Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

31 minutes ago, Josheb said:

1) Where does it say God will bring Israel back in the 20th or 21st century? 

2) Pick a random sample of "return of Israel" passages and ask yourself one question: do those passages make mention of the Messiah's coming? 

3) Does modern Israel actually look much like the Israel of the Bible? If not then Israel has NOT been brought back. 

4) How does the New Testament define "Israel"?  

5) Future of what? Future of those to whom the prophecy was originally written? Or future to those of us living in the 21st century? 

The broader meaning of Israel comes back to the nation. The 144,000 witnesses are of the Jewish people. Jerusalem is a real city and part of the real area that God will rule from, return to and restore the people of Israel to. Just because we realize that God has not yet brought them back does not mean we do not know He will one day. That has nothing to do with a particular century, it has to do with Israel being dealt with in that seventieth week of prophesy, leading to repentance and restoration of a remnant. God has not abandoned Israel. Neither has He restored the unrepentant Israel in 1948. Can anyone cite a verse that says God will restore a still rebellious and unsaved Israel? No. That will be after the vengeance. 

[Sister]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

My thoughts: Isaiah 66:8 (KJV) Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Hi Dennis

The above is speaking about the resurrection of the saints.

 

Isaiah 66:7   Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Jesus was the first one resurrected out of this woman Zion.  First born of the dead.

 Colossians 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We shall follow in his footsteps.

  Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

future.....speaking about the children of the resurrection which is to come.  All these are accepted by the Lord officially.  THIS IS A NEW NATION.  A DIFFERENT PEOPLE, all made Perfect, given white robes and now sinless.  They will teach and guide others into the kingdom of God, into this nation.

  Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Speaking to Israel.  God has not forgotten them.  The chosen remnants will be healed during the thousand years, and will take part in the 2nd resurrection.  Zion's womb will not be shut off after the first resurrection.

  Isaiah 66:10   Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Speaking about Zion, Holy Jerusalem which comes from above.  That city.  God's kingdom on earth which will be a light to not only Israel but all the nations.  Rejoice with her.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Is there a reason my questions were not answered?

So yes in verses I recall that talk about God bringing them back, I see Jesus pretty well everywhere. For example, when it talks about after the vengeance that means after the wrath of the Lamb/God. Where it says all Israel will be saved that is when they see the Lamb coming. When it says they will be safe that means Jesus will take care of things.

 

The other question about the 21 century made no real sense. I did explain in reply that what it all hinges on is Israel repenting and Jesus coming. Is there some reason you ignore the answers I gave?

[dad2]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Dennis

The above is speaking about the resurrection of the saints.

 

Isaiah 66:7   Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Jesus was the first one resurrected out of this woman Zion.  First born of the dead.

 Colossians 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We shall follow in his footsteps.

  Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

future.....speaking about the children of the resurrection which is to come.  All these are accepted by the Lord officially.  THIS IS A NEW NATION.  A DIFFERENT PEOPLE, all made Perfect, given white robes and now sinless.  They will teach and guide others into the kingdom of God, into this nation.

  Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Speaking to Israel.  God has not forgotten them.  The chosen remnants will be healed during the thousand years, and will take part in the 2nd resurrection.  Zion's womb will not be shut off after the first resurrection.

  Isaiah 66:10   Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Speaking about Zion, Holy Jerusalem which comes from above.  That city.  God's kingdom on earth which will be a light to not only Israel but all the nations.  Rejoice with her.

Isaiah 66:6

 

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isaiah 66:7

 

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Isaiah 66:8

 

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

 

 

So it looks like We see the vengeance again here! Then AFTER the labor pains, the very minute after when they repent, boom, the nation of Israel is born forever. THEN God brings them back to the land. Then He takes care of their enemies in a New York minute. Then they dwell in safety etc. The Jews. Israel On earth.  

[Sister]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

 

 

 

So it looks like We see the vengeance again here! Then AFTER the labor pains, the very minute after when they repent, boom, the nation of Israel is born forever. THEN God brings them back to the land. Then He takes care of their enemies in a New York minute. Then they dwell in safety etc. The Jews. Israel On earth.  

Greetings to you in the Lord Jesus, dad2

The vengeance is because of Zion.  All who came against her will be severely punished.  Israel went against God's woman also, that city of peace and truth.

Trying to bring Zion to everyone's attention.  Zion is God's woman.  His city.  His kingdom on earth.  Have to go through Jesus to enter.  Zion is the apple of God's eye where his followers spiritually dwell.  They will be born again of the spirit in the resurrection of the saints.  Born out of Zion's womb this time, just like Christ did, to receive everlasting life.

God said himself that he is sending the kings of the North against Israel. He said he will punish, and it will begin in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 25). It's all God's doing.  All sin must be punished.  Israel first, then the gentiles, even the Christians who have not washed their robes clean or who rebel against the truth.

Israel will only realise that Jesus is their Messiah when he appears in the sky to stop that great war during the 6th trumpet/6th vial/ 6th plague.  It will be a moment of recognition for them, for he will provide a way for them to flee the city, whilst the armies take off to gather at Armageddon to prepare war against the Lamb.  That is the day and the time that they acknowledge Christ has come to save and it has nothing to do with them repenting, but has everything to do with mercy!  God's plan all along!  They will come to him with tears and supplications, with shame and guilt, but Christ will teach them during the thousand years and they will heal (the chosen remnants only)

I look forward to see if you agree, because so far I know what you have said is truth and I attest to that and the 144,000 we can speak about later.

