Is belief in the Trinity essential to one's Salvat

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

Didn't God made everything 'plain' to know Him?

Didn't God send Jesus so He could introduce to us who the ONLY true God is?

No and no

Did He claim He is the true God?

Yes

So, do you mean that Jesus is the Father?

"Father" and "Son" are different persons within the Trinity.

Can you cite the verse, please?

Matthew 9:2-5

Can you cite the verse, please?

We are told to worship God alone in the 10 Commandments. Jesus received worship.

Well, I worship Jesus, not because He is God Himself... We should worship no other Gods, but the true God alone.

The ONLY true God according to Jesus Himself is the Father. so why worship Jesus?

Because it is a COMMANDMENT of God: To worship Jesus is to glorify the Father.

Then God violates His own commandment. Denying the deity of Jesus is to deny salvation.

A man-god... what a pagan concept.

Does God want it to be that way? I don't think so.

Actually, this is false. The idea that Jesus couldn't be God because He was a man comes from the paganistic Gnostic sect of Greek thinking. Nice try though! Don't even try to debate me on this point, you have no chance

Basically, you're a Gnostic heretic. Congrats

WOW condeming presumptus judging name calling, a true reflection of UnChristian conduct. Really it speaks vollumes of your spirtule maturity...........

[apothanein kerdos]

Didn't God made everything 'plain' to know Him?

Didn't God send Jesus so He could introduce to us who the ONLY true God is?

No and no

Did He claim He is the true God?

Yes

So, do you mean that Jesus is the Father?

"Father" and "Son" are different persons within the Trinity.

Can you cite the verse, please?

Matthew 9:2-5

Can you cite the verse, please?

We are told to worship God alone in the 10 Commandments. Jesus received worship.

Well, I worship Jesus, not because He is God Himself... We should worship no other Gods, but the true God alone.

The ONLY true God according to Jesus Himself is the Father. so why worship Jesus?

Because it is a COMMANDMENT of God: To worship Jesus is to glorify the Father.

Then God violates His own commandment. Denying the deity of Jesus is to deny salvation.

A man-god... what a pagan concept.

Does God want it to be that way? I don't think so.

Actually, this is false. The idea that Jesus couldn't be God because He was a man comes from the paganistic Gnostic sect of Greek thinking. Nice try though! Don't even try to debate me on this point, you have no chance

Basically, you're a Gnostic heretic. Congrats

WOW condeming presumptus judging name calling, a true reflection of UnChristian conduct. Really it speaks vollumes of your spirtule maturity...........

Whatever you want to believe, I could care less

I call things for what they are. The early church fathers, including John (you know, the guy who wrote five books in the New Testament) called one of these Gnostics the son of Satan....so I don't feel too bad calling this guy for what he is (a heretic). Before commenting on the issue, study it. Basically, a person CANNOT BE SAVED if they deny the deity of Jesus...it's as simple as that. I don't care if you label me as a "judger" or a "condemner." I'd rather speak the truth and be right, than be politically correct and post-modern and be wrong.

[EricH]

Cool the rhetoric gang

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

Didn't God made everything 'plain' to know Him?

Didn't God send Jesus so He could introduce to us who the ONLY true God is?

No and no

Did He claim He is the true God?

Yes

So, do you mean that Jesus is the Father?

"Father" and "Son" are different persons within the Trinity.

Can you cite the verse, please?

Matthew 9:2-5

Can you cite the verse, please?

We are told to worship God alone in the 10 Commandments. Jesus received worship.

Well, I worship Jesus, not because He is God Himself... We should worship no other Gods, but the true God alone.

The ONLY true God according to Jesus Himself is the Father. so why worship Jesus?

Because it is a COMMANDMENT of God: To worship Jesus is to glorify the Father.

Then God violates His own commandment. Denying the deity of Jesus is to deny salvation.

A man-god... what a pagan concept.

Does God want it to be that way? I don't think so.

Actually, this is false. The idea that Jesus couldn't be God because He was a man comes from the paganistic Gnostic sect of Greek thinking. Nice try though! Don't even try to debate me on this point, you have no chance

Basically, you're a Gnostic heretic. Congrats

WOW condeming presumptus judging name calling, a true reflection of UnChristian conduct. Really it speaks vollumes of your spirtule maturity...........

