Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro,

It is apparent that you are still reading things in Rev. and relying strictly on a linear comprehension. Not all of it actually is, though. It is a series of visions and the are actually digressions. This is not the only place in scripture to see this either. For example, in the situation we are discussing, I mentioned previously how the heaven (sky) departs at Jesus coming in Rev. 6. And at that the Earth is undergoing geologic transformation. yet people still read later in Rev. as if the new heaven and Earth is a thousand years away. So it isn't strictly the order of the words on the page, but the order of events that help us get the whole picture.  

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

MAYBE (although I don't think so) you're right about a few things in Revelation, but not from Revelation 19 through 22. As I said, the KEY is the incarceration of haSatan. 

Yeshua` is already back to earth in Revelation 19:

Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verses 11-16 have not yet occurred!

Verses 17-19 talk about the Great Battle in which the Messiah defeats all of His enemies who were gathered together for war. And their flesh is fed to the birds and the beasts.

The CONCLUSION of that battle in verses 20 and 21 includes the taking of the beast and the false prophet and they are both thrown into that Lake of Fire. burning with sulfur. The rest of those who took part in this battle were killed with the sword  of Yeshua` the Messiah. This isn't the whole human population, but it only includes those who were gathered for war. And the birds were stuffed with their meat!

Then, we come to chapter 20 and we read,

Revelation 20:1-10 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice the contextual clues that bind this chapter to the previous one! So, it IS continuing on and notes that the devil, haSatan, is thrown into the same Lake of Fire "WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE!"

There are two places mentioned here: The bottomless pit (which means "the pit with an unsounded bottom") and the Lake of Fire. For that 1,000 years in which those who are resurrected in the First (General) Resurrection are reigning, haSatan is bound in chains in the bottomless pit.
AFTER the 1,000 years, haSatan is loosed out of his prison and deceives those who are ready to follow him anyway. 

It's not until then that we read that haSatan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire where his cohorts already were thrown.

Then, there's another such link in the timing in Revelation 21:4:

Revelation 21:5-8

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We've already seen this happen at the end of chapter 20 at the Great White Throne Judgment! So, chapter 19 flows into chapter 20, chapter 20 flows into chapter 21, and they are ALL linked together in their timing!

Therefore, within these chapters there are NO "digressions," and the text IS to be understood as a linear string of events!

[Uriah]

Hi Retro,

Ok now let's look at some of these things in context, because none of them are disconnected, we are however, examining whether or not they are linear. 

Rev 6:14 & 16- .....and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev.16:17 & 20- And the seventh angel poured out his vial

 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev. 20:11- And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide.

So, are you of the opinion that ANY of these are AFTER the thousand years? You see, Jesus is seen by the world in Rev. 6 on a throne followed by the sky departing. The SAME is shown in Rev. 20. Rev. 16 has Jesus saying "it is done". The 7th vial coincides with the 7th trumpet. This why it isn't read in linear fashion -strictly.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Uriah
clarity

[Retrobyter]

On 11/30/2018 at 6:58 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Retro,

Ok now let's look at some of these things in context, because none of them are disconnected, we are however, examining whether or not they are linear. 

Rev 6:14 & 16- .....and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev.16:17 & 20- And the seventh angel poured out his vial

 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev. 20:11- And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide.

So, are you of the opinion that ANY of these are AFTER the thousand years? You see, Jesus is seen by the world in Rev. 6 on a throne followed by the sky departing. The SAME is shown in Rev. 20. Rev. 16 has Jesus saying "it is done". The 7th vial coincides with the 7th trumpet. This why it isn't read in linear fashion -strictly.

Shalom, Uriah.

I can understand your confusion on this. I've heard this form of teaching many times, some even from students with whom I went to school at an independent Baptist college, where it was NOT taught. They were about to become pastors, missionaries, and evangelists, teaching the very things they believed!

The first thing one needs to understand when studying Scripture is that "all" and "every" are NOT NECESSARILY "all" and "every!"

To expand what one reads to the "whole planet Earth" and the "whole Universe" is a common error that I call "universalism." In logic, one learns that "all" and "every" are DEPENDENT upon the set in one's focus. 

Imagine (since I can't draw it directly for you) a large box (rectangle) drawn on white paper. In the upper right corner, the letter "U" is written. This stands for the "Universal set" or "Universe," the largest set we know.

