Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Guest]

kari19 said:

When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).

Not entirely accurate. Jesus said not one knew when the day or the hour was to be, not that no one would ever know. That statement was present tense, we are now in the future. When Jesus was on earth, He laid down certain Godly attributes. One of the attributes of God is omniscience - all knowing. Do you really think that Jesus still is clueless about His coming? He might be, but I sort of doubt it. You have actually offered you own proof that the time will be known. When anti-christ breaks the covenant, it will be 1260 days - so there it is, it will be known.

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Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation.

They are not "In a way" correct. They are exactly correct.

Matt 24:15-21

15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

Jesus is the one that used the phrase the great tribulation and said it will be 3-1/2 years in length. While not a major issue, I think you would do better to remain accurate to the text, and come up with other terminology to refer to the 7 year period, no need to cause confusion. Personally, I refer to the 7 years as Daniels 70th week or the just the the 7 years.

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When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation.

Exactly! See! I didn't even have to make the point above, you already know that the time is not a big mystery at some point in the future

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The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.

You lost me there by asserting something you want someone to believe, but the ideas are only incompatable if we accept your assumptions. If Jesus said no one presently knew the day or the hour (which He did), that does not preclude that no one would even know. That much you already pointed out. Therefore, there is no conflict whatsoever, and the viewpoints are both true, just as everything else in the Bible is.

I might point out for the benefit of others reading that Paul said to believers, that we will not be surprized.

1 Thess 5:4-5

4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

You want to make than mean that we will not be surprised, because we will not be here.

Pre-tribbers less often quote another Pauline passage though:2 Thess 2:1

2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him . . . .

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The revelation of the man of lawlessness, is in the middle of the 7 years, Paul says our gathering is subsequent to that, so clearly it is not at the beginning of the 7 years. One can make the argument based on this passage, for a rapture at about the middle of the 7 years or some time after, but not before. I might go with that, if there were not other verses teaching and implying that the tribulation ends before the Lord returns to gather His people.

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If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem.

There is no problem, unless one ignores certain facts in the Bible. If I understand this argument it is:

1 The 7 years begins, and the church is still here

2 In the middle of the seven years, the great tribulation begins

3 The Lord returns, raptures the believers and wipes every body out

4 The Church is to reign with Christ over those on the earth for 1000 years

5 Problem, there is no one left to reign over

 

Is is that about the essence of it?

If so, you are creating a non-existent problem, at least in this post-tribbers mind. The error is in another of your assumptions. You assume that I think the earth has been voided of people at Christ's second coming. I think the Bible strongly implies otherwise.

How about this as an alternative scenario:

1 The 7 years begins, and the church is still here

2 In the middle of the seven years, the great tribulation begins

3 The Lord returns, raptures the believers and wipes every body out except a Jewish remnant

4 The Church is to reign with Christ over the Jewish remnant for 1000 years

5 Problem solved.

Perhaps, someone is thinking: "What Jewish remnant?"

Rev 12:4-6

The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

There you see pictured Satan's attempt to have Jesus slain so that He could not complete His mission, the male child is obviously Jesus - the ruler over the nations. Jesus is later caught up to Heaven, after His resurrection. The woman (Israel- the Jewish race) flees into the desert for 3-1/2 years - coincidentally the lenght of the great tribulation. You may recall Jesus instructions:

Matt 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-let the reader understand- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Why?

Matt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again.

So, here you have those in Judea, responding to the tribulation - what happens next? Michael does battle with the dragon and tosses him out of Heaven then

Rev 12:13-17

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the sent's reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. NIV

The dragon (Satan through his servant the anti-christ) pursues the Jews, but they are protected from him during the time, times, and half a time (3-1/2 years). Then enraged, filled with anger (wrath), he turns his attention to who?

"those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." Who is it that holds to the testimony of Jesus anyway - don't we call those "Christians"? When is this? Obviously, during the tribulation.

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In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie.

