Was There More to Christ's Sufferings?

[Rukkus]

Halifax Christian said . . .

Jesus did not die Spiritually.

Well, like I say in the thread, you have to define what you mean "spiritually dead" I've heard alot of Christians say that if you have sin, you're spiritually dead . . . So that would mean Jesus died spiritually on the cross because he had all of our sins placed on Him and in Him. Others say spiritual death is seperation from God . . . In that case, Jesus died spiritually because God forsook Him.

He was forsaken by God unto death on the cross. The supernatural protection from death that Jesus experienced from a child was abandoned so that He could taste death for every man.

Alright . . . I don't necessarily disagree with that . . . Although it'd be nice to hear more scripture for that position.

Jesus did not say, "My Father, My Father...", He said, "My God, My God"...which was the language of the common man.

Well . . . Jesus called God "Father" and "God" in different instances of the gospels . . .

Jesus even said that all of the disciples that day would forsake Him but that even still the Father would be with Him.

"Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be SCATTERED, every man to his own, and shall LEAVE ME ALONE: and yet I AM NOT ALONE, BECAUSE THE FATHER IS WITH ME."-John 16:32

Right . . . I quote that verse in what I said . . . There is one slight thing you missed Jesus said that the Father "Is with me" not that He would "always be with me" and obviously, He wasn't, because God at one point forsook Jesus.

The context of psalm 22:1 clearly does not support a spiritual abandonment. It reads:

"My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken Me? Why art Thou so far from HELPING ME, and from hearing the VOICE OF MY ROARING?"

Well . . . I'm not sure what you mean by spiritual abandonement . . . All I know is that God forsook Jesus . . . This is what the scriptures say . . .

[halifaxchristian]

Jesus became sin by becoming a man, as Hebrews clearly outlines.

[halifaxchristian]

Halifax Christian said . . .

Jesus did not die Spiritually.

[Guest trow45]

I believe Mr. Longfellow said it best~

"I have had six faithful manservents in my life, always able to accomplish what I like...

and their names are Who, What, Why, Where, When and How..."

Faith is defined by Webster as "the belief in the 'value'. 'truth', or 'trustworthiness' of someone or something...."

Belief is defined by Webster as "something trusted or belived, a creed or set of axioms by which one makes moral and ethical decisions"

While I understand your question, (might as well discuss Matt. 27:53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus

Edited August 28, 2005 by trow45

[yomotalking]

The first post was absolutely excellent, and I agree that Jesus did not die spiritually.

[Rukkus]

Alrighty . . . Well

[Rukkus]

Remember that Jesus was both God and Man. The Lord Jesus Christ was Spirit, I agree. But the Lord Jesus Christ was Man also, of which you would surely agree. Thus the terms...Son of Man and Son of God. We must rightly divide Scripture my friend. You say...where does the Bible say that He only bore our sins in His body? Over and over and over again, as I will show you. The question I have for you is: Where does the Bible say that He bore our sins in His Spirit?

I don't think He bore our sins in His Spirit, I think that Jesus Himself became sin itself, because this is what the Word says (2Cor 5:21)

Read these verses:

"The BLOOD (physical) of Christ, through the ETERNAL SPIRIT (spiritual), offered Himself WITHOUT SPOT (spiritually) to God."-Hebrews 9:14

"...(Jesus) made Himself of NO REPUTATION, and took upon Him the FORM OF A SERVANT, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: and being found in FASHION AS A MAN, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, EVEN DEATH OF THE CROSS (physical)."-Phillippians 2:7,8

"...Christ...being put to DEATH IN THE FLESH, but QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT."-1 Peter 3:18

There are many more I can add if you like.

Well . . . My question was where does the Bible say Jesus only bore out sins in His body . . . So which one of these scriptures say that? These all indicate he was crucified phyiscally . . . But where do they say Jesus only bore our sins in His body?

Jesus Christ was not a sinner on the cross...if He had have been...that sacrifice would have meant absolutely nothing.

Well . . . Sinner means to be full of sins, and according to 1Pt 2:24 that's what happened to Jesus while on the cross . . . His flesh became full of our sins . . . And if it was His flesh that became a sinner, we could say he did, because the Bible says in Jn 1:14 that the Word became flesh. So that verse calls Jesus flesh. (now I don't think he is only flesh of course, but as with man, his flesh is part of who he is)

We are not redeemed by the blood of a sinner...but by the blood of a SPIRITUALLY SPOTLESS LAMB.