God bless.

 

 

 

[dad2]

42 minutes ago, Sister said:

Greetings to you in the Lord Jesus, dad2

The vengeance is because of Zion.  All who came against her will be severely punished.  Israel went against God's woman also, that city of peace and truth.

Trying to bring Zion to everyone's attention.  Zion is God's woman.  His city.  His kingdom on earth.  Have to go through Jesus to enter.  Zion is the apple of God's eye where his followers spiritually dwell.  They will be born again of the spirit in the resurrection of the saints.  Born out of Zion's womb this time, just like Christ did, to receive everlasting life.

God said himself that he is sending the kings of the North against Israel. He said he will punish, and it will begin in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 25). It's all God's doing.  All sin must be punished.  Israel first, then the gentiles, even the Christians who have not washed their robes clean or who rebel against the truth.

Israel will only realise that Jesus is their Messiah when he appears in the sky to stop that great war during the 6th trumpet/6th vial/ 6th plague.  It will be a moment of recognition for them, for he will provide a way for them to flee the city, whilst the armies take off to gather at Armageddon to prepare war against the Lamb.  That is the day and the time that they acknowledge Christ has come to save and it has nothing to do with them repenting, but has everything to do with mercy!  God's plan all along!  They will come to him with tears and supplications, with shame and guilt, but Christ will teach them during the thousand years and they will heal (the chosen remnants only)

I look forward to see if you agree, because so far I know what you have said is truth and I attest to that and the 144,000 we can speak about later.

God bless.

 

 

 

 Salvation is God's mercy that is true. But it comes by asking, or we might say repenting. God is not going to save every person in Israel. Most apparently are prophesied to be killed. There will come a time when all those left alive, after all that tribulation and trials, will call out to Him and be saved. Not just because they are Jews, but because they finally believe and receive Him. The unbelieving Christ rejecting Jews will not be alive at that time. The remnant will believe. God in His mercy will save them. God calls away to heaven the Christian believers, and then He deals with Israel in that last week of history. I don't think Israel is all saved just because they were born Jews. They will be saved like everyone else, by belief in Jesus. It is only after they believe finally that they get saved. (otherwise God could just save them all now)

It seems that often Zion refers to Israel. Now maybe there are other applications also, but the batch of verses about Zion I just looked at more or less all refer to Israel. If someone wants to say New Jerusalem is Zion also, well, I won't argue since I am not an expert of the word Zion.

 

Also I am not sure about Christians being punished, if you are talking about the judgment seat of Jesus. That is for rewards, not salvation. If you mean God deals with believers in this life on earth, well, yes, His judgments are wonderful and for our good.

Edited July 28, 2021 by dad2

[Selah7]

Ezekiel 37:15-19

15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’

. . .

My understanding:  

This is prophecy and will happen at the restoration in the Millennium, which begins at the 7th Trump, the return of Jesus Christ.  The house of Judah is not the house of Israel.  They are split into two houses.  Judah, along with their allotment of Levites and many from the tribe of Benjamin, comprise the "House of Judah" while Joseph, of whom the tribe of Ephraim was the largest, along with the rest of the 10 northern tribes comprise the "House of Israel"—There are two houses, two sticks.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Selah7

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Ezekiel 37:15-19

15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’

. . .

My understanding:  

This is prophecy and will happen at the restoration in the Millennium, which begins at the 7th Trump, the return of Jesus Christ.  The house of Judah is not the house of Israel.  They are split into two houses.  Judah, along with their allotment of Levites and many from the tribe of Benjamin, comprise the "House of Judah" while Joseph, of whom the tribe of Ephraim was the largest, along with the rest of the 10 northern tribes comprise the "House of Israel"—There are two houses, two sticks.

Doing the arithmetic, the number do not add up to twelve? Where do you place the tribe of Dan? 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Doing the arithmetic, the number do not add up to twelve? Where do you place the tribe of Dan? 

It's the two houses, Judah and Israel, but they are not yet joined back together. 

2 Kings 18:9-13

9 Now it came to pass in the fourth year of King Hezekiah, which was the seventh year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against Samaria and besieged it. 10 And at the end of three years they took it. In the sixth year of Hezekiah, that is, the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken. 11 Then the king of Assyria carried Israel away captive to Assyria, and put them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes, 12 because they did not obey the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed His covenant and all that Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded; and they would neither hear nor do them.

13 And in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and took them.

The 10 northern tribes, after they were cleared from the Assyrian, were scattered and settled in many countries all over the world.  This is the house of Israel.  …But the house of Judah (2 tribes) was in Babylon for a period of time.  Assyria took many from the two tribes when they took all the fenced cities.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Selah7

[dad2]

6 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Ezekiel 37:15-19

15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’

. . .

My understanding:  

This is prophecy and will happen at the restoration in the Millennium, which begins at the 7th Trump, the return of Jesus Christ.  The house of Judah is not the house of Israel.  They are split into two houses.  Judah, along with their allotment of Levites and many from the tribe of Benjamin, comprise the "House of Judah" while Joseph, of whom the tribe of Ephraim was the largest, along with the rest of the 10 northern tribes comprise the "House of Israel"—There are two houses, two sticks.

OK, so then God gathers Israel after the vengeance. I guess you agree that was not in 1948