Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

WoW! So overriding the words of Jesus is fine with you because you resort to a logical fallacy?, an argument from silence! 

I recommend that you read the sentence and BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES! 

And, just to be sure of Yeshua`s words in John 5, let's look at that, as well:

John 5:16-30 (KJV)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them (brings them back to life); even so the Son quickeneth whom he will (The Son brings whom He chooses back to life). 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man (He is a true human being). 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

One may see these two resurrections as two different types of resurrection, but I see them as two SEPARATE occasions, as well! They are even LISTED as two different resurrections! They do NOT occur at the same time! The fact that "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice ans shall come forth" does NOT mean that they are all resurrected at the same time! That's very basic!

If I say, "All houses in this subdivision will be made by the XYZ Construction Company," it doesn't imply that they will all be made at the same time! It simply means that, whenever a new house is made, it will be made by the XYZ Construction company!

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hi Retrobyter- 

I am sorry I misunderstood what you were saying...I will correct this last post when I can get back...I can't do it right now...Blessings to you- Gary

Shalom, Gary.

No problem, brother. I look forward to your return.

 

[Uriah]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There's no logical fallacy here.

Sure there is. You are looking for things NOT said by Jesus...as in, "He didn't say"...classic argument from silence.

Look at what He said and BELIEVE the scriptures, not try to put your own version on it that is built on nothing. Otherwise you will juggling multiple resurrections and making a disaster.

Compare His words on the matter: 

Wheat and tares, the fish net, sheep and goats. They are ALL about the PEOPLE that make up the nations! 

[Retrobyter]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

Herod is not the man in 11:45 or 12:7...

Actually, he is the man in Daniel 11:45. No one else has built a palace upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem. Frankly, no one else had the gall to build a palace upon GOD'S Holy Mountain!

But, you're right that Herod is not the man in Daniel 12:7.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

But the man in 12:7 does shatter the power of the holy people for 3.5 years...the man in 12:7 is the little horn in Daniel 8:10 who stamps upon the saints: He is the little horn in 8:10 here:

Daniel 8:5-14 (KJV)

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saintwhich spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

This is explained by the messenger in the following verses:

Daniel 8:20-25 (KJV)

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Alexander the Great). 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms (Greece, Pergamum, Seleucid Empire, and Ptolomaic Empire) shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

From history and the explanation, the man in Daniel 8:10 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who lived from 215 - 164 B.C.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

He is the fourth beast in 7:19 here:

Nope. Being a Grecian ruler, he is part of the third beast, Greece, before the fourth beast that represented Rome came on the scene.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

He is the son of perdition here in 2 Thess. 2:3 here:

No, again. Thar "man of sin, the son of perdition," is someone to consider from a JEWISH perspective! The Greek of the verse and the next says this:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (Berean Greek New Testament  2016)

3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον Θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ καθίσαι, ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν Θεός.

Transliterated, it reads:

3 mee tis humas exapateesee kata meedena tropon; hoti ean mee elthee hee apostasia prooton kai apokalufthee ho anthroopos tees anomias, ho huios tees apooleias,

4 ho antikeimenos kai huperairomenos epi panta legomenon Theon hee sebasma, hooste auton eis ton naon tou Theou kathisai, apodeiknunta heauton hoti estin Theos.

Translated word-for-word, we get:

3 No one you should-deceive  in not-one way; because-[it-is] if not-[until] shall-have-come the divorce first and a-revealing of-the man of-the no-Law/Torah, the son of-the destruction, 
4 the-one opposing and super-exalting-himself above all claimed-to-be God or object-of-worship, so-as-for him into the Temple of-the God to-sit-down, establishing he-himself that he-is God.

