Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

When Jesus says ALL will hear His voice, THAT is - THE- resurrection. All means ALL. It seems to me you are reading things into it. There are some "out of silence" references you made. It will turn into another Frankenstein.

Rev 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So here we have the resurrection at the seventh/last trumpet. Some are rewarded, some are destroyed. No special groups.

Amen!

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

I get that. What I can't do is ignore Rev 2o:4 and Rev 7:13-14.

Hello again...:) 

     The debate on this subject has almost exclusively ended up with Rev. 20:4 versus Dan. 12:3.

    There is an explanation for Rev. 20:4 as to who the 'rest of the dead' are. First, if we take all the scriptures as stated, it is easy to see both the good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming.

As Matthew 13;40 states- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

It does not say 'As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,so shall it be in the end of the next age...it says IN the end of THIS age. And we know if the scripture wanted to say 'the age to come' it could have done so as it did when he said those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost has no forgiveness, neither in THIS AGE, nor in the AGE TO COME.

Another thing is how the angel answers Daniel when he asks, 'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders,' and the angel answers him...'It shall be for a time, times and a half, and WHEN he (anti-christ) has accomplished to scatter (break in pieces) the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.'

The word 'finish' in Strongs is #3615 

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be complete, be at an end, be finished

to be accomplished, be fulfilled, to come to an end, cause to cease

 

For example, World War 2 ended Sept. 2, 1945...there was a war going on before this, but it came to its end on Sept. 2, 1945. This is the date the war ended.

In like manner, we can say the beast wages war against the saints for 3.5 years...there is a point in time when he comes into power, and then there is a point when scripture says he 'Comes to HIS END,' and none shall help him. When is this specific time? It is at the Second Coming. Just like there was a specific time when World War 2 ended, there is a specific time when the beast is destroyed.

It wouldn't matter if he was waging war against the saints for 20 years, or for 6 months, the point is that the war is over at the Second Coming and he is cast into the lake of fire.

The issue here is to pinpoint THAT DATE. Just like we can say World War 2 ended Sept. 2 1945, we can say the 3.5 year war of the beast against the saints ENDS at the Second Coming. Just like World War 2 does not continue on past Sept. 2 1945, neither does the beast wage war against the saints any more.

Just to see how accurate the scripture is when he said 'all these things shall be finished by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast,' look at how the fulfillment of both the resurrection of the just and the unjust plays out. The word 'when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people...' look at the phrase 'When he shall have accomplished...' 'all these things shall be finished.'

It is not a matter of him ceasing his war AFTER the resurrection takes place, but the resurrection of BOTH good and bad actually happens BEFORE he comes to his end...so it is well WITHIN the time frame.

How is it 'well within the time frame?' So we see Caiphas seeing Jesus coming in the clouds with all his saints...what does this mean? It means the wicked dead have been resurrected BEFORE Armageddon has taken place when the beast will be destroyed. It also shows the resurrection of the righteous has occurred, as the resurrected saints are coming down BEFORE Armageddon when the beast will be destroyed.

So even if one clings to the thought that the resurrection of the wicked does not necessarily have to happen when the beast is destroyed, meaning it could be 1000 years later, we can see by following the very events, that the resurrection of both groups has taken place BEFORE he is destroyed...so seeing the events take place, it is easy to see the resurrection of the wicked does not take place at the end of the 1000 years, but rather at the Second Coming.

So if it is acknowledged that both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected at the Second coming, then we have to ask ourselves the question...'Who are the rest of the dead that live not again until the 1000 years are finished.

With this, we zoom into the events that happen on that day. The righteous are coming with Jesus in the clouds, Caiphas is seeing Jesus coming. What is Jesus coming to do? It says he comes with 10,000's of his saints, 'to execute judgment upon all...' in other words, he is coming to the great supper when the kings and captains and mighty men are all killed and the blood is up to the horses bridles.' All these armies that are gathered there at Armageddon are killed by Jesus with the sword of his mouth....

When did they get killed? At the Second Coming. What happens to these dead people? They were killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked had already occured, so they are not included in the resurrection of the wicked that Caiphas was in because they were killed after he had been resurrected. 

These are 'the rest of the dead' who, on that day were killed, and were wicked, but who were not included in the resurrection of the wicked that had just happened because they were killed afterward. These are those that will not live again until the 1000 years are finished. These are the rest of the dead who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. At the end of the 1000 years, it says, 'death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them...' These that died on that day are part of those who will be resurrected at the Great White Throne...

As it says in Is. 24:21-22

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And it shall come to pass in that day, (Second coming) that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.(Armies gathered together at Armageddon) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, (bottomless pit, death, and hell) and after many days (1000 years) shall they be visited.(resurrected.) 

The other issue with the great multitude coming out of great tribulation is the nations who convert at the Second Coming...as it says, 'And he shall rebuke many people and they will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and nations will not learn war any more...'  

These nations that convert are the great multitude John saw out of every kindred, tribe and nation that no man could number...these are the living nations who convert at the second coming. 

The wheat and tares, sheep and goats, good and bad fish are depicting the judgement of the dead...they have no further opportunity to repent. But the living nations are in a different category..they still have the opportunity to repent and the great multitude that John saw are these nations who did repent and washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

As seen in the wheat and tares, sheep and goats, good and bad fish, there is no 'altar call' given to them...No. Their judgement is sealed...if they died a goat, then they are a goat when they are resurrected, and likewise the sheep.

Ps. 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Ps. 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Ps. 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Is. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Zech. 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever

Rev 2:26- 27  He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

There are many other scriptures showing that the nations will convert at the Second Coming and we will rule over them...Rev. 7:13-14 is not a resurrection of anyone...they are the living nations who convert at the Second Coming...

Blessings to you- Gary

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Do you agree the harvest is the end of this age and not the end of the 1000 years?

This does not say 'As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of the next age.'

Blessings to you- Gary

Shalom, Gary.

No, the harvest is BOTH! The END of the 1,000 years, according to Peter, is the same as the end of THIS age! It's the FIRE that accompanies the Great White Throne Judgment when people are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur or the Lake of Burning Sulfur! (See Revelation 20:7-15.) This Present Age ENDS with the 1,000 years, which in turn ENDS with the FIRE, the SECOND RESURRECTION, and JUDGMENT!

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (This attitude today is known as "uniformitarianism.")

5 For this they WILLINGLY are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water (below) and in the water (above): 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (the FLOOD): [This is the First Age. The First Age ended in the FLOOD OF WATER.]

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (the FIRE) against the day of judgment (the Great White Throne Judgment) and perdition (eternal punishment and condemnation) of ungodly men. [This is the Second Age. The Second Age shall end in the DELUGE OF FIRE.]

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [This shall be the Third Age. The Third Age will last forever.]

Verse 5 is found in Genesis 1:

Genesis 1:6-13 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament (Hebrew: raqiya` = "expanse"), and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament "Heaven (Hebrew: Shaamayim, a dual word meaning "skies")." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth (Hebrew: Erets meaning "land")"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas (Hebrew: Mayim, a dual word meaning "seas")": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth":

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Let's also look at the end of Revelation 20, just to fill out the information:

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN (OUT OF THE SKY), AND DEVOURED THEM. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw A GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") fled away (WHOOSH!); and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (THIS is the Second Resurrection); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then, we read ...

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a-sky new") and a new earth (Greek: geen kaineen = "an-earth new"): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is the way that these passages of Scripture, the parables of Yeshua` in Matthew 13, the Resurrections of Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, the Skies and Earth of the three Ages by Peter in 2 Peter 3:3-13, and the 1,000 years, the Fire, and the Great White Throne Judgment followed by the Lake of Fire and then the New Sky and the New Earth by John in Revelation 20:7-21:2 are ALL harmonized together!

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

You also can't make scriptures collide against each other. When Jesus says ALL will hear His voice, THAT is - THE- resurrection. All means ALL. It seems to me you are reading things into it.

Shalom, Uriah.

Yeshua` NEVER said that all would hear His voice AT THE SAME TIME! Just as Yeshua` could say, "LAZARUS, come forth," and ONLY Lazarus was resurrected, He can be SPECIFIC as to WHO "hears His voice" and WHEN!

However, HE is the RESURRECTION and the LIFE! So, whenever they are resurrected, it will be HIS voice they hear!

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

There are some "out of silence" references you made. It will turn into another Frankenstein.

Rev 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So here we have the resurrection at the seventh/last trumpet. Some are rewarded, some are destroyed. No special groups. so instead of seeking what it doesn't say, I am adding to the full picture. This is why I said the martyrs and refusers of the mark are to be taken as those who "stand out in the crowd."

Read Revelation 11 again:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great (Greek: megalee = "loud") voices in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"), saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH God), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever!"

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great (large) hail.

These 24 elders weren't saying that He had done all this right away! They were just thanking God that He was making this a "DONE DEAL!" By sending His Son, the Messiah of God to be King, He was setting the ball in motion that could never be undone by any human authority!

Actually, the First Resurrection has to take place BEFORE Yeshua` the Messiah of God takes the throne! Indeed, the opening of the Fifth Seal is part of that Resurrection:

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The words "the souls of them that were slain" in Greek is "tas psuchas toon esfagmenoon," which mean "the air-breathing creatures the-ones having-been-slain!" While they USED TO BE the slain, they WEREN'T ANY MORE! That's why they could talk! That's why they could wear white robes!