Now, draw a circle in the center of that box; this circle represents a "set." Inside that set, write several letters in any arrangement you wish. Now, outside that set but still within the box, just to keep them separate, write several numbers.

IF my context has been a focus on the set, and I talk about "all" or "every," I'm talking about the letters only; not the numbers outside the set.

Now, transfer this representation to what we see in the book of Revelation. Context is ALWAYS the controlling factor to the meaning of "all" and "every." If there are any limitations on the context, then these define a SET within the Universal set, and the words "all" and "every" are limited by those limitations to elements within the set!

So, to answer your questions, NONE of the verses you quoted are "AFTER the thousand years." One must read the WHOLE context before stating to what the "all" and "every" refer. Let's include the other verses around the ones you've quoted:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake (Greek: seismos megas egeneto = "an-earthquake huge happened"); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair (Greek: ho heelios egeneto melas hoos sakkos trichinos = "the sun became black like a-mohair-weave of-goat's-hair"), and the moon became as blood (Greek: hee seleenee holee egeneto hoos haima = "the moon full became like blood"); 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth (Greek: hoi asteres tou ouranou epesan eis teen geen = "the stars of-the sky fell into the ground"), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together (Greek: ho ouranos apechooristhee hoos biblion helissomenon = "the sky split-apart like a-scroll being-coiled"); and every mountain and island were moved out of their places (Greek: pan oros kai neesos ek toon topoon autoon ekineetheesan = "every mountain and island out of-the places of-them were-stirred"). 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

When asked about the largest earthquake ever, the answer from Wikipedia comes back,

Quote

The 1960 Valdivia earthquake (Spanish: Terremoto de Valdivia) or Great Chilean earthquake (Gran terremoto de Chile) of 22 May is the most powerful earthquake ever recorded. Various studies have placed it at 9.4–9.6 on the moment magnitude scale.

Then, when one asks if a magnitude 10 is possible, it comes back with...

Quote

In theory, yes, but it's extremely unlikely. Earthquakes are caused by the sudden slippage of faults, and their magnitude is partly based on the length of those faults. No known faults are long enough to generate a megaquake of 10 or more. (The largest quake ever recorded was a magnitude 9.5.)

So, how do the earthquake magnitudes work? The Richter scale is a logarithmic scale based on the amplitude in millimeters on the seismograph and the distance from the epicenter of the earthquake. One can see a graph here through mathcentral.

My point is this: Even if this is a case of multiple, cascading earthquakes in which they set off each other over a large area, it is NOT a global event. The passage does NOT say that these are all the kings there are. The passage does NOT say that the mountains and islands are destroyed; they are simply excited out of their original places; that means that they are simply moved to slightly different locations, but they are NOT gone. 

Therefore, this is NOT the same as the Global Fire at the end of Revelation 20. This is at the BEGINNING of Yeshua`s arrival back to earth!

***

Revelation 16:17-21 (KJV)

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying (Greek: ho hebdomos execheen teen fialeen autou epi ton aera; kai exeelthen foonee megalee ek tou naou apo tou thronou legousa, = "the seventh poured-out the bowl of-him upon the air; and came-out a-voice loud out of-the sanctuary away-from the throne saying,"), 

"It is done." (Greek: "Gegonen." = "It-has-happened.") 

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

This earthquake is a RECORD QUAKE, bigger than that of Revelation 6! However, its epicenter is Babylon or Bavel. It is NOT worldwide, even though "every" island was submerged and the mountains around Mesopotamia were leveled.

Hail comes from water freezing in a thunderhead while falling and being blown upward in the updraft many times, and although this, too, is probably a world record for thunderheads (cumulonimbus clouds) because of how heavy the hail becomes (a talent = about 75 pounds), it eventually falls as balls of ice about 1 foot 4.2 inches in diameter!  So, this, too, is not the same as the end of the 20th chapter, which is not balls of ice but a global FIRE.

These events differ enough not to be counted as different accounts of the same event. The seals, trumpets and bowls are TELESCOPING events; that is, the seventh seal gives rise to all seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet gives rise to all seven bowl judgments. They do not just repeat the same events.

Perhaps, it might be helpful to understand that One doesn't have to have just ONE throne! Regarding Queen Elizabeth of England,

Quote

The Queen has nine Royal thrones - One at the House of Lords, two at Westminster Abbey, and six in the throne room at Buckingham Palace. 85. The Queen is 5 ft 4 inches or 160 cm tall. Source: the official website of the British Monarchy. Apr 21, 2011

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Retrobyter
It's not Shabbat anymore and to add some info regarding the number of thrones a person could have.