I find that paragraph absolutely shocking. First off, finish Paul's thought instead of editing it:

1 Thess 5:9

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the contrast between two destinies, wrath, and salvation. God's wrath is not the tribulation, show me a single verse that says it is - you cannot. This is the problem with so much of the pretrib doctrine - constant assumptions - instead of just plain reading of what the text actually says. It seems to me, that Paul there is comparing salvation (forgiveness and being with Him in eternity) to His wrath (judgement and separation from Him in eternity.

The way I see that, and what I find shocking, is that you are attributing to God, the acts of Satan - in my mind, that is borderline blasphemy. I recognize and am o.k. with people having differing views on the timing of the rapture, but please be careful what you blame God for.

Your next mistake is to try to tell us what post-tribbers believe - and it is not at all what I believe. There are some, I am sure, that believe that God will protect them during the tribulation as He did with Lot, Noah, the three Hebrew children. That is possible, and perhaps that will be true for some.

My suspicion however, is that God will grant believers, the privilege and honor of suffering and dying for Him. It is completely in keeping with His character as demonstrated in the past, and is an act of His grace, to allow us to demonstrate our love for Him in that manner, and bestow upon us greater rewards for being faithful.

Why is it, that modern, western Christians, what to avoid God's blessing and hope for avoiding the opportunity to glorify Him? The Bible does not tell us that we have no trouble in this life, it promises us troubles and informs us that this life is not to be compared to what God has in store for us. Instead of ignoring God on those points, why not embrace them, knowing in faith, that God loves us and has the best of plans for us, stop looking through worldly eyes. For you consideration:

2 Thess 1:4-9

4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Rom 5:2-5

3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Heb 10:32-36

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Acts 14:21-23

And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

2 Cor 6:3-10

4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

2 Cor 4:13-18

13 It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Cor 1:3-11

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. 5 For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 6 If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. 7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.

8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. 9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.

Now, if you made it through those verses, good for you. They are marvelous and inspiring to me. Others may see doom and gloom, but why accept that outlook?

People of God have suffed for thousands of years, often in direct proportion to their obedience to God. How were the prophets treated, or the apostles, or the martyrs across the cneturies? Why do we expect God to change His ways in the end times?

1 Peter 4:12-19

12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

Finally, who could say it better or any plainer that our Lord?:

Matt 5:10-12

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Earlier I asked:

Why is it, that modern, western Christians, what to avoid God's blessing and hope for avoiding the opportunity to glorify Him?

Remember, that we are told that in the last times, people will gather to themselves teachers who will tell them what their itching ears want to hear. The pre-trib rapture theory is certainly one that tickles the ears. Does this fit? I honestly do not know. I do know that we are warned over and over again, by Jesus and the apostles and other epistle writers to be careful not to be decieved. If someone wants to pull one over one you, they tell you what you want to hear, we more readily accept good news. We learn through life experiences, that often when someone tells you good news (congratulations, you have been chosen toi receive and all expenses trip to Hawaii, and it is all for free!), it is not the truth. We need to be just as careful when we hear doctrines which are appealing. Obviously, the Gospel is good news, and it is true. Not every doctrine of men is true however, be cautious saints!

If someone is inclined to believe, for whatever reason, that the Church is going to escape the great tribulation, I suggest that you admit the possibility that you may be wrong, just enough to pray to the effect that God will give you strength and courage to live as He wills, should you find yourself in those times. It is not a lack of faith to so so, but an expression of faith that He knows what is best, even when we do not understand. Part of me, of course, hopes that I am wrong, but whether I am right or wrong, I do not seek to change God's will, but to be given the grace to accept it, whatever it holds for my life. Let's all do the same.

Omegaman - Willing to be blessed!

 

[eric]

I agree, onwingsaseagles. Excellelent posts by Omegaman and Toni R and all through studying scripture themselves and not relying on the views of other websites.

[Isa]

Here is a 6 point biblical proof for post trib rapture.

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib are biblicaly impossible.

