So Many Considering SUICIDE These Days....

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Church is supposed to take care by providing Shelter n love.

Also serious depression can lead to suicide if they do not get help.

[missmuffet]

7 hours ago, Tammy Roesch said:

Yes, I agree with you...I also believe that the false teaching that when you die, you go right to Heaven influences many to try to speed that process up....

When a believer dies their soul goes immediately to heaven. That is not false teaching because that is what the bible teaches us. It is false teaching if a person doesn't believe the soul of a believer does not immediately go to heaven. That is soul sleep. 

[Tammy Roesch]

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

When a believer dies their soul goes immediately to heaven. That is not false teaching because that is what the bible teaches us. It is false teaching if a person doesn't believe the soul of a believer does not immediately go to heaven. That is soul sleep. 

Hopefully this isn't one of those subjects I'm not allowed to talk about here....

But MissMuffet, there are a couple points to consider :).  When Jesus resurrected after being dead in the grave for 3 days, remember He said to Mary, "Don't touch Me" because He said He had not yet ascended to His Father.  He was just SLEEPING in the grave, waiting for the resurrection....which is what all the Saints will do when they die.

Think about this... If when you died, you went right to Heaven...then what is the point of having a JUDGMENT...because the Judgment is where we will all receive the REWARD of LIFE or DEATH....If you are already IN HEAVEN, then you already HAVE your Reward...it's a little backwards....do you see what I mean?

Also, what is the point of a RESURRECTION, if everyone is ALREADY in Heaven?

 

[Sower]

5 hours ago, Tammy Roesch said:

 

This is not an easy subject to think about, let alone write about.  But nonetheless, I believe it is a subject that all should think about, as there is hardly a one of us, myself included, who has not been tragically touched by the suicide of a family member or a friend, and perhaps there are even some now who are considering taking their own life, who will reconsider after reading this post...

What prompted me to write this is that I just read a blog on a Christian forum where the author was discussing this subject, and concluded that those who commit suicide could very well be saved.

Here are some statistics on suicide:

·      Suicide is the 10^th leading cause of death in the US

·      Each year 42,773 Americans die by suicide

·      For every suicide 25 attempt suicide

·      Suicide costs the US $44 Billion annually   
http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

The dictionary definition of MURDER is: “the crime of deliberately killing a person”.

The dictionary definition of SUICIDE is: “the act of killing yourself”

The ONLY difference between MURDER and SUICIDE is whether a person kills another person or kills themselves. SUICIDE is MURDER of oneself. 

What does the Bible say about those who MURDER?  

 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

There is no resurrection from “the second death.” No one, for whatever their sins might be, who ends up in the “lake of fire” will ever be taken to Heaven. No, I don’t believe the Bible teaches that people will “burn forever”.  Thankfully, we don’t serve a God like that.   

It’s not a happy thought, it’s not something that those of us who have lost a loved one to suicide wants to think, but it is the TRUTH, and it’s far better to know the TRUTH than to believe a LIE.  And look at it from another angle…. If people actually believe that they will be saved if/when they commit suicide, do you think that that thought would encourage or discourage more suicides?  I have no doubt, it would encourage people who are already discouraged and considering suicide. That is EXACTLY what the DEVIL wants, is for more people to give up and commit suicide, because he knows that when they do that, they are eternally lost.  

Suicide is on the rise, and I believe it will continue to rise as this old world continues its downward spiral.  I believe that having a REAL relationship with God, and knowing Jesus Christ as your Savior FROM sin is the ONLY ANSWER there is for many of the complex problems that people are facing today, that is causing so many to take their own lives. 

If you need someone to talk to, send a message, I’ll pray for you and help you any way I can. Jesus is coming soon, don’t give up the fight!

Suicide is a waste of life, for sure.  We shouldn't maneuver scripture to prove a point, though. 
You say it is murder, Tammy.
What is murder? Have you ever been upset with someone? Come to the point of hating them, but later confessed your error?
If  you born again, believing in the Christs Jesus, do you know/believe you have been forgiven all your sins. All, past present future.
So, do you believe a murderer can later come to a saving understanding of scripture and be saved? Forgiven?
Have you committed murder in your heart? I admit, I have. Has that sin, will that sin be forgiven. Did Jesus die for all our sins?
Do you believe you are going to heaven, or in your mind/belief, can you do something, a sin, a biggie one, and lose your salvation?
Your answers can help me understand your statements in your post.
Thank you for your post/discussion.

[Tammy Roesch]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

This is the biblical answer to soul sleep:

“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). As can be clearly seen in Luke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include the Seventh Day Adventist church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, and others.

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

RECOMMENDED RESOURCES

 

We might not see eye to eye, Miss Muffett, but I appreciate the discussion...

I believe the Bible means what it says when it says "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything." Ecclesiastes 9:5.  Why, cause they are JUST SLEEPING.  Remember when Jesus went to Bethany to raise Lazarus who had been dead for 3 days?  Lazarus had been dead for 3 days...he would have had a real story to tell of where he had gone and who he had seen, if that was what happened.  But nothing of the sort happened.  He was just sleeping, waiting for Jesus to raise him from the dead. 
 

