Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

39 minutes ago, The Light said:

Good morning Uriah,

I think the reason that people can't see the pretribulation rapture is because the details are missed. I notice you quoted "even at the door". The scriptures says, "even at the DOORS".

Matt 24

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The details say He is coming more than once.

Luke 17:22

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Exactly. This is the gathering that occurs prior to the Day of the Lord, the day of his wrath. That day will not take them unaware as they know the TIMES AND SEASONS. And yet we are told that the GOODMAN will not know when the thief is coming. That's because he comes more than once. When He comes before the day of the Lord, ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. When he comes before the tribulation (before the seals are opened) it will be in secret. It's all in the details.

Song of Solomon 2

 

ERROR!!!

TheLight,

              This is impossible! Jesus showed us how it will be with the stories of Noah and Lot. In BOTH cases God's people were NOT delivered until the very day that the judgment came down from out of the sky. "...it will be just like this when the Son of Man comes..."

[The Light]

23 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

One point that I would add.   When Michael stands up,  he says that the time of trouble that never was,  is yet to come,  and not "has been".  The great tribulation that happens before that day is not the time of Jacob's trouble.   It comes after... after Satan is cast out.   This is the DOTL,  when the kingdom of God shall come. 

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

Hey Da Puppers,

Enjoyed reading your post, however, the time of Jacobs trouble is the 70th week of Daniel. Inside the 70th week is what's known as the great tribulaiton. The Church is already in heaven before the 70th week begins, which is before the seals are opened.  Here we can see the time of Jacobs trouble BEFORE the day of the Lord begins.

Matt 24

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

The stars are cast from heaven in Rev 6. Shortly after we see the coming of the Lord in Matt 24, Rev 6.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

The day of the Lord, the day of His wrath cannot be the time of Jacobs trouble because the nation of Israel will be given the wings of an eagle and will be in a place of safety for time, times and half a time.

 

[Last Daze]

26 minutes ago, Uriah said:

ERROR!!!

TheLight,

              This is impossible! Jesus showed us how it will be with the stories of Noah and Lot. In BOTH cases God's people were NOT delivered until the very day that the judgment came down from out of the sky. "...it will be just like this when the Son of Man comes..."

Exactly right.

• They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11

No need to complicate things.

[The Light]

54 minutes ago, Uriah said:

ERROR!!!

TheLight,

              This is impossible! Jesus showed us how it will be with the stories of Noah and Lot. In BOTH cases God's people were NOT delivered until the very day that the judgment came down from out of the sky. "...it will be just like this when the Son of Man comes..."

I noticed that you list TWO examples. Let's check the details.

Mark 13

²⁶ And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

²⁷ They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

²⁸ Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

²⁹ But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The details say LIKEWISE ALSO. That means: in addition; too; besides; as well.  That means he is coming more than once. More details

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. That is a detail you should consider. When He comes again it will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

The church will be taken pretrib before the 70th week of Daniel, a seven year period. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth will be taken prior to the wrath of God. The nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by The Light

[Uriah]

38 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

There are two principal means that post-trib interprets the book of revelation:  sequentially or concurrently.   Those who view the seals, trumpets and bowls in a concurring fashion,  have the 7th trumpet taking place at the time of Armageddon.   But those who view them sequentially,  have the 7th trumpet taking place midstream of these events. Such a view has the church being here for the DOTL when the wrath of God "is come", aorist participle.   This contradicts Paul's statement that we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation.   To hold to a sequential view of revelation also violates what John says will taker place when that day "is come":

*[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath IS COME, and the TIME of the DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the PROPHETS, and to the SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

REITERATING 2TIM 4:1:

Jesus shall judge the quick and the dead at, 

1. His appearing &

2. His kingdom. 

I don't see how a sequentialist can reconcile #2 with a post-trib resurrecting of the saints.   The coming of Jesus in the clouds with power and glory before the kingdom comes is reiterated in M&M&L.  This again violates the sequential order of the 7th trumpet and Rev 19.  

This is further supported by 2 Thess 2 when Paul says:

*[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren,

1. by the, coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and

2.by our gathering together unto him,

[Aside from what I have presented (as a difference in views) post-trib should also believe that the kingdom comes concurrent with the gathering together] we see:

*[[2Th 2:3]] KJV* Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Post-trib views the coming in the clouds and gathering together as one event.   That is neither proven nor refuted by 2 Thess 2.  It is not a proof text for such a view (post-trib).  In and of itself,  (out of context) it can and is interpreted to be one or two events (coming & gathering).  

I have presented other scriptures(gospels and revelation)  that days that it is two different events.   This has not included other writings of Paul,  Peter and James.   If you think that 2 Thess 2 conclusively proves a simultaneous coming and gathering,  other scriptures (have not and) will not change your mind and there is no further need to discuss this.   If you think that there are other scriptures will support your position,  feel free to bring then into the discussion.   I would only ask that you first explain how the coming of the kingdom (Luke 21:31) and all of the events that precede it,  align with the book of revelation. 

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

Hi PuP

          At the 7th trumpet there is the resurrection AND the declaration of the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdom of God. There are only two places where we see a general resurrection in scripture. The one declared by Paul in 1 Cor. 15 and at the end of 1,000 yrs. This one in Rev 11 has to be one of them. Since there had not been the millennium by this time it must be the one Paul spoke of. 