[Uriah]

16 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

So, to answer your questions, NONE of the verses you quoted are "AFTER the thousand years." 

Thank you!!!

[Retrobyter]

On 11/29/2018 at 1:09 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Marv

The new heaven and Earth are here right after Jesus defeats the a/c. You can see this in Rev 6. The sky is departing at to be replaced by the new heaven and there is a change in  global geography.

NJ appears right after that. Otherwise we have to wait 1,000 yrs to"enter" the place prepared for us. Rev.20 was meant to say parentheses around the passage on the 1k yrs. It is merely a digression.

 

Shalom, Uriah.

You are EXACTLY correct. We DO "have to wait 1,000 years to enter the place prepared for us." On the other hand, that's okay! See, we will be busy for that 1,000 years, and the Messiah will be busy as well rebuilding the Temple to HIS specifications. See, the Jews of Jerusalem in Israel will have made a valiant attempt to reconstruct the Temple, but He shall do it better. The Ezekiel Temple is that built by the Messiah Himself.

1 Samuel 7:8-17 (KJV)

8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

He also has a MUCH different layout of Israel planned in the latter chapters of Ezekiel than how Israel has been established to this point in time.

He will also have a very large city (large for Israel, that is) laid out, which will be a rebuilt Jerusalem. I believe this city will be a model of the New Jerusalem to come because its gates will be similarly laid out, and the city will be constructed on a square plot of ground aligned with north, much like the New Jerusalem will be founded.

Ezekiel 48:15-20 (KJV)

15 And the five thousand, that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof. 16 And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred, and the south side four thousand and five hundred, and on the east side four thousand and five hundred, and the west side four thousand and five hundred. 17 And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty, and toward the south two hundred and fifty, and toward the east two hundred and fifty, and toward the west two hundred and fifty. 18 And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city. 19 And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel. 20 All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand: ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.

...

Ezekiel 48:30-35 (KJV)

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures. 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. 32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. 33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. 34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. 35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there. (Hebrew: "YHWH Shaamaah").

And, I personally believe that "YHWH" is pronounced as at the end of Hebrew names that contain part of the Tetragrammaton, such as "Yesha`yahuw" ("Isaiah") and "Matittyahuw" ("Matthew") and "Yirmeyahuw" ("Jeremiah"). Thus, it would be pronounced "YaHuWH" (YAH-hoo), not "YaHWeH" as most believe and CERTAINLY NOT "Jehovah!"

[Uriah]

Retrobyter said............."You are EXACTLY correct. We DO "have to wait 1,000 years to enter the place prepared for us."

You previously agreed with the verses I posted showing that this cannot be. I do not care to go in circles.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Retrobyter said............."You are EXACTLY correct. We DO "have to wait 1,000 years to enter the place prepared for us."

You previously agreed with the verses I posted showing that this cannot be. I do not care to go in circles.

Shalom, Uriah.

No circles. What have you misunderstood? You were right that we have to wait a thousand years for the New Earth and the New Jerusalem, but we aren't waiting for the Messiah that long. When the Messiah Yeshua` returns, we will be subordinate kings to His reign. He is called the "King of kings" for a reason. That title was something Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes shared. It simply means a "world emperor," but quite literally it meant that the emperor was "a king to other kings." Since we shall "reign with Him," then we, too, shall be kings, although lesser kings to Him.

Furthermore, we are said to "reign with Him a thousand years!" So, we shall not be idle during that time! 

Many don't realize the true nature of the Millennium. It's not just a "hunky-dory" time where everything is peace and tranquility! To the contrary, there will be suppressed anger and hostility that shall be squelched by the Messiah as long as He reigns. Psalm 2, for instance, is a Messianic Psalm:

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree:

'the LORD hath said unto me,

<<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Furthermore, we are told this about the Messiah's reign:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

0. Christ the firstfruits;
1. afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 2. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Millennium will be a time of SUPPRESSED insurrection and FORCED peace. When haSatan is released and the Messiah gives them a little wiggle room, those so suppressed will go FLYING back to haSatan, ripe for the final battle and their demise.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

I'm hoping to renew a living hope and a confidence in the MESSIAH returning and reigning here on this earth.

Many Christians believe that, when we die, we go to "Heaven" and "live happily ever after." I can now say WITH CONFIDENCE that that scenario is NOT TRUE!