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

You also can't make scriptures collide against each other. When Jesus says ALL will hear His voice, THAT is - THE- resurrection. All means ALL. It seems to me you are reading things into it. There are some "out of silence" references you made. It will turn into another Frankenstein.

Rev 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So here we have the resurrection at the seventh/last trumpet. Some are rewarded, some are destroyed. No special groups. so instead of seeking what it doesn't say, I am adding to the full picture. This is why I said the martyrs and refusers of the mark are to be taken as those who "stand out in the crowd."

There's no collision. 

It's a matter of 'When?' The scripture isn't exactly clear on that point. Yes, the resurrections happen when the Lord is here, for sure one resurrection occurs upon His arrival.

When we see the resurrected in Revelation the only mention of those so resurrected before the 1000 years are those who came out of GT, and those who did not bow to the beast or his image or take the mark. I repeat this because putting any other resurrected here, Rev 7 or Rev 20, is unwarranted textually. At this point the text isn't silent it's unequivocal about whom is standing about the throne and who reigns for 1000 years. 

If that's true then we need another point in time for the resurrection of Dan 12 where some are awakened to life and some to death. 

Rev 20 speaks to this when the text speaks to the 2nd death and the judgement of the GWT. It seems quite impossible for there to be a general resurrection at the point of Rev 20:4-6 if the 2nd death has no power over those who share in the first resurrection. 

And in Rev 7 we see a specific group standing about the throne described as coming out from within GT. Not all the saints of all time. No judgement is mentioned here either. 

The general resurrection of the all the dead, wicked and righteous, can only occur when the 2nd death is allowed authority over the resurrected souls, a condition prohibited by Rev 20:6"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them" making a general resurrection of the sheep and goats impossible before the 1000 years is up.

So it looks like there is a resurrection of the dead and living in Christ, only from the GT, when Jesus arrives, then after the millennium the general resurrection of all the dead from all ages to stand before the throne. None of which is a contradiction as it all happens under the rule of Christ, when He is in His Kingdom and when he sits on the Throne. 

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

How is it 'well within the time frame?' So we see Caiphas seeing Jesus coming in the clouds with all his saints...what does this mean? It means the wicked dead have been resurrected BEFORE Armageddon has taken place when the beast will be destroyed. It also shows the resurrection of the righteous has occurred, as the resurrected saints are coming down BEFORE Armageddon when the beast will be destroyed.

Not necessarily. There is evidence in scripture souls are aware after death. The rich man and Lazarus. The souls under the altar. Samuel called up by séance. I'm of the mind the body dies and sleeps in the grave but souls, the spirit, is aware. This could mean the spirit of these mentioned will witness the coming of Christ, not from earth or after a resurrection, but from the abode of the souls of the dead.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There are many other scriptures showing that the nations will convert at the Second Coming and we will rule over them...Rev. 7:13-14 is not a resurrection of anyone...they are the living nations who convert at the Second Coming...

All the end of the age prophecies must fall under the guide posts of Matt 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 and the order of things given to us in 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 2 Thess 2 and the facts of the great, comprehensive work on the end of the age, Revelation. 

The old prophets spoke many mysteries, The Revelation is so named as it is the revelation of those ancient mysteries. We have a puzzle of prophecy in the OT, the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation are the solution.

Nothing said in ancient times is allowed to contradict these two and in fact all the OT prophecy of the end of the age must submit to the Discourse and Revelation.

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This does not say 'As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of the next age.'

Blessings to you- Gary

Shalom, Gary.

No, the harvest is BOTH! The END of the 1,000 years, according to Peter, is the same as the end of THIS age!

The wheat are not harvested at the end of the 1000 years...this is the fallacy...the wheat are resurrected at the Second coming and rule with Christ for the entire period...they can not be resurrected at the Second coming and also be said to be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years.

It does not say 'So shall it be in this age, it says 'so shall it be at THE END of this age.'

Blessings to you

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The Revelation is so named as it is the revelation of those ancient mysteries. We have a puzzle of prophecy in the OT, the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation are the solution.

Revelation is the solution: Rev. 15:4- 

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Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

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Rev. 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

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Rev. 21:4 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

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Rev. 11:18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This could mean the spirit of these mentioned will witness the coming of Christ, not from earth or after a resurrection, but from the abode of the souls of the dead.

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Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The end of THIS AGE is not the same as the end of the NEXT AGE...it says the tares are burned at the end of THIS AGE...at the same time the wheat is judged. It cannot be that the END of this age is at the Second Coming and also be the END of the age 1000 years later...this is nonsense. 

 

Blessings to you- Gary