So we need only look at Matt. 24 to see Jesus coming in the clouds and gathering His elect. He descends form heaven and the dead in Christ rise first. Rev 16 shows Jesus saying He will come like a thief (because He hasn't done so yet) on the brink of Armageddon! Rev 15 states that NO BODY can enter until the 7 last plagues are fulfilled. Rev 19 shows the bride receiving her new attire (without which you cannot go into the "feast"/wedding) only at the very END as Jesus is seen approaching with His armies. And in the same chapter the multitude of people (resurrected/raptured) are seen standing in the sky shouting hallelujah! It will all happen on one DAY!!!

 

 

[Uriah]

40 minutes ago, The Light said:

I noticed that you list TWO examples. Let's check the details.

Mark 13

²⁶ And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

²⁷ They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

²⁸ Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

²⁹ But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The details say LIKEWISE ALSO. That means: in addition; too; besides; as well.  That means he is coming more than once. More details

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. That is a detail you should consider. When He comes again it will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

The church will be taken pretrib before the 70th week of Daniel, a seven year period. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth will be taken prior to the wrath of God. The nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

 

Hi The Light

                   Likewise: 

adverb

moreover; in addition; also; too:She is likewise a fine lawyer.

in like manner; in the same way; similarly:I'm tempted to do likewise.

 

I don't think Jesus got it wrong and couldn't tell if Lot's story was different from Noah's and blew it by 7 days/years.

You also have fallen victim to missing the pre-telling /re-telling character of ancient writings, i.e. Genesis/O.T. Noah entered the ark on the very day the rain came down.

 

Gen.7:13- In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark

Matt. 24:38- For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Luke 17:27- They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all

Luke 17:29- But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 

Luke 17:30- “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Uriah

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I take it that you interpret the seals, trumpets and vials concurrently,  rather then sequentially.   There is therefore no real value in discussing these things because a concurrent view of these things makes the book of revelation a schizophrenic diagram of the events and time markers that are given to them.   

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

Rev 6 - 11 is sequential.  Rev 12-19 expounds on 6-11.  That's how I see it anyway.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

Quote

 

I don't think Jesus got it wrong and couldn't tell if Lot's story was different from Noah's and blew it by 7 days/years.

I'm sure Jesus didn't get it wrong. There is a reason He gave us the example of Noah and then said LIKEWISE ALSO, and gives us another example. There are two comings of the Lord before the wrath. The first coming will be like the days of Noah and we see that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. We also note that they were eating and drinking UNTIL NOAH ENTERED THE ARK. We also see a coming of the Lord when it will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. And the very day the Lord comes for the gathering the world will be cast into the wrath of God.

 

Quote

You also have fallen victim to missing the pre-telling /re-telling character of ancient writings, i.e. Genesis/O.T. Noah entered the ark on the very day the rain came down.

 

Gen.7:13- In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark

There is absolutely no chance that the rain came the day that Noah entered the ark. We see that on the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark. There is no mention of rain. God is merely letting you know that Noah, and his people and the animals all entered the ark on the same day, that is, it did not take seven days to load the animals.

Gen 7

1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

² Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

³ Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

⁴ For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

It's pretty clear that Noah is instructed to enter the ark and that in 7 days God will cause the rain. No where does it say: Wait 7 days and then enter the ark on the selfsame day that is rains.

Gen 7

⁵ And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

⁶ And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

⁷ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

⁸ Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

In the above verses we can see that Noah did as commanded which was to enter the ark with his family and the animals. THEN it came to pass after 7 days that the flood waters were upon the earth.

Brother, you are missing so many details that it is no surprise that you can't see a pretribulation rapture. It's all over the scriptures and yet you miss it. It's good that you are able to see that there will be a post tribulation or pre wrath rapture, but that won't be the Church as they are already in heaven, as we can see in Rev 5.

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by The Light

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Quote

And here we see that the time of Jacob's trouble does not come UNTIL Michael stands up FOR the children off Jacob: 

*[[Dan 12:1]] KJV* And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

We can see this time in the book of Matthew.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We can also see this time in the book of Revelation.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When Michael stands up, it says "and at that time thy people shall be delivered" We can see the people being delivered in Matt 24 when God sends his angels to gather his elect from the four winds. There is a rapture. It is a post trib or pre wrath rapture. It's not the church, they are in heaven in Rev 5. We know who the harvest is by the 1st fruits. If I showed up with a basket of corn and said, these are the first fruits. Then if I asked, what will be harvested? Surely you would know that the harvest would be corn as the first fruits of the harvest was corn. Even so, we see that the 1st fruits are 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe. Therefore that harvest will be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. And that is how they people are delivered.

Additionally, we know the length of time. It is time, times and half a time. And we see that the nation of Israel will be in a place of protection for time, times and half a time. Israel is protected, the time of Jacobs trouble ended before the gathering by the angels.

 

 

 

[Uriah]

40 minutes ago, The Light said:

There is absolutely no chance that the rain came the day that Noah entered the ark.

Hello TheLight,

Gen 7:11- In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12- And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13- In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

 

Your ploy to stop right before the rest of the verses that show this is remarkable. Either that or you paid no attention to what I said about pre-telling & re-telling recurring in the O.T.

Better off to just believe the scriptures, eh? No need to omit the part that finishes off the story. Jesus said it was so, yet you say, "no chance..."