Why waste the energy?

[SpiritLedEd]

Putting mary in Jesus's position, The mediator and intercessor for us to the

Father, is idolatry. Putting Mary, whom i do respect, as she was a blessed and obediant lady, putting her on a pedestal like that basically turns her into a godlern calf. How can they do that to her?! How can they do that to the Father? Im not angry, im sorrowful that it has been made this way, without scriptural evidence that it is right.

[SpiritLedEd]

Putting mary in Jesus's position, The mediator and intercessor for us to the

Father, is idolatry. Putting Mary, whom i do respect, as she was a blessed and obediant lady, putting her on a pedestal like that basically turns her into a godlern calf. How can they do that to her?! How can they do that to the Father? Im not angry, im sorrowful that it has been made this way, without scriptural evidence that it is right.

[HisWordIsSufficient]

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Do you not believe in life after death, bluebird?

Please show me Scripture references to prove there is no life after death.

Thanks,

Fiosh

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Of course i believe in life after death, eternal life is a huge part of salvation! But i dont believe people go directly to heaven immediately. Were all judged on the same day arent we??

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[Fiosh]

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Do you not believe in life after death, bluebird?

Please show me Scripture references to prove there is no life after death.

Thanks,

Fiosh

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Of course i believe in life after death, eternal life is a huge part of salvation! But i dont believe people go directly to heaven immediately. Were all judged on the same day arent we??

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Dear Bluebird--- Did not The good thief go directly into paradise?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

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[SpiritLedEd]

Putting mary in Jesus's position, The mediator and intercessor for us to the

Father, is idolatry. Putting Mary, whom i do respect, as she was a blessed and obediant lady, putting her on a pedestal like that basically turns her into a godlern calf. How can they do that to her?! How can they do that to the Father? Im not angry, im sorrowful that it has been made this way, without scriptural evidence that it is right.

[Fiosh]

SpirtledEd said:

"Regarding the idea that Mary was a life-long virgin, your citations from the Gospel of Mark blow that right out of the water, in my opinion. Some people teach that the "brothers and sisters" in Mark 3 are, in fact, disciples. That cannot be true either because, beginning with verse 20, Mark tells of Jesus entering a house and there was a huge crowd there to see and hear Him and (v21), "When His family heard of this, they went to take charge of Him, for they said 'He is out of His mind'." How could they be disciples, when they were in unbelief and trying to drag Him away from that meeting? They really were only His siblings.

You mentioned Moses earlier in your post. In MT 17, he appears with Elijah at the Transfiguration. There is also a phrase in Jude verse 9 that refers to the Arch-angel Micheal fighting with the devil over the body of Moses. Moses is definitely in Heaven body and soul.

SLE"

You are overlooking a few things.

Noone is disputing that the people mentioned in verse 21 are relatives. My Bible actually uses that very word. But it does not say they were brothers.

Secondly, the word for brothers or brethren is the same Greek word. It is used to mean "brother in Christ" or "close relative or friend" as well as actual blood brother.

So your explanation really proves nothing.

In fact, in verse33, Jesus Himself, calls those seated around Him, "my brothers".

***********************************************

regarding Moses and Mary.

Common sense tells me that if God saw fit to take Moses bodily into heaven, there's a good chance He did the same for the woman who bore the Saviour in her womb.

God bless,

F

[Guest Carico]

SpirtledEd said:

"Regarding the idea that Mary was a life-long virgin, your citations from the Gospel of Mark blow that right out of the water, in my opinion. Some people teach that the "brothers and sisters" in Mark 3 are, in fact, disciples. That cannot be true either because, beginning with verse 20, Mark tells of Jesus entering a house and there was a huge crowd there to see and hear Him and (v21), "When His family heard of this, they went to take charge of Him, for they said 'He is out of His mind'." How could they be disciples, when they were in unbelief and trying to drag Him away from that meeting? They really were only His siblings.

You mentioned Moses earlier in your post. In MT 17, he appears with Elijah at the Transfiguration. There is also a phrase in Jude verse 9 that refers to the Arch-angel Micheal fighting with the devil over the body of Moses. Moses is definitely in Heaven body and soul.

SLE"

You are overlooking a few things. 

Noone is disputing that the people mentioned in verse 21 are relatives.  My Bible actually uses that very word.  But it does not say they were brothers.

Secondly, the word for brothers or brethren is the same Greek word.  It is used to mean "brother in Christ" or "close relative or friend" as well as actual blood brother.

So your explanation really proves nothing.

In fact, in verse33, Jesus Himself, calls those seated around Him, "my brothers".

***********************************************

regarding Moses and Mary.

Common sense tells me that if God saw fit to take Moses bodily into heaven, there's a good chance He did the same for the woman who bore the Saviour in her womb.

God bless,

F

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Sorry, but if the diciples meant Christ's brothers as a family of believers or close friends, then Jesus wouldn't have had to explain to them who his real brothers, sisters and mother are. But he did. Therefore, the word "brothers" in that passage clearly meant Christ's biological brothers. And the only reason this is even discussed is because the catholic church has simply decided that Mary was a virgin all of ther life. If they have never done that, then no one would have ever tried to redefine brothers. But this is how adherence to human beings as the word of God instead of the bible alone can lead people astray.

[Fiosh]

SpirtledEd said:

"Regarding the idea that Mary was a life-long virgin, your citations from the Gospel of Mark blow that right out of the water, in my opinion. Some people teach that the "brothers and sisters" in Mark 3 are, in fact, disciples. That cannot be true either because, beginning with verse 20, Mark tells of Jesus entering a house and there was a huge crowd there to see and hear Him and (v21), "When His family heard of this, they went to take charge of Him, for they said 'He is out of His mind'." How could they be disciples, when they were in unbelief and trying to drag Him away from that meeting? They really were only His siblings.

You mentioned Moses earlier in your post. In MT 17, he appears with Elijah at the Transfiguration. There is also a phrase in Jude verse 9 that refers to the Arch-angel Micheal fighting with the devil over the body of Moses. Moses is definitely in Heaven body and soul.

SLE"

You are overlooking a few things.

[Fiosh]

Mark 6:3 - Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Actually Fiosh, when I opend my greek concordiance, this is what I get.

"brother"

adelphos

brother(lit. or fig.)

denotes a brother or near kinsman

(1) male children of the same parents.

(2) male descendants of the same parents.

(3) male children of the same mother "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?"

Other definitions list people of the same nationality, etc.

However as with any word, look at the context.

Mark 6:3 - Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Is not this the carpenter,

First, they identify Jesus by his trade, and really that of his earthly father Joseph.

the son of Mary

Then they identify his mother. So we are talking about a biological family unit.

the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon?

Now they identify his brothers

and are not his sisters here with us?

and his sisters.

Now if you think these are references to "countrymen", etc. Then this statement would be meaningless, because EVERYONE present at this event was Jesus' countrymen. Imagine if I came up to someone in front of Pennsylvania avenue and said, "Hey, the Americans are here to see you," and they were already talking to a large crowd of Americans.I'd look pretty stupid, as nearly everyone in sight would be an American.

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I believe it refers to Jesus' "near kinsmen".

OR

Some say that it is possible that Joseph was an older man and had children from a previous marriage.

Whichever, the passage does not prove that Mary was not a virgin.

As for your illustration.........it would be more like standing on PA Avenue and saying, "Hey, Denise, your mom and all your relatives are here to see you".

Something to think about. When Jesus was dying in agony on the cross---His mom was there.

Where were His brothers and sisters?????

If it were my brother, even if I thought He was insane, I would have been there.

[Fiosh]

Mark 6:3 - Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Actually Fiosh, when I opend my greek concordiance, this is what I get.

"brother"

adelphos

brother(lit. or fig.)

denotes a brother or near kinsman

(1) male children of the same parents.

(2) male descendants of the same parents.

(3) male children of the same mother "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?"

Other definitions list people of the same nationality, etc.

However as with any word, look at the context.

Mark 6:3 - Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Is not this the carpenter,

First, they identify Jesus by his trade, and really that of his earthly father Joseph.

the son of Mary

Then they identify his mother. So we are talking about a biological family unit.

the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon?

Now they identify his brothers

and are not his sisters here with us?

and his sisters.

Now if you think these are references to "countrymen", etc. Then this statement would be meaningless, because EVERYONE present at this event was Jesus' countrymen. Imagine if I came up to someone in front of Pennsylvania avenue and said, "Hey, the Americans are here to see you," and they were already talking to a large crowd of Americans.I'd look pretty stupid, as nearly everyone in sight would be an American.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it refers to Jesus' "near kinsmen".

OR

Some say that it is possible that Joseph was an older man and had children from a previous marriage.

Whichever, the passage does not prove that Mary was not a virgin.

As for your illustration.........it would be more like standing on PA Avenue and saying, "Hey, Denise, your mom and all your relatives are here to see you".

Something to think about. When Jesus was dying in agony on the cross---His mom was there.

Where were His brothers and sisters?????

If it were my brother, even if I thought He was insane, I would have been there.

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Sorry, Wade, I just called you "Denise". Forgot who I was arguing with.

Duh!