I would like to have a closer look at the verses that try to disprove the catching away of the church. Lets remember that the trumpet use to be used for many things. One time I would like to note is when the trumpet is blown to announce a visiting monarch. This I believe is the trumpet that is blown to announce to the church that Her king has arrived.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Who is coming here? It is the Lord coming. He is coming as a Savior not as a judge like in Matthew 24:29-31. The dead shall rise first to meet the living who are changed in a twinkling of the eye 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and then we shall be raised even higher than the clouds we will rise together to meet the Lord in the air above the clouds. We shall be with Him eternally the bride and groom together forever.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

The Last Enemy Destroyed

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ

[abrandnewgirl]

I agree with what you write JesusisGod2.

Another thing is, if you read The Revelation of Jesus Christ and study it thoroughly, it has an order of things to come and there is NO pretrib Rapture, which is not really a word that we can back up as being doctrinally correct.

I learned this when I was a baby christian and it was my own reading that led me to question the teachings and preachings out there. Some of it just did not make sense and it is even more of a mystery to those who debate a pretrib rapture.

When I bring up events in Revelation, they do not understand that saints, are the christians it is referring too. I am also under the suspicion that when all hell that breaks loose after the beast ascends from the abyss, 'time' will go speedily for the ones who remain. And when the day the great day arrives where the remnant who died for His Name Sake put on their white robes, every tear they shed will be wiped away and all suffering and hunger they did endure will never be their plight again. These have a special place with the Lord for they have the testimony of Jesus and have over come by the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of thier testimony.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And the Spirit of Prophecy is the fullfillment of His word and He will complete this wonderful work through us. In my opinion, the real nasty stuff starts to happen when the Beast ascends from the abyss, which is the 2nd woe. The picture changes dramatically and the believers are in grave danger now because the beasts time is recognizeably short.

I really had doubts in the pretrib rapture when I started my own studies, but let me say this, if it were for Hal Lindsay's book "The Late Great Planet Earth", I may never had researched it so strongly. Praise God for that!

Blessings

Abrandnewgirl

Matthew 24 and Daniel 12 sum up the post trib rapture.

I used to think on pre-trib doctrine but then saw that this is stretching it

then I seen a lot for Mid-trib rapture and really put my hope in this for this is going to be a terrible time on the earth (The tribulation)

but then a verse in revelation was brought to me and after really looking at it, how could it be anything but post

Rev 20:4-5

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them; and judgement and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither recieved the mark upon thier Foreheads, or in thier hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Dig in guys, it looks as if we will experience the tribulation, although I believe that God will protect us and supernaturally feed us, seeing as we will not be able to buy or sell or even rent an apartment for that matter.

We will pull together as a body and some will be put to death, but what could be better than to be out of this world and be present with God.

God says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection" verse 6

We are a special people, living in a special time, we will see and experience things no one has ever before experienced. Paul says to encourage each other with this (Being part of the first resurrection).

God will never leave us or forsake us, He will be there for us.

Thats my opinion of the tribulation rapture, and I am open to others, but it sure looks as if based on this passage of scripture that it will be post trib.

[Isa]

Matthew 24 and Daniel 12 sum up the post trib rapture.

I used to think on pre-trib doctrine but then saw that this is stretching it

then I seen a lot for Mid-trib rapture and really put my hope in this for this is going to be a terrible time on the earth (The tribulation)

but then a verse in revelation was brought to me and after really looking at it, how could it be anything but post

Rev 20:4-5

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them; and judgement and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither recieved the mark upon thier Foreheads, or in thier hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Dig in guys, it looks as if we will experience the tribulation, although I believe that God will protect us and supernaturally feed us, seeing as we will not be able to buy or sell or even rent an apartment for that matter.

We will pull together as a body and some will be put to death, but what could be better than to be out of this world and be present with God.

God says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection" verse 6

We are a special people, living in a special time, we will see and experience things no one has ever before experienced. Paul says to encourage each other with this (Being part of the first resurrection).

God will never leave us or forsake us, He will be there for us.

Thats my opinion of the tribulation rapture, and I am open to others, but it sure looks as if based on this passage of scripture that it will be post trib.

Dig in guys, it looks as if we will experience the tribulation, although I believe that God will protect us and supernaturally feed us, seeing as we will not be able to buy or sell or even rent an apartment for that matter.