This is a JEW who opposes the Torah of God, and is part of the falling-away, the divorce, from keeping the Law! As such, he is labeled "the son of the destruction." He will oppose God and set himself up in the Temple of God as though HE was God, establishing himself that he is God! He is not orthodox, conservative, reformed, or even reconstructionist! He is a atheistic Jew who gains power in Israel for a time, blaspheming God to the point that He MOCKS God and sits in God's place in the new Temple, claiming himself to be God! This is why he is labeled "the son of the destruction." He will NOT thrive nor even survive God's wrath!

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

He is the beast who gets destroyed at the Second Coming in Rev. 19:20 here:

While this may be true about the "man of no-law" in 2 Thessalonians 2, it is NOT true about Daniel 12:7.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

He is the one who makes war with the saints in Dan. 7:21 here:

And is the same beast who makes war with the saints in Rev. 13:7 here:

No, sorry, but you're trying to make him out to be ALL of the bad guys in multiple contexts, and quite to the opposite, there will be OTHERS who fill their own prophecies.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

The scriptures given above are not a fabricated eschatology position...

No, but the fabricated eschatology SMUSHES all these persons together as though they were one guy! THAT'S the fabrication!

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

The first half of the 70th week was not the 3.5 year ministry of Jesus when he was on the earth. If that was the great tribulation, ...

STOP RIGHT THERE! See, you're equating the "great tribulation" to the "first half (or more likely, all) of the 70th week!" But, THERE'S NO AUTHORIZATION FROM SCRIPTURE THAT DEMANDS THIS DEFINITION!

To the contrary, we are told that ...

Matthew 24:4-9 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ' ('I am the Messiah!');

"and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers (many different) places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

The Greek of verse 9 is this:

9 Tότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλίψιν, καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου.

Transliterated, this is ...

9 Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin, kai apoktenousin humas; kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou.

Translated word-for-word, this is ...

9 Then they-will-deliver you (plural) into tribulation/pressure, and they-will-kill you (plural); and you-will-be (plural) hated under all of-the nations through the name of-me.

To whom was He talking? Wasn't He talking to His disciples (vs. 3)? Why would He tell them about SOMEONE ELSE'S tribulation or pressure without first addressing them? Weren't they included? Weren't they going "into" this "tribulation" as well (as others would later)? This "tribulation" began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D.!

This is the information that every Preterist understands and believes! However, Preterists ALSO limit themselves to thinking that the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 are also completely fulfilled in the past! This is WRONG, TOO, because they do not recognize what Yeshua` did just a few verses earlier!

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

"'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

Okay, so ... wait a minute! ... Where have the Jews of Jerusalem seen these words before? Oh, yeah!

Psalm 118:21-26 (KJV)

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

And, the Hebrew words translated as "blessed be he that cometh," "baaruwkh haba'," are seen in the plural at every seaport and airport in the nation Israel, "baaruwkhiym haba'iym!" It means, "Welcome, comers!"

So, He was telling the Jews of Jerusalem that they would not see Him again, after leaving them, until they could WELCOME HIM BACK AS GOD'S MESSIAH!

Remember: Chapter divisions weren't introduced until MUCH later in history, and they are NOT inspired by God! This passage goes right into Matthew 24:1:

Matthew 24:1-3 (KJV)

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple (That tells you where Yeshua` said the words above): and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them,

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Greek: sunteleias tou aioonos = 'of-[the]-consummation of-the age')?"

Then, He begins to tell them in verse 4.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

then Jesus would have come some 2000 years ago for it says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

1) The sun shall be darkened...

2) The moon turned to blood...

3) The sign of the Son of man in heaven appears...

4) All the tribes of the earth mourn..

5) They shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with great glory..

6) He sends his angels and gathers his elect..."

Agreed ... IF the TRIBULATION was a mere 3.5 or 7 years long! IT HASN'T BEEN! The TRIBULATION started in the First Century and will continue until the signs you listed here come true, but the SEVENTIETH WEEK of Daniel 9 was SPLIT IN TWO HALVES by none other than our Lord and Savior, Yeshua` the Messiah, when He left them "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38! The TRIBULATION isn't the SEVENTIETH WEEK! The SEVENTIETH WEEK of Daniel 9 happened BEFORE and now also AFTER the TRIBULATION!

