulfilled by Absalom. Because the harem, was the sign of a Kings authority, Absalom's sin was really meant to disgrace his father. It was an act of defamation to take the King's harem and openly have relations with them in broad daylight. It was not anguish of spurned romance that David was subjected to. It was the insult and injurious actions of his own son humiliating him in the presence of people of Israel, that David was dealing with. Absalom's actions were meant to defy David as King. sin of giving one man all of solomon's wives with the expressed intent that the new husband be intimate with each? your position denies God's very word. What a crock. Jesus didn't see it your way. He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (Matthew 19:8-9) If Polygamy is acceptable then Jesus' argument fails! According to Jesus an improper divorce does not nullify a marriage. If the 1st marriage is still in force , ANY subsequent marriage is adultery, not simply polygamy. There was a subset of ancient Judaism that allowed polygamy. At the same time it was considered adulterous for a woman to consort with more than one man. Jesus in this passage removes the doublestandard. A man with two wives is just as adulterous as woman having more than one husband. Jesus also said this: And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19:5-6) Jesus taught that a man is cleave unto his wife and become one flesh with her. Jesus consistently saw marriage properly as being between one man and one woman. That is the ideal. Which leads to my second point. In Romans 7, Paul uses the same example but applies it to the wife when he says So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. (Romans 7:3) Thirdly in 1 Tim 3:2 and Titus 1:6 the qualifications for Godly leaders includes monogamy. Furthermore, the Scriptures admonish us to follow the example of our Godly leaders (1 Cor 4:6; 1 Cor 11:1 Phil 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess 1:6,7; 2 Thess 3:7,9; 1 Tim 4:12; Tit 2:7; 1 Pet 5:3) This would include monogamy which in both lists of qualifications appears 2nd from the top. Excellent scriptural points, Shiloh357. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Jacob had 4 wives, not 2 as is commonly thought. And 3 of them were sisters, not 2. The 3 sisters were Rachel, Leah, and Bilhah, and the fourth woman was called Zilpah. Read the story of Jacob carefully and you'll see this. Anyway, all of Jacob's children with the exception of Benjamin were already born at this point. He had 4 wives at the time God blessed him, and changed his name to "Israel". No, Jacob had only two wives. Bilhah and Zilpah were concubines. I do not see where they are ever referred to as wives. In Gen. 35 Reuben went in the tent to have relations with Bilhah, and it still refers to her as a concubine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheya joie Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2006 Jacob had 4 wives, not 2 as is commonly thought. And 3 of them were sisters, not 2. The 3 sisters were Rachel, Leah, and Bilhah, and the fourth woman was called Zilpah. Read the story of Jacob carefully and you'll see this. Anyway, all of Jacob's children with the exception of Benjamin were already born at this point. He had 4 wives at the time God blessed him, and changed his name to "Israel". Huh? No, Bilhah was not one of the sisters; she was a maidservant, just like Zilpah. Gen 29:16 And Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. See? Only two daughters, not three. I think your confusion comes in here: Gen 29:29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid. Are you punctuating this as "And Laban gave to Rachel, his daughter Bilhah, his handmaid to be her maid"? Because the two appositives go with the personal names they follow. That is, Rachel is his daughter, and Bilhah is his handmaid. Only two daughters, not three. This verse is parallel with the verse earlier where Laban gives a maidservant to the elder daughter Leah: Gen 29:24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid. Except that here, the phrase is given as "his daughter Leah." Yeah, that's off the topic. But I just had to correct that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted September 4, 2006 God of his own will chose to use all 4 women to bring about the 12 tribes of Israel. Had he been wanting to show his displeasure at what Jacob had done, he would not have done so. But does this mean that God isn't displeased at the idea of multiple wives today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheya joie Posted September 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2006 Jacob had 4 wives, not 2 as is commonly thought. And 3 of them were sisters, not 2. The 3 sisters were Rachel, Leah, and Bilhah, and the fourth woman was called Zilpah. Read the story of Jacob carefully and you'll see this. Anyway, all of Jacob's children with the exception of Benjamin were already born at this point. He had 4 wives at the time God blessed him, and changed his name to "Israel". No, Jacob had only two wives. Bilhah and Zilpah were concubines. I do not see where they are ever referred to as wives. In Gen. 35 Reuben went in the tent to have relations with Bilhah, and it still refers to her as a concubine. Then that would even further refute your own argument. If they were mere concubines, yet God did not rebuke him one way or another. There is never one mention of God rebuking Jacob for polygamy. According to my Webster's software: concubine 1 Law a woman who cohabits with a man although not legally married to him 2 in certain polygamous societies, a secondary wife, of inferior social and legal status I often find it helpful in my own mind, while reading Scripture, to substitute for the word "concubine," the phrase "slave wife." Which brings up something I've been thinking of while reading this thread: in the OT law, God made allowance not only for the practice of polygamy, but also for the practices of divorce and of slavery. Does this mean then that God approves of polygamy, divorce, or slavery? A question to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 You stated Shiloh that God never blessed anyone who was in polygamy. I would contend he did just that with Jacob. No, I stated that God did not bless Polygamy. I did say that God blessed men inspite of polygamy though. God NEVER treated Polygamy as an acceptable or equally valid marriage arrangement as one man and one woman. Furthermore, God worked his plan out in Jacob's situation. No, Jacob had only two wives. Bilhah and Zilpah were concubines. I do not see where they are ever referred to as wives. In Gen. 35 Reuben went in the tent to have relations with Bilhah, and it still refers to her as a concubine. Then that would even further refute your own argument. If they were mere concubines, yet God did not rebuke him one way or another. There is never one mention of God rebuking Jacob for polygamy. No it does not refute anything I have said. Just because God did not "rebuke" him does not mean that it was acceptable. Jesus tells us what the ideal was from the beginning. God also does not shower him with accolades either for having concubines. The text simply states what happened. It does not offer a moral judgement on what was done, but arguing from silence simply does not work. We know what the ideal was and is, though. We also know from history the kind of pain and humiliation women experienced in mulitple wife situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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