After we've all experienced the deaths of Billy Graham and now deceased President George H. W. Bush, one can see how impossibly ingrained this fiction is: They both believed as well as those who shared their beliefs that, now dead and having gone to "Heaven," they are now experiencing peace and love and the reunions and companionship of lost loved ones and friends.

I believe that God's Word says otherwise. Instead, we go to our graves and await the Resurrection of our bodies (the real "us"), and THEN we have our reunions and fellowship and companionship with those who have died before us.

See, through a VERY ELABORATE AND COMPLICATED PARADIGM SHIFT in the definitions of so many words that we commonly use in religious circles, we (as Adam's race through Noach and his sons) have changed much of what the Scriptures say into something totally foreign to the understanding of the original authors and the Controlling Author of the Holy Bible.

It started in the 200s A.D. with the introduction of Greek philosophy and metaphysics into biblical theology. With the beliefs that the spiritual was different than the physical and the Platonic teaching that the spiritual was good while the physical was bad, we began our "journey to the dark side."

The definitions of "soul," "spirit," and "body," the definitions of "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly," the definitions of "hell," "deep," and "lake of fire (and sulfur)," the definitions of "angel," "devil," "demon," "Satan," and "Lucifer," the definitions of "Christ," "Messiah," "Kingdom of God," "Kingdom of heaven," and the definitions of  "Christian," "church," and "assembly" have ALL taken on new meanings over the last 2,000 years! They've been subtle changes from the times that the "church" took on a life of its own, separated from its Hebrew origins, and incorporated the teachings of Clement, Origen, Sabellius, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Constantine, Eusebius, and Augustine (to name a few).

Many have accepted much of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, whether they want to admit it or not. Some accept their teachings willingly; some accept them because there's no alternative, even using the same language, like "hypostatic union" in Christology!

Even the very understanding of the "Tribulation" has been altered (although that's a fairly recent change, "recent" in the sense of millennia). It's not a "seven-year period"; it's a 2000-year period into which we have already entered as of the First Century A.D. As such, ONLY the Posttribulational view of the Rapture makes any sense! However, it's not in the "traditional" sense of what is Posttribulational Rapturism.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 

I believe that God's Word says otherwise. Instead, we go to our graves and await the Resurrection of our bodies (the real "us"), and THEN we have our reunions and fellowship and companionship with those who have died before us.

 

Hi Retro,

Those in the Body of Christ are NOT resurrected BUT CHANGED.

Also as you can see from Heb. 12: 22 & 23, those who have gone on ahead of us are WITH THE LORD in the angelic realm, and certainly NOT in the grave.

`you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/29/2018 at 1:09 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Marv

The new heaven and Earth are here right after Jesus defeats the a/c. You can see this in Rev 6. The sky is departing at to be replaced by the new heaven and there is a change in  global geography.

NJ appears right after that. Otherwise we have to wait 1,000 yrs to"enter" the place prepared for us. Rev.20 was meant to say parentheses around the passage on the 1k yrs. It is merely a digression.

Shalom, Uriah.

When I said you were "exactly right," I was only referring to your statement highlighted above. However, the New Sky and the New Earth with its New Jerusalem descending out of that Sky, is NOT "here right after Jesus defeats the a/c." While the sky in one area is "separating" and "rolled up like a scroll" in Revelation 6, that's NOT the same as the sky "flying by" (2 Peter 3:10) or "fleeing from the face of the One sitting upon the throne" (Revelation 20:11), since "our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29).

The "1k yrs" is YET TO COME; it's the time when Yeshua` begins His reign here on this earth, "when He shall have annulled all dominion and all authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:24) "for it is necessary for Him to reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), and He has not yet begun His reign.

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..."

and

Matthew 25:31-40 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (His brightness): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ..."

This is the ONLY time that Yeshua` refers to Himself as "the King." It is still something that shall yet be true IN THE FUTURE.

It has NEVER been true that Yeshua` ("Jesus") has replaced the recipients of the prophetic promises (who were the children of Israel) with the "Church." The children of Israel are STILL God's "chosen seed" and the Messiah Yeshua`s literal "family." The born-again believers of the Gentiles, who collectively gathered in groups called "churches," are "grafted INTO" that "family!" They do NOT "replace" them!

Therefore, we still have ALL of the Messianic prophecies and their promises to Israel to be fulfilled and kept! This begins in the Millennium, but the Millennium is strictly about the incarceration of haSatan. We also know this:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.