BOTH halves of the SEVENTIETH WEEK of Daniel 9 are in fulfillment of the six purposes of the SEVENTY WEEKS:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy.

These two halves of the SEVENTIETH WEEK are when Yeshua` offers the Kingdom of God to Israel! They refused it in the first half, but they will accept it in the second half, which won't begin until AFTER the Messiah Yeshua` has returned!

This explains why in Revelation, the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur at the opening of the Sixth Seal in chapter 6, but we don't see the 3.5 years mentioned until chapters 11-12!

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

All the above things are to happen 'immediately after the tribulation of those days...if the 3. 5 year ministry of Christ was the 3.5 year tribulation then all the above scriptures would have been fulfilled some 2000 years ago...but they weren't.

Agreed, because the 3.5-year ministry of the Messiah was NOT "the 3.5-year tribulation!" The "tribulation" started when the Messiah left them DESOLATE and won't be finished until the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur, which is -as you say - still in the future! Then, the SECOND 3.5-year ministry of the Messiah will occur!

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

The Son of man has not yet come...the saints have not yet been gathered...Jesus is not ruling on the earth with his saints...it is still future. 

Absolutely true.

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, transmogrified said:

The fulfillment of the above prophecies are yet future:

1) The sun and moon darkened and turned to blood...at the 6th seal...still future

2) The sign of the son of man...has not appeared yet

3) All the tribes of the earth have not mourned or been converted...

4) No one has seen the Son of man coming in the clouds...every eye sees him when he comes, even those who pierced him..there will be no gathering / resurrection rapture of the saints until the Second Coming...

Blessings to you - Gary

 

I also agree with this. Just know that the "TRIBULATION" IS NOT the "SEVENTIETH WEEK" of Daniel 9. The "TRIBULATION" is BETWEEN the two halves of the "SEVENTIETH WEEK," and has lasted MUCH longer than a mere 3.5 years or 7 years! The "TRIBULATION" is the same as the "CHURCH AGE" is the same as "JACOB'S TIME OF TROUBLE." These three labels, for the most part, cover the same 2,000 years (more or less) since Yeshua`s prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:21 PM, Uriah said:

Sure there is. You are looking for things NOT said by Jesus...as in, "He didn't say"...classic argument from silence.

Shalom, Uriah.

We all look for the things that Yeshua` did say and notice the inconsistencies in some people's claims of what He said, by not finding such a source. That's NOT a "classic argument from silence"; it is countering the claims that He said something when HE DID NOT! For instance, HE DID NOT say that these two VERY DIFFERENT general resurrections occur at the SAME TIME!

On 6/6/2022 at 12:21 PM, Uriah said:

Look at what He said and BELIEVE the scriptures, not try to put your own version on it that is built on nothing.

Never have. I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES EXACTLY as said! 

On 6/6/2022 at 12:21 PM, Uriah said:

Otherwise you will juggling multiple resurrections and making a disaster.

Compare His words on the matter: 

Wheat and tares, the fish net, sheep and goats. They are ALL about the PEOPLE that make up the nations! 

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is  (=) the Son of man; 
38 The field is (=) the world (Greek: kosmos = "world-system");
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil;
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (Greek: aioonas = "age");
and the reapers are (=) the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This is the most straight-forward of all the parables that the Messiah taught. He even gives us a LIST of the elements of the parable and what they represent! All one has to do is make the substitution into His parable:

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world-system: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the Son of man came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world-system? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."'"

Then, add His explanation:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonas = "age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them INTO a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

The "tares that are sown" INTO the Messiah's Kingdom are "harvested" OUT of His Kingdom at the end, and are "gathered into bundled to BURN them" at that time! That is the same time as when the children of the Kingdom - the wheat - are gathered OUT of His Kingdom and INTO His Father's Kingdom - His "Barn." (No resurrection necessary. They've already been alive in His Kingdom.)