Whatever you want to believe, I could care less

I call things for what they are. The early church fathers, including John (you know, the guy who wrote five books in the New Testament) called one of these Gnostics the son of Satan....so I don't feel too bad calling this guy for what he is (a heretic). Before commenting on the issue, study it. Basically, a person CANNOT BE SAVED if they deny the deity of Jesus...it's as simple as that. I don't care if you label me as a "judger" or a "condemner." I'd rather speak the truth and be right, than be politically correct and post-modern and be wrong.

Im sorry who died and made you God so as to be calling some one a heretic or perhaps you feel that your as inspired as the Apostle John so as to speak in behalf of God when pernouceing your Judgements agianst some one. you say that a person cannot be saved if they deny that Jesus is the Most High humm what scripture did you get that one out of perhaps the book of apothaneia kerdos. And I wish you would speak truth instead of your being so presumpus to say who can or can not be saved.

and Oh yea your right about one thing. it is pointless to debate with you I wont try it.

and unlike you I do care whether my brother or sister is believing correctly yes even you. its to bad you dont feel the same since clearly Jesus said that you would know his dicpeles by their love. well I guess you were not able to explain away John 20. 17 or John 17. 3 well thats ok.

any way Peace to you

[apothanein kerdos]

it is pointless to debate with you I wont try it.

No, if you have the guts to say something, you better have the same ammount to stay around and keep defending it. You don't hit someone and then run away.

Im sorry who died and made you God so as to be calling some one a heretic or perhaps you feel that your as inspired as the Apostle John so as to speak in behalf of God when pernouceing your Judgements agianst some one.

Whoa mate, calm down. There is a difference between arbitrary judgement and something that is decidedly heretical. If you get on here and say, "We can lose our salvation and give up our faith," whilst I'll disagree, it's certainly not heretical. Just like if I tell you that I speak in tongues and I think it's a sign of the Holy Spirit, we may end up disagreeing, but neither one of us hold a heretical stance. When someone says, "Jesus was just a man and was not God," we can say that is heretical and that the person is subsequently a heretic. We say this because, as I pointed out, John the Apostle, considered this heretical. In fact, the early church declared anyone that taught this/believed this a heretic. We view "heretic" as a dirty word, but the fact is, we need to apply it because it does hold truth in the modern world. We can look to early Christianity and see that church fathers believed this to be heresy. Either we agree with them, and call it out, or we brush aside two thousand years of belief in order to appease people.

you say that a person cannot be saved if they deny that Jesus is the Most High 39.gif humm what scripture did you get that one out of perhaps the book of apothaneia kerdos. And I wish you would speak truth instead of your being so presumpus to say who can or can not be saved.

The Bible gives standards for salvation. Am I being judgmental for saying a person that denies Christ will go to hell (even though this is found in Joyhn 14:6)? Of course not. Likewise, to deny the deity of Christ is to deny essentially who He is. It's the equivalent to saying, "God isn't really God." By taking away His deity we make Him a liar, for He claimed He was God. Salvation depends upon justification and sanctification. The only way to achieve both is to place our trust in Jesus Christ. We cannot do this unless we know who He is. This is why it is essential to salvation. It is like trying to accept Christ but denying He really died.

and unlike you I do care whether my brother or sister is believing correctly yes even you. its to bad you dont feel the same since clearly Jesus said that you would know his dicpeles by their love. well I guess you were not able to explain away John 20. 17 or John 17. 3 well thats ok.

"love" does not mean glossing things over.

[Unico]

Actually, this is false. The idea that Jesus couldn't be God because He was a man comes from the paganistic Gnostic sect of Greek thinking. Nice try though! Don't even try to debate me on this point, you have no chance

As you wish.

I'll take your word on that.

The questions I raised were not for you to answer anyway.

[EricH]

Please folks!! Keep your comments focused on the issues and not personalities. All people are worthy of respect regardless of whether we agree with them or not. If this gets any hotter we will have to close the thread

[apothanein kerdos]

Actually, this is false. The idea that Jesus couldn't be God because He was a man comes from the paganistic Gnostic sect of Greek thinking. Nice try though! Don't even try to debate me on this point, you have no chance

As you wish.

I'll take your word on that.

The questions I raised were not for you to answer anyway.