I would like to know where in scripture it says that God would look after the church while they go through the tribulation period.

[Isa]

Here is a 6 point biblical proof for post trib rapture.

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib are biblicaly impossible.

Mark 13:24-27

The Coming of the Son of Man

24

[Guest]

This is not evidence, one way or another (except perhaps as evidence of which position has the majority of evidence), but I find it interesting to note three things here:

1 The Majority of posters, are from the United States

2 The majority view on this topic, in the U.S., is overwhelmingly pre-trib

3 The majority of posts offered in defense of any one position, is post-trib

Interesting!

(Actually, I was looking for an excuse to roll over the counter to 50 pages, lol)

[Isa]

Here is a 6 point biblical proof for post trib rapture.

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib are biblicaly impossible.

Luke 17:26-30

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

I believe the above verse is talking about the second coming of the Son of Man not His appearing to gather His church to Him.

Once again proof positive on how pretribbers view scripture(I BELIEVE this or that)instead of what scripture says.

Actually she/he has this one right it is talking the 2nd coming the problem is the scripture plainly states that it is at the very time that he removes us not 7yrs or 3.5 yrs or the day b4.

vs 29 BUT ON THE SAME DAY lot went out of sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed the all,vs 30 EVEN SO will it be when the son of man is revealed.

If Isa believes this is at the post trib 2nd coming as she claims then they them selves have just proven post trib rapture.

The problem is the is no ''secret rapture'' or separate appearing to gather the church,out side of the 2nd coming it self in scripture.

It has to be force there with no scriptural backing.

When I have said to others at times the scriptures says, they did not like it for they thought I was dictating to them. Obviously you would prefer me to say the scriptures says, well I will say that for you if that makes you happy, but you must realize this aswell I believe what the scriptures say.

You quote the scripture to me but you are misinterpreting the scripture.

vs 29 BUT ON THE SAME DAY lot went out of sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed the all,vs 30 EVEN SO will it be when the son of man is revealed.

Lets have a look at the scripture you have quoted here and what it is talking about.

Luke 17:28-30

28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

The above verse does not prove a post trib rapture it proves that Christ is returning to judge the wicked and to fullfill the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They would be given the land as an eternal possession. Which they do receive in the millennial kingdom. No rapture of saints here sorry.

This verse as I have said many times before is talking about the return of Jesus Christ at His second coming, He gathers out the wicked from the earth and leaves the righteous ones. These righteous ones are made up of the 144,000, the tribe of Judah and the nations that believed in the testamony of the 144,000 etc etc etc.

The church is not included in this verse,and there is once again no rapture of saints, for the righteous ones go alive unchanged into the millennial kingdom.

The church has been raptured b4 the seven year tribulation starts because God did not appoint them to wrath. They return with Christ the Lamb, their Lord and savior and reign with Him with the tribulation saints for the millennial period.

Zechariah 14:5

Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

I think the Bible is quite clear on who comes with the Lord when He returns and the only way they can come with Him is if they had been raptured b4 the tribulation. Hense a pre-trib rapture.

And if you want to know who the armies of the Lrd are they consist of the bride and the tribulation saints and also the angels who gather the elect to one place for the Lord.

Revelation 9:7-9

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

[Isa]

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

John 6:39-54

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[exrockstar]

There is only one 2nd coming and it is after the tribulation matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27,there is no 3rd coming at all so if the rapture is at ''the coming of the Lord''which it obviously is you have the verses you quoted them 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 then you can accept no other view except post trib as biblical.

The 2nd coming is when His feet touch the earth.

1. when Jesus came 2000 years ago is one.

2. When His feet touch the Mount of Olives is two (Zechariah 14:4).

that rapture stuff is not a second coming.

The EARTH will see BOTH of His visitations. That is a "second coming."

You obviously were taught by internet articles, misguided people and a stubborn person called "self."

I read your posts and if no one has told you....you need to get over yourself.

Be patient, humble and stay away from telling people they read or support demonic doctrines.

That's some good advice.