Matthew 13:47-50 (KJV)

47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 

49 "So shall it be at the end of the world (Greek: aioonas = "age"): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The fish net (a seining net), gathers good (kosher, fish acceptable for eating) and bad (unclean) fish at the same time - again, at the END of the Messiah's Kingdom. The good are kept; the bad are thrown away into the furnace of fire, already mentioned in the Wheat and Tares parable!

Both of these parables are about the Kingdom of the Messiah and about the INDIVIDUALS - the people themselves - that make up His Kingdom, but the sheep and goats is NOT said to be a parable at all and is SPECIFICALLY STATED to be about the NATIONS, not the people within the nations!

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations (Greek: panta ta ethnee = "all the nations"): and he shall separate them (Greek: autous = "them," third-person plural, referring back to "ethnee") one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

You can't get around these facts, if you're being honest with the texts.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Retrobyter

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

HE DID NOT say that these two VERY DIFFERENT general resurrections occur at the SAME TIME!

Not so. Both sheep and goats are receiving eternal sentencing. Fish in the net are taken in together. Wheat and tares taken simultaneously. 

Matt 13:39- The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Matt 13:49 & 40- “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Matt 24:3- Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

It is at the end of this age when Jesus returns, NOT at the end of His 1K yr. period!

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

SPECIFICALLY STATED to be about the NATIONS, not the people within the nations!

Totally mind boggling! I told you, this kind of treatment of scriptures produces disaster outcomes. Don't bother explaining how nations are sent o fire prepared for the devil, but not people. Or nations, not people are sent into the place prepared for them.

 

[transmogrified]

On 6/7/2022 at 7:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

On 6/4/2022 at 7:52 PM, transmogrified said:

Herod is not the man in 11:45 or 12:7...

Actually, he is the man in Daniel 11:45. No one else has built a palace upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem. Frankly, no one else had the gall to build a palace upon GOD'S Holy Mountain!

But, you're right that Herod is not the man in Daniel 12:7.

The statement is made that Herod is the man in 11:45 but Herod is not the man in 12:7.

 

On 6/7/2022 at 7:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

On 6/4/2022 at 7:52 PM, transmogrified said:

He is the beast who gets destroyed at the Second Coming in Rev. 19:20 here:

While this may be true about the "man of no-law" in 2 Thessalonians 2, it is NOT true about Daniel 12:7.

The statement is made that Herod is the man in 11:45 but not the man in 12:7...then it is said that 12:7 is not the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2...who is the man in 12:7?

 

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

On 6/7/2022 at 9:23 PM, Retrobyter said:

For instance, HE DID NOT say that these two VERY DIFFERENT general resurrections occur at the SAME TIME!

The sheep and the goats are both resurrected and judged at the Second Coming...

The wheat and the tares are both resurrected and judged at the end of this age..

The good and the bad fish are both resurrected and judged at the end of the age...

He will judge the living and the dead AT his appearing and kingdom...(The Second Coming)  'The dead' includes all that are dead, both good and bad.

In all the above scriptures it shows both the good and the bad are resurrected at the same time...the end of the age is the Second Coming...his appearing and kingdom is the Second Coming...the harvest is the end of this age which is the Second Coming..when the Son of man comes is the Second Coming...

The sheep are there with the goats...he did not say to the sheep 'Come ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdom...' and then 1000 years later say to the goats, 'depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire...' NO. Both were present WHEN the Son of man came...Both were resurrected WHEN the son of man came. Both were judged WHEN the Son of man came. The sheep entered into the kingdom at the same time the goats were cast into the fire, WHEN the son of man came.

He did not gather the wheat into the barn at the end of this age, and cast the tares into the fire 1000 years later. NO. He said 'Let both grow together until the harvest...' The harvest is the same time frame for both the wheat and the tares...the harvest is the end of THIS age..its not the end of THIS age for the wheat and then then the harvest is the end of the 1000 years for the tares. NO. The harvest is the end of this age...both are resurrected and rewarded at the end of this age.

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HE DID NOT say that these two VERY DIFFERENT general resurrections occur at the SAME TIME!

He did say the resurrection of both the just and the unjust would happen at the same time.

[transmogrified]

 

 

 

On 6/5/2022 at 9:54 AM, transmogrified said:

On 6/4/2022 at 7:52 PM, transmogrified said:

The first half of the 70th week was not the 3.5 year ministry of Jesus when he was on the earth. If that was the great tribulation then Jesus would have came some 2000 years ago for it says:

Hi Retrobyter- 

I am sorry I misunderstood what you were saying...I will correct this last post when I can get back...I can't do it right now...Blessings to you- Gary

Hello Retrobyter- I misunderstood and answered incorrectly concerning the above quote where I said

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"the first half of the 70th week was not the 3.5 year ministry of Jesus when he was on the earth. If that was the great tribulation then Jesus would have come some 2000 years ago."

My work has taken all my time up for the last week or I would have got back with you sooner. 

It is true that the first half of the 70th week is not the 3.5 year ministry of Christ while he was here on the earth, but I was answering one error with another error.

The first error is that the 3.5 year ministry of Christ on the earth is not the first half of the 70th week, the second error was that I mistakenly stated that if the ministry of Christ was the first half of the 70th week then Jesus would have come some 2000 years ago.

The 70th week consists of seven years, broken up into the first half of 3.5 years and the latter half of 3.5 years.

It was stated that the great tribulation started some 2000 years ago, but this is false. 

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Agreed ... IF the TRIBULATION was a mere 3.5 or 7 years long! IT HASN'T BEEN! The TRIBULATION started in the First Century and will continue until the signs you listed here come true,

 The above quote states 'if the tribulation was a mere 3.5 or 7 years long!' I am not sure why it would be said that 'it hasn't been.' I am not saying there were 3.5 or 7 years in the past that has been the great tribulation...The great tribulation starts WHEN the man of sin sits in the temple of God and it only lasts 3.5 years, not the entire 7 years. 

 

Jesus said in Matthew 24 specifically WHEN the great tribulation would start:

Matthew 24 :15

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When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

....then in verse 21-

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"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

So, in summary, WHEN you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place THEN there shall be great tribulation...I am not saying there has not been tribulation all down through time, but the specific time frame called the great tribulation, such as has never been, did not start in the first Century, but starts when the man of sin sits in the temple of God showing himself to be God.

He was referring to a future time in which the disciples would see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, and then he was saying WHEN you see this THEN there shall be great tribulation.

The events that took place in 70 AD were not the worst that had ever happened since the beginning of the world, and certainly they are not the worst that ever will be. Looking at just the events of the 7 trumpets yet to sound makes the destruction of the temple in 70 AD pale in comparison. 

I realize you are saying the whole time frame from the first century is included in the great tribulation, but the starting point is not in the first century, but rather when the antichrist sits in the temple of God, and this has not yet come. 

The other error is that Jesus is the one who caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease as quoted below:

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27 And he (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years) he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (of the scribes and Pharisees) he (Messiah) shall make it ("thy holy city") DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (THE END), and that determined shall be poured upon the (ones left) desolate.

The one spoken of in Daniel that causes the sacrifices and oblations to cease is the antichrist, not Jesus, as it says here:

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And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, 

This is the same one who takes away the daily sacrifices in Daniel 11:31-

 

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And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The man in 11:31 is not Jesus, nor is it Herod, nor is it Antiochus...it is the man of sin from Dan. 11:21 and forward.. it is not history, but prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[Linkin]

The tribulation commences at the end of the Second Exile of the Nation of Israel. It is then when the last Week (7 years) of Daniel's 70 Week Prophecy begin.

The two witnesses time is 1260 Days [about 3.5 years] then the abomination of desolation [40 days] then the reign of the beast/antichrist 42 months [about 3.5 years].

Jesus returns at the end of that time on Yom Kippur 2036.

A Partial Explanation Below:

The Second Exile is coming to an end, according to Leviticus 26 which gives us the time it will last.
Lev. 26:17 You will be DEFEATED BY YOUR ENEMIES [REFERS TO THE FIRST EXILE]...v18 And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will PUNISH YOU 7 TIMES MORE [refers to the Second Exile] for your sins.

The first Exile lasted 70 years, (Jeremiah 25v11, Zechariah 1v12, Zechariah 7v4, Daniel 9v2, 2 Chronicles 36:21 & Jeremiah 29:10). The punishment for the Second Exile is 70x7=490 years and is repeated 4 times in total by God, so the total is 1960 years.

Jesus himself warned Israel if they did did not repent destruction would come. Luke 19:41-44. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army exactly 40 years later. Jeremiah also warned Israel for 40 years before it was destroyed in the First Exile by the Babylonians. 1960 years from 70 AD takes us to 2030, however our calendar is a few months different to the Jewish calendar so the year for the end of the Exile will be 2029 on Rosh Hashanah. This is also when the last week (7 years) of Daniel’s 70 Week prophecy commences.
Jesus return is on Yom Kippur 2036 on a Jubilee Year, (Isaiah 61......”to set the captives free”). (Leviticus 25:9-11 to sound the trumpet and to “proclaim liberty”).
The Last Trumpet. Zechariah 9:14, Matt. 24:31,
1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

 

Revelation 22v16

16 I, Jesus, sent My messenger to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the Root and the Descendant of David, the bright and morning star.***

***Balaam prophesied of a “Star” rising who is the Messiah (Num. 24:16-19). Peter stated that the “morning star” would “arise” on the Day of Christ’s return (2 Pet. 1:19). Here Jesus referred to Himself as the “bright and morning star,” which is actually the planet Venus when it appears early in the morning before sunrise. “The sign of the Son of man in the sky” which occurs while the sun and moon are darkened (Matt. 24:30) very well may involve the planet Venus rising in conjunction with Regulus (King) in the constellation Leo (Lion). This conjunction at dawn (viewed from Jerusalem) will occur on Yom Kippur 2036, and will appear as the King star (Regulus) crowning Venus, the morning star.

 

2 Peter 1v19 

19 And we have the prophetic word verified19 to which you do well in heeding (like a lamp appearing in a dark place until the Day20 breaks and the morning star21 arises), 20 knowing this first in your hearts:22 that all prophecy of Scripture does not generate its own explanation.

19 Peter and John, the two living witnesses of this event, confirmed the prophetic Scriptures through their eyewitness testimony to the preview Jesus gave them of the coming Kingdom.

20 “The Day” refers to day of Jesus’ return (1 Pet. 1:16; 2 Pet. 3:8,10).

21 The planet Venus was widely known as the “morning star.” According to Rev. 22:16, Jesus is “the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.” A literal interpretation may indicate that (Venus) will arise on the Day of Jesus’ return. “The sign of the Son of man in the sky” (Matt. 24:30) immediately precedes Jesus coming, while the sun is dark and the moon is red. This very well may involve the planet Venus in conjunction with the brightest star Regulus (King) in the constellation Leo (Lion). See Rev. 22:16.

22 Most translations have the prepositional phrase “in your hearts” modifying the clause “the morning star arises” which would necessarily make arising of the morning star merely metaphorical. However, the Greek grammar does not support or require that understanding. A more literal reading places the prepositional phrase “in your hearts” as beginning the next sentence, and makes perfect sense since Scripture refers to knowledge being in the heart. (cf. Psalm 37:31; Psalm 64:6; Psalm 119:11; Prov. 2:2; Prov. 7:3; Prov. 12:23; Prov. 14:10; Prov. 18:15; Prov. 22:17; Prov. 23:12; Eccl. 7:22).