I agree . . . . I don't know about the (spiritually spotless) part because I don't know what you mean. But at the same time . . . Jesus did bear our sins in His own body . . . If you don't want to use the terminology "sinner" that's fine . . . But it means the same thing . . . Someone filled with sin . . .

God bless you in seeking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Rukkus]

I believe Mr. Longfellow said it best~

"I have had six faithful manservents in my life, always able to accomplish what I like...

and their names are Who, What, Why, Where, When and How..."

Faith is defined by Webster as "the belief in the 'value'. 'truth', or 'trustworthiness' of someone or something...."

Belief is defined by Webster as "something trusted or belived, a creed or set of axioms by which one makes moral and ethical decisions"

While I understand your question, (might as well discuss  Matt. 27:53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus

[halifaxchristian]

Your words are bolded.

I don't think He bore our sins in His Spirit, I think that Jesus Himself became sin itself, because this is what the Word says (2Cor 5:21)

You say that you don't believe Jesus bore His sins in His Spirit??? Then what is the point of this whole debate? You contradict yourself. I believe that Jesus became sin itself also and I agree with what the Word says. Only...we differ in our interpretations. My interpretation is in harmony with the whole of Scripture...yours is not.

Well . . . My question was where does the Bible say Jesus only bore out sins in His body . . . So which one of these scriptures say that? These all indicate he was crucified phyiscally . . . But where do they say Jesus only bore our sins in His body?

Exactly my point...those verses show that Jesus died physically, yet was quickened by the Spirit. James says that sin when it is finished bringeth forth death. If Jesus' Spirit became sin...Jesus would have to have died Spiritually. If Jesus' Spirit did not become sin...He would not have had to died Spiritually. Show me a Scripture where it says specifically that Jesus died Spiritually and I will present additional verses to support my case. The truth is...you have no verses to prove your theory so you are merely pointing the fingers at me. The Word clearly says that Jesus bore our sins in His body...even you agree to that. Please show me a verse that supports your theory and we will continue this discussion. Until then...consider your doctrine lacking.

Well . . . Sinner means to be full of sins, and according to 1Pt 2:24 that's what happened to Jesus while on the cross . . . His flesh became full of our sins . . . And if it was His flesh that became a sinner, we could say he did, because the Bible says in Jn 1:14 that the Word became flesh. So that verse calls Jesus flesh. (now I don't think he is only flesh of course, but as with man, his flesh is part of who he is)

The Spirit of Christ did take on the sins of the world in His body. His flesh did become sin. But does this make Christ Jesus a sinner? Absolutely NO! In fact, Jesus' Christ's Spirit dwells in each and every believer today, in our flesh, so are you saying that Jesus Christ is a sinner because of "Christ in you"? You are failing to divide the Word in a Biblical fashion and are stumbling at the letter. Remember that Jesus becoming flesh does not mean what you think it does. Jesus' Spirit wasn't literally turned into flesh...the Spirit of Christ dwelt inside of that flesh...which is different than you insinuate. God was MANIFIEST in the flesh. To say that the Spirit of Christ and the flesh of Christ were one and the same is heresy. Would you say that of yourself even??? Surely not.

I agree . . . . I don't know about the (spiritually spotless) part because I don't know what you mean. But at the same time . . . Jesus did bear our sins in His own body . . . If you don't want to use the terminology "sinner" that's fine . . . But it means the same thing . . . Someone filled with sin . . .

By the "spiritually spotless part"...I mean that Jesus never died spiritually nor took on the sins of the world in His Spirit...and neither can you nor anyone else prove this or show this from Scripture. You can interpret certain Scriptures in this light, being ignorant of the whole of the Word, but we must show ourselves workmen rightly diving the Word of Truth. To say that Jesus died spiritually is heresy. Jesus was not a sinner and I don't know how you can even let those words come out of your mouth without cringing and then repenting soon after. And Jesus was filled with sin bodily...but this fails to make Him a sinner. A sinner is one guilty of an act. In act, Jesus never sinned...which would have been made void had Jesus' Spirit not been pure at all times.

Because you have defiled the temple of the Holy Ghost (as we all have)...does this make Christ a sinner???

God bless you in seeking.

[halifaxchristian]

Rukkus...remember that the flesh profits nothing. The fallen flesh we all have today is not what makes us sinners...it is the stain on our spirits that makes us sinners. All of us are born sinners without having even committed any sins. Why? Not because of our flesh...but because of our spirits. That is why Jesus Christ was born of a virgin...because God was incapable of having a sin-stained Spirit.

Fallen flesh is the RESULT of sin...it is not what CONSTITUTES us sinners.

God bless you.