If the common understanding is correct, that when people die they go to Heaven...then they DO KNOW THINGS and Ecclesiastes 9:5 is wrong.  They would see all the horrible things that happen to their loves ones who are still on EARTH. How depressing that would be.  It wouldn't make Heaven a happy place.  

[missmuffet]

11 minutes ago, Tammy Roesch said:

We might not see eye to eye, Miss Muffett, but I appreciate the discussion...

I believe the Bible means what it says when it says "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything." Ecclesiastes 9:5.  Why, cause they are JUST SLEEPING.  Remember when Jesus went to Bethany to raise Lazarus who had been dead for 3 days?  Lazarus had been dead for 3 days...he would have had a real story to tell of where he had gone and who he had seen, if that was what happened.  But nothing of the sort happened.  He was just sleeping, waiting for Jesus to raise him from the dead. 
 

If the common understanding is correct, that when people die they go to Heaven...then they DO KNOW THINGS and Ecclesiastes 9:5 is wrong.  They would see all the horrible things that happen to their loves ones who are still on EARTH. How depressing that would be.  It wouldn't make Heaven a happy place.  

You are not interpreting Ecclesiastes 9:5 correctly.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 reads, “For the living know that they will die, / but the dead know nothing; / they have no further reward, / and even their name is forgotten.” This verse is sometimes used as a proof text for annihilationism, but that concept is not what is being communicated here. The “dead know nothing,” but in what way?

First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.

In fact, Luke 16:19–31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.

Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.

The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).

When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

https://www.gotquestions.org/dead-know-nothing.html

You need to be careful not to post false teaching on Worthy. There are new christians on Worthy and we do not want to allow them to stumble and fall. God does not like that at all.
 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by missmuffet

[Tammy Roesch]

4 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Since soul sleep is false teaching I would not defend it if I were you. There are new christians on Worthy and we do not want to allow them to stumble and fall with false teaching. God does not like that at all. 

I'm sorry...If no one wants to discuss the topic, that is fine...the topic here was SUICIDE anyways.  I'm happy to stick with that topic.  But if anyone wants to discuss what happens when a person dies, I'm happy to do that, too.

I'm a firm believer that the TRUTH can stand to be examined...and if we stand with the TRUTH, we have nothing to fear. I sure don't know everything and there is much I cannot explain...but I'm happy to study what happens when a person dies as I believe the Bible is very clear.

[Alive]

3 hours ago, Tammy Roesch said:

Think about this... If when you died, you went right to Heaven...then what is the point of having a JUDGMENT...because the Judgment is where we will all receive the REWARD of LIFE or DEATH....If you are already IN HEAVEN, then you already HAVE your Reward...it's a little backwards....do you see what I mean?

There are a couple of things here that are subject to confusion.

1. Those that are born from above and 'In Christ' or put another way---saved; are already alive, already safe in Christ in heaven and in zero danger of a reward of death, as has been suggested.

These things are clear as a bell in many scriptures and most everyone here at the forum are aware of them. Bad teaching can sometimes be subtle and not readily seen by everyone immediately.

Col. 3:1 (NAS20S)   Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.   Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. ³ For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ⁴ When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

These 4 verses show us a few things; we have been past tense 'raised with Christ, our life is hidden with Christ in God, Christ IS our life and what happens to us who are 'In Him' is revealed--we will also be revealed with Him in glory.

The following scriptures are speaking more of these things mentioned above. Not the past tense.

Rom. 8:18 (NAS20S)   For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. ¹⁹ For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God.

Rom. 8:28 (NAS20S)   And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. ²⁹ For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; ³⁰ and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Rom. 8:31 (NAS20S)    What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? ³² He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

The Gospel--the Good News--is a reality. We died 'In Christ' on the Cross and were raised also 'In Him' in New Life and then also ascended 'In Him'. For those that are 'In Christ of the Father', the history of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension became our history. We were In Him and remain In Him.

Eph. 1:3 (NAS20S)    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, ⁴ just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love   He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,   to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved.

John 6:54 (NAS20S) “The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 1:11 (NAS20S) He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. ¹² But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name,     who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

Eph. 1:13 (NAS20S) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

 

                    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

--------And much, much more. There is zero chance of judgement leading to death for those that are Redeemed.

[SisterWells]

12 hours ago, Tammy Roesch said:

Yes, I agree with you...I also believe that the false teaching that when you die, you go right to Heaven influences many to try to speed that process up....

Have you ever struggled with depression, Tammy? Some people are filled with such utter despair and hopelessness wanting nothing more than to escape the pain they're in. Have you read any studies or statistics that lead you to believe that many are influenced to commit suicide because of the idea of Heaven? I would argue that  a suicidal individual desperately wants to flee the torturous place they're in without taking into consideration where they might end up.  Perhaps some who have been suicidal might be able to  confirm or deny this 

[Alive]

I post this scripture for encouragement:

1Cor. 10:13 (NAS20S) No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.