Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

Zechariah 14:4

 

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

No great valley formed in 70 AD. The mountain spoken about was not split in two. Trying to spiritualize this is exactly unbelief.

 

5...and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

The Lord with all the saints did not come then either, obviously.

 

There is no history that says there was no night anymore either.

 

Zechariah 14:7

 

7 ...But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord , not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

 

Zechariah 14:8

 

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

 

Two specific seas into which living waters would go toward. That did not happen in the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD.

 

And now for the coup de gras.

 

 

9   And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord , and his name one.

 

Look around. The earth still has wicked nations, Jesus has not returned. When He does, in that day, He will be the ruler of all the world.

1 Cor 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them: because they are spiritually discerned."

The Bible is Spiritually discerned.

Those who take everything as literal and reject the spiritual,"neither can he know them".

 

 

[Keras]

8 hours ago, abcdef said:

1 Cor 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them: because they are spiritually discerned."

The Bible is Spiritually discerned.

Those who take everything as literal and reject the spiritual,"neither can he know them".

 

 

But those who make Prophesies that can be literally fulfilled, to be just Spiritual, are making a serious mistake.

Zechariah 14:3-7 speaks of physical things and events, that can and will happen, as confirmed by other prophesies. Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

 

 

[dad2]

12 hours ago, OneLight said:

The fig tree blooming is another way of saying "When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near." from Matthew 24:32.

That does not mean that God restored Israel! That means that, like a tree with leaves, when we see these things start to happen, the time is near. 

[dad2]

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

1 Cor 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them: because they are spiritually discerned."

The Bible is Spiritually discerned.

Those who take everything as literal and reject the spiritual,"neither can he know them".

 

 

Discerning does not mean ignoring what is said six ways from Sunday and also disbelieving it all. That is what waving it away as unreal and spiritual is. Exactly.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

That does not mean that God restored Israel! That means that, like a tree with leaves, when we see these things start to happen, the time is near. 

The fig tree has represented the people of Israel in scripture.  What makes you think it doesn't now?

 

[dad2]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

The fig tree has represented the people of Israel in scripture.  What makes you think it doesn't now?

 

Who says it doesn't? However, the parable of the leaves coming was mainly about the signs and knowing the end was near when we see those signs. Nowhere does it say one of the signs is God restoring Israel! That comes later. That comes when they repent and after the time of Jacob's trouble that gets them ready to repent. One instance earlier in the gospels where it does look like Jesus is talking about Israel is where He dried up the fig tree! That shows that Israel rejected Him and was dried up now. There is no bible support for a claim that Israel being restored is one of the signs of the end. God did not restore Israel yet. 

Ps 102:15  So the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord , and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

We do not see that yet. It is after this as the next verse says

Psalms 102:16

 

When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by dad2

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

Who says it doesn't? However, the parable of the leaves coming was mainly about the signs and knowing the end was near when we see those signs. Nowhere does it say one of the signs is God restoring Israel! That comes later. That comes when they repent and after the time of Jacob's trouble that gets them ready to repent. One instance earlier in the gospels where it does look like Jesus is talking about Israel is where He dried up the fig tree! That shows that Israel rejected Him and was dried up now. There is no bible support for a claim that Israel being restored is one of the signs of the end. God did not restore Israel yet. 

Ps 102:15  So the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord , and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

We do not see that yet. It is after this as the next verse says

Psalms 102:16

 

When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

 

Now I see where we differ.  It is in the definition of "restoring".  I am talking physical, as in creating a nation again, and you are talking spiritual as in restoring His people back to Him.  I don't think we really disagree otherwise.

[abcdef]

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Discerning does not mean ignoring what is said six ways from Sunday and also disbelieving it all. That is what waving it away as unreal and spiritual is. Exactly.

There is scriptural evidence that the meaning of the symbols is the subject, and that the symbols themselves are not the subject intended, the symbols are not literal, it's what the symbols represent that are the subject. 

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You would probably agree that there is symbolism in the Bible. The fig tree and the olive tree, for example as in Matt 24:32-35, Rev 11:4. They are the people of Israel.

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Matt 24:32-35, The time when the branches sprout is spring and summer is coming. This shows the people of Israel expecting fruit from the new covenant, day of salvation, Pentecost kingdom. But before that happens, before the fruit can grow to its ripened  abundance,  the unbelieving natural branches are broken off and Jerusalem falls in 70 AD.

Jesus was speaking to just 4 apostles Mk 13:3. 

Matt 24:32, Israel as a tree.

Matt 24:33, Know that the 67-70 AD destruction is near.

Matt 24:34, "This generation" is the generation of the 4 apostles. John was to see almost all of of the prophecies come true, that is, the times leading up to the 70 AD destruction, and an insight into the time after that. (You might say that the big questions would be, "How long will the times of the gentiles last, how long after the 70 AD destruction? "When or if Jerusalem will be restored to the people of Israel?")

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Now take the image of Israel, as the unbelieving broken off branches, being thrown into the fires of God's judgment against them, after the fall of 70 AD Jerusalem.

This would parallel the picture of the trees being burned in Rev 8:7 at the first trumpet.

The grass is Israel also,

Isa 40:6, "The voice said Cry. And he said, What shall I cry?  All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:"

Isa 40:7, "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

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Now why would we abandon the imagery that has been established by the scriptures?

Why would we switch, from the images given to us by the entire Bible, about the people of Israel, to a literal interpretation of the Revelation that is about the planet earth instead of the people of Israel?

The first trumpet is showing the grass and the trees being burned. In the images that John is seeing in 85 AD ish time period, it is showing the unbelieving broken branches, who did not flee into the gentile nations, suffering under the Roman beast nation.

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You can't just make the symbols mean whatever you want, as you have implied, there must be some scriptural support for the symbols interpretation. 

If you are seeing the literal as the only interpretation, then look a little deeper.

Most of the symbolism of the Revelation is found in the OT also and can be understood.

Israel as the fig trees, olive trees, and the grass can be expanded. 

Jerusalem is the mountain of God Dan. 9:16, the earthly Jerusalem.  Heb 12:22 the spiritual Jerusalem is symbolized as a mountain.

The waters are people Rev 17:15. The seas of the gentile nations are seen in Dan. 7:2-3, and Rev 13:1.

The symbols are not the intended subject, but what the symbols represent is the intended subject, which is centered on the people of Israel and not the planet earth.

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The spiritual side of the scriptures is centered on good and evil, but in the Bible it is also centered on the people of Israel and the good and evil that is shown towards them by men and God.

There are spirits that support the people of Israel and spirits that are allowed to harm the people of Israel when God withdraws His blessings.

All the terrible things that are shown in the seals/trumpets story are about the unbelieving natural branches that were broken off, beginning in the 37 AD ish time period, when the gentiles were allowed into the new covenant kingdom. 

 The symbolism explains it.

[TCC]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:49 PM, Josheb said:

Got any scripture for that? Do you know much history? How about physics (what actually happens if the sun goes out?)? 

Here's some recommended reading aside from Chilton's book and those ops to which I linked everyone: 

"Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry
"The Bible and the Future" by Anthony Hoekema
"A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger
"Last Days Madness" by Gary Demar 

I'm not saying you have to agree with everything they write, just that there is a lot of information for you to consider that is very relevant. There was no mistaking when the tribulation days of vengeance occurred. Modern-day futurists ignore both scripture and Church doctrinal history to rely on a guy who quite literally invented! stuff nowhere stated in scripture. His invention is less than 200 years old but because few know modern church history (and the occurring heresies) they don't know Darbyism is new or how radically different it is. 

I'll leave you with this simple comparison of two passages having to do with the "days of vengeance." The term originally comes from Isaiah. Although God spoke of His vengeance very early on in scripture the day of vengeance is found in Isaiah 61. 

Isaiah 61:1-6
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to captives and freedom to prisoners;  to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn,  to grant those who mourn in Zion, giving them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.  Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devastations; and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations.  Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks, and foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers.  But you will be called the priests of the LORD; you will be spoken of as ministers of our God. You will eat the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast."

It is mentioned again two chapters later. 

Isaiah 63:1-6
"Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, this One who is majestic in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength? It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  Why is your apparel red, and your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?  I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger and trampled them in My wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled on my garments, and I stained all my raiment.  For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come.  I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me.  I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

So we see the day of vengeance is tied to the Spirit of the Lord being upon His anointed and his bringing the good new to the afflicted, his setting free the captives (remember Zechariah 9?) the planting of the Lord, the repair of ruined cities and desolate generations, and the calling of all to be priests of God. The day of vengeance is tied to to the one who is righteous to save, the bloody garment, and the year of redemption, and God's own arm bring salvation. All of these things are associated in the New Testament with Jesus in his incarnation. 

Jesus himself plainly stated the Isaiah 61 text was coming true in the days of his earthly ministry. 

Luke 4:16-21
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.  And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,  'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,  to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.'  And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.  And he began to say to them, 'Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'”

Then later in his ministry, just before he was to surrender his life for us, Jesus again referenced Isaiah to say, 

Luke 21:20-24
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.  Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;  because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.  Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;  and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Remember what I said about the basic precepts of reading and understanding scripture: identify the author and his audience and first understand the text as the author and his original audience would have understood it. 

So ask yourself, "Who is the 'you' in the Luke 21 passage?" because the original audience and the "you" of Luke 21:20-24 is NOT anyone living in the 21st century. The audience affiliation has to be completely ignored in order for that interpretation to be made and anyone holding to a literal reading of scripture has just violated their own rules if they don't read the "you" as Jesus audience that day. His audience did see Jerusalem surrounded by armies and they did see it trampled by Gentiles. History records the survivors fled to the mountains - as far as we know not a single Christian was killed. 

Jesus quoted from Isaiah and he told his first century listeners they would see the events he was describing. He told them they would see Isaiah's days of vengeance. 

Do you believe God's word?

Do you believe God's word as written? 

D you believe God's word as written without any modern-day embellishment?

If the answer to those questions is "Yes," then the days of vengeance have come and gone and whether or not we understand how they manifested in the New Testament era they did happen. Scripture says so. 

 

 

This exchange between us started because I asked a few fairly plain, simple, and very relevant-to-your-comment questions and it took me request after request after request after request after request after request and I still didn't get any scripture. I got some rhetorical questions that showed an effort to shift the onus but o answer to the question(s) asked. 

If you will notice scripture itself states quite plainly Isaiah's day of vengeance happened in the time of Jesus' audience. There can be no mistaking what scripture states.

When I see this particular view I look for the counterbalance of sober thought that would be presumed to accompany it. When this view is shared and stressed how new some doctrines are and leave out what it is comparing "new" to, to me, it more than suggests it is not as sober minded as it thinks upon itself it is. For it appears to be lacking self awareness. 

For a good chunk of the church age (from like 400 AD to 1500 AD) the church was pretty much in the dark ages ruled by Catholics chaining bibles to the pulpit not wanting the common people to read the word for themselves. So if that is the foundation of what sound biblical positions are to you (those beliefs about the bible influenced by Alexandrian School producing massive allegorizing and partnered  with keeping laity biblically illiterate on purpose for holy superior show) I would ask you to consider this logic. 

For if amillennialism is true it is true as enforced by the Catholic church. And we would be claiming that to move from that position is to move from holy Catholic churches protection of God's word (even though used to intimidate and gaslight laity). With those odds, I would say a few hundred years of thinking outside the box of inquisitional tortures, if you did not have the proper doctrine, might be the right amount of time for sober men to better understand what the word is saying WHEN its not under oppressive dogma. Blessings. 

 

[TCC]

One way I think we might look upon the issue of where Israel is in the timeline of God's calendar = Ezekiel 38. 

Just in general, what it would seem to be true about Israel is that Ezekiel 36 and 37 describe an evolutionary development in the later days and would tend to blend two timeframes together for poetic cohesion of God's intent. When Old Testament saints viewed their Messiah coming they viewed Him as coming once and setting up the kingdom. They did not have the spiritual foresight to understand that there was a first and second coming. 

So applying that to how we are shown the Jewish nation in the last days we can see that they have been gathered, and had many struggles but also many successes. They also had been given recent favor of their own capital Jerusalem and Golan Heights. In addition they also claimed to be a "Religious Nation." 

Knesset makes it official: Israel is a Jewish state (jns.org)

My point is that it would seem that Israel will come back to their land as in 1948 and slowly emerge into a world super power (which they are today), and have super strong defenses, and technology hotly sought after, and riches (like natural gas and oil recently discovered)...all as they get skin and meat on those dry bones. I believe we are seeing poetically Israel having come of age as a nation again, amen. But it would appear Ezekiel's use of prophecy implies difficult times coming for Israel (Ezekiel 38-39) and the millennial kingdom thereafter (Ezekiel 40-48). I believe what Ezekiel 38 demonstrated is an Israel during (or even approaching) the tribulation period (which during they will become a nation for God again via the 144k--during the tribulation winning souls for Christ). 

THE PROBLEM OF EZEKIEL 38 

There has been a recent line up in 2017 of Russia, Iran, and Turkey. This has never been before in history. In November of 2017 theses nations formed a UN alliance. Turkey and Iran are obvious to get from the text. Russia is a bit harder. Josephus in the 1st century thought Magog was the Scythian people (who's region in those days be referred to as Kazakhstan). The Scythian people historically have been (from 800 to 200 BC) a people governing various regions in the upper Black Sea areas (known as Russia). Russia considers the Scythians their ancestors through their own museum displays and online searchable connections and affirmations. Ironically over the course of the past several years, Russia, Turkey, and Iran have been jointly meeting in Kazakhstan regarding Syria. It would appear that Ezekiel 38 is coming into form. Perhaps something to further research and pulse developments as more nations listed in Ezekiel 38 lean toward lining up with this prophecy. Blessings.