WEll it's an expression of mine mate

Truth be told you may have studied the issue. I only say it to say, "Hey, I've really studied this issue, read the workings, etc." What I'm curious about is how you can claim that Jesus being 100% God and 100% man is a pagan belief as I've yet to come across any beliefs at the time that taught this. To further this, the belief that Jesus was just a man and not God is of pagan influence and I can point to the Gnostic philosophies of that time, the cult of the Tammuz, etc.

[Smalcald]

I am flabbergasted that people would claim to be Christian and not worship Christ. How could we ask anything in His name as He commanded us to do in prayer? Christ was crucified for blaspheme, for making Himself equal to God, which is blaspheme, if it were not true. When asked by those crucifying Him if He was the Son of God, He replied Yes, and indeed He did very clearly say that if you have seen Me you have seen the father, and yes Jesus=Father they are one being and yet separate.

If people can't accept that because of their human mindset and refusal to believe the mystery of God, and things as Paul stated that is far beyond our understanding, then it is doubtful as Christ said that they can accept anything else, none of which we can fully understand either.

I agree we need to be civil, but this is very very basic, if we cannot accept the divinity of Christ we have two choices, we are not Christians, or we are pantheists worshipping two Gods. Muslims accept that Christ ascended into heaven was born a virgin, but not His true divinity and equality with God. Essentially if you don

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

it is pointless to debate with you I wont try it.

No, if you have the guts to say something, you better have the same amount to stay around and keep defending it. You don't hit someone and then run away.

Im sorry who died and made you God so as to be calling some one a heretic or perhaps you feel that your as inspired as the Apostle John so as to speak in behalf of God when pernouceing your Judgements agianst some one.

Whoa mate, calm down. There is a difference between arbitrary judgement and something that is decidedly heretical. If you get on here and say, "We can lose our salvation and give up our faith," whilst I'll disagree, it's certainly not heretical. Just like if I tell you that I speak in tongues and I think it's a sign of the Holy Spirit, we may end up disagreeing, but neither one of us hold a heretical stance. When someone says, "Jesus was just a man and was not God," we can say that is heretical and that the person is subsequently a heretic. We say this because, as I pointed out, John the Apostle, considered this heretical. In fact, the early church declared anyone that taught this/believed this a heretic. We view "heretic" as a dirty word, but the fact is, we need to apply it because it does hold truth in the modern world. We can look to early Christianity and see that church fathers believed this to be heresy. Either we agree with them, and call it out, or we brush aside two thousand years of belief in order to appease people.

you say that a person cannot be saved if they deny that Jesus is the Most High 39.gif humm what scripture did you get that one out of perhaps the book of apothaneia kerdos. And I wish you would speak truth instead of your being so presumpus to say who can or can not be saved.

The Bible gives standards for salvation. Am I being judgmental for saying a person that denies Christ will go to hell (even though this is found in Joyhn 14:6)? Of course not. Likewise, to deny the deity of Christ is to deny essentially who He is. It's the equivalent to saying, "God isn't really God." By taking away His deity we make Him a liar, for He claimed He was God. Salvation depends upon justification and sanctification. The only way to achieve both is to place our trust in Jesus Christ. We cannot do this unless we know who He is. This is why it is essential to salvation. It is like trying to accept Christ but denying He really died.

and unlike you I do care whether my brother or sister is believing correctly yes even you. its to bad you dont feel the same since clearly Jesus said that you would know his dicpeles by their love. well I guess you were not able to explain away John 20. 17 or John 17. 3 well thats ok.

"love" does not mean glossing things over.

First off Bro this has nothing to do with gutts, the reason I wont debate with you is because you are looking for an argument and my purpose is to show why it is I do not believe that the belief in the Trinity is necssary for salvation and to learn to see maybe my understanding is mistaken. But I agree with EricH mutuel respect is needed, but you crossed that line when you call some one a hieratic for giving their reasons for disagreeing and then saying they will go to hell.

Secondly John 14. 6 Says nothing about a person salvation due to a required belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. It does however state that we can only come to the Father through the Son. Which I believe and so does the person you judged being a gnostic hieratic. Consider please Jesus, Warning with the judgment you are judging you will be judged.

Thirdly Bro really if when you post you post with out love it is invain that you posted at all. If you feel someone is wrong take a stand for what you believe to be true but do it with respect so as to reach people and not to repel people. Unless you think you will reach people by telling them that they Heretics that are going to hell. Think about it !!!

at any rate may God be with you.