Last Day Resurrection? How does that work?

[Uriah]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

WHY WOULD WE THINK HE WON'T DO THE SAME WHEN HE RETURNS "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY" AT HIS SECOND ADVENT?

HE WILL! But there is also difference. Perhaps you are missing my point. All those who were raised from death in the O.T./N.T had to die again. This seems to be why it never uses the word "resurrection" for them. But It does work the other way. Resurrected people are said to be raised in the future.

Those raised on earth so far were raised by another person. Jesus was NOT, He was resurrected by God the Father himself. Yes, it will be Preeminent, Jesus' resurrection was also. 

But what we see in Rev. 20 is people who have been raised the same way as Jesus, and are like him. In Gal 6 He is called a "new creature". Like a way of saying a new species! This cannot be said about anyone who was raised and died again here on Earth. 

So I defend the idea of the preeminence AND order from cheapening their status by words that are similar and can be used alternately to make unlimited resurrections etc.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Umm... Sorry, but the "sheep and the goats" is a judgment on NATIONS.

The nations are made up of people! And the ones at Armageddon will DIE. Therefore we see picture two groups -from all nations. Those who are sent to the place prepared for them in the joy of the Lord/ those cast into fire. The resurrection of life/damnation.

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, yet, both Yeshua` (our Lord) in John 11:11 and 13 above, Matthew 9:34, and Luke 8:52 and Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, and 51, and in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 5:10 gave us the word "sleep" for the temporary death in the Messiah. The word was used for Stephen's death in Acts 7:60, and Paul again used the word in Acts 13:36 for David's death.

To be "present with the Lord" first requires "the Lord to be present." It's an expression that shows how quickly being asleep will pass. We close our eyes in death, and the next thing we know is that we are opening our eyes in His presence! However, there's no promise of "going to heaven when one dies." Instead, we are given the promise:

Ahh, you get my point, "sleep: is a euphemism. And I rely on Jesus' words about being "passed" to life as revealing the aspect of time(lessness) at death for believers.

God (will) bless you! 

[Retrobyter]

On 9/13/2021 at 7:26 AM, Kelly2363 said:

Shalom Retrobyter

That was an open and refreshing response brother. I'll be open with you also. I was looking forward to your reply because I have been reading your posts for more than a year now. That, mundanely put, has to do with your scheme of writing. I do like your transliteration approach - it works very well.  I can also sense that this approach in some way is reflective of your ministry. But I also wish to explore the prophetic sense you derived in your expiation that I quoted. I have studied Samuel for many years and his ministry forms a bridge between Judging and prophetic forth telling - whereas Judging would necessarily require a prophetic spirit also. That transition came about because Israel asked for a king. 

Shalom, @Kelly2363.

First, pardon me on the delays, please. I've been battling cancer (in God's providence), and have recently had a kidney (and its associated ureter) removed. God's grace for me is sufficient; I am, after all, a body of decay right now that is destined for mortality, if God doesn't intervene first through the return of His Son Yeshua`. God has blessed us with dedicated and insightful doctors who, equipped with amazingly advanced equipment, have been able to do things in this time period in which we live that minimize the recuperation of the human body and the pain which is normally associated with that recuperation. So, I am ... comfortable and recuperating from surgery. I've had the staples removed from the incision, although I'm still dragging around a Foley bag for another two weeks.

You "wish[ed] to explore the prophetic sense" I've "derived in" my "expiation." I'll be frank: I don't really know to what atonement ("expiation") you are referring, whether my own or that of people in general, but since you've mentioned Shmu'eel ("Samuel"), let's start there.

Shmu'eel was indeed a transition man between the judges and the kings, but why was he necessary? Let's go back to the first days of God bringing a people out of Egypt for Himself:

These people were LITERALLY the children (which included the grandchildren, the great grandchildren, etc.) of Avraham. Indeed, they were descendants of his son Yitschaq ("Isaac") and his grandson Ya`aqoV, later renamed to "Yisra'eel," who further defined the lineage. God heard the cries from these people when they were in bondage to a Pharoah who did not know Yowceef ("Joseph," Ex. 1:8), who came before him during the time of famine. God was allowing for the sins of the Amorites to come to their fill (Gen. 15:16). So, the time finally came when God would bring out His people from Egypt, and we read about this Exodus in the second book of the Torah, today simply called "Exodus."

At first, there were NO intermediaries planned between God and His people, and God spoke to them DIRECTLY:

Exodus 19:10-20:21 (KJV)

10 And the LORD said unto Moses,

"Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, 'Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death': 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount."

14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said unto the people,

"Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives."

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. 21 And the LORD said unto Moses,

"Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them."

23 And Moses said unto the LORD,

"The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, 'Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'"

24 And the LORD said unto him,

"Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them."

25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 "[1] Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 "[2] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 "[3] Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 "[4] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12"[5] Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 "[6] Thou shalt not kill.

14 "[7] Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 "[8] Thou shalt not steal.

16 "[9] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 "[10] Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses,

"Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die!"

20 And Moses said unto the people, "Fear not: for God is come to prove (test) you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not."

21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

So, they ASKED for Moses to be a go-between between themselves and YHWH God. YHWH God was their King and Moses was His emmissary. This arrangement passed on to each successive judge, starting with Yhowshuwa` ("Joshua")  who God would appoint for each generation in trouble, for we read ...

Judges 2:16-23 (KJV)

16 Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them. 17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so. 18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them. 19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way. 20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; 21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: 22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. 23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

So, we see a pattern develop: 

1. The children of Israel would forget YHWH their God and neglect to teach their children about Him. 

2. They would turn to other gods and anger their own God YHWH, and He would raise a people against them.

3. They would return to their God YHWH and cry out to Him for His mercy and help.

4. God would raise for them a judge, and with that judge, God would fight for them and deliver them from the people who rose against them.

5. Go back to 1.

It was said at the end of Judges,

Judges 21:25 (KJV)

25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

And, an old proverb says, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

This pattern was repeated at least 13 times throughout the book of Judges, and then came the priest `Eliy and his lecherous sons, and then Shmu'eel and his sons who did not follow in their father's ways. This was when the people demanded a king like other nations around them had.

God warned them about demanding a king, and what such a king would do to them:

1 Samuel 8:10-22 (KJV)

4Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, 5And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 6But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. 7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 9Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. 11 And he said,

"This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day!"

19 Nevertheless the people REFUSED to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said,

"Nay; but we will have a king over us; 20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles."

21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD. 22 And the LORD said to Samuel,

"Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king."

And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, "Go ye every man unto his city."

They got Sha'uwl for their first king. Although he was a fine specimen of a man, head and shoulders taller than anyone else, with a c0urage and humility beyond the norm, he was panicky and impulsive. While waiting for Shmu'eel to arrive, he panicked when he was late and "forced himself" to step in and perform a sacrifice that only a priest or a prophet of God could perform. (See 1 Samuel 13.) That was the FIRST mark against him.

Later, he incompletely "obeyed" YHWH God's order to eliminate Agag the king of the Amaaleeqiym and the animals of that people. His excuse was to save the animals for a sacrifice, and to parade the king.

1 Samuel 15:1-9 (KJV)

1 Samuel also said unto Saul,

"The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt (Exodus 17). 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley. 6 And Saul said unto the Kenites,

"Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt."

So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. 8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

Here's the reason why God wanted these people destroyed. In the long run, we read,

Esther 3:1-6 (KJV)

1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that werewith him. 2 And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence. 3 Then the king's servants, which were in the king's gate, said unto Mordecai,

"Why transgressest thou the king's commandment?"

4 Now it came to pass, when they spake daily unto him, and he hearkened not unto them, that they told Haman, to see whether Mordecai's matters would stand: for he had told them that he was a Jew. 5 And when Haman saw that Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence, then was Haman full of wrath. 6 And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had shewed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.

This man Haman was a DIRECT DESCENDANT of Agag the Amaaleeqiy! However it happened, by Sha'uwl not killing ALL the people of Amaaleeq right away, and sending the haqQeeniym ("the Kenites") away (which may have included some of the females and children of Amaaleeq) before they killed all the Amaaleeqiym, the ancestors of this Haman were allowed to survive and almost cost the Jews their lives during the reign of Achashverosh ("Ahasuerus"), king of Persia.

God sought Him out a man after His own heart (1 Sam. 13:14), and chose David to be His choice - His Mashiyach - for Israel's king. The fact that David was so anointed by Shmu'eel was hidden from Sha'uwl, but he had his suspicions about David's future role. So, for many years during his reign, Sha'uwl hunted David, attempting to thwart God's plan by physical violence against David. David, while he had some opportunities to kill Sha'uwl, he never laid a hand upon God's Anointed, for he recognized that, despite Sha'uwl's failures, he was still God's FIRST choice for Israel's king. (1 Sam. 24:6; 26:11, 16, 23.)

To David, God made a promise:

2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV)

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,  

5 "Go and tell my servant David, 

"'Thus saith the LORD, 

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?  6 Whereas I have not dwelt in [any] house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.  7 In all [the places] wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, 

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts, 

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [men] that [are] in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,  11 And as since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.  12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.  14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:  15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Many believe that this "seed" to which YHWH was referring was Shlomoh ("Solomon"), but it could NOT be, because David's "seed" would be established AFTER David would "sleep with his fathers," but Shlomoh began reigning BEFORE David was dead!

Now, fast forward to the visitation of Gavri'eel ("Gabriel") to Miryam ("Mary"):

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, 

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.  31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = Greek: Ieesous).  32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:  33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

So, Yeshua` (Yeeshuwa`) was the TRUE "seed" of David, the Mashiyach ("Messiah," "Christ") of God.

This is the start. Now, there are two things to remember:

First, Yeshua` never said that He was God. He always claimed to be at most the "Son of God." In fact, as the "Son of God," He frequently prayed to His Father, YHWH God.

Second, Christians tend to exaggerate the role of Yeshua` the Messiah, making Him out to be God, but He is the MEDIATOR between God and men! Indeed, He most often referred to Himself as the "Son of man."

I'll await your response at this point.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/13/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uriah said:

HE WILL! But there is also difference. Perhaps you are missing my point. All those who were raised from death in the O.T./N.T had to die again. This seems to be why it never uses the word "resurrection" for them. But It does work the other way. Resurrected people are said to be raised in the future.

Shalom, Uriah.

No, I got your point. That's what the First GENERAL Resurrection will be all about. God will raise to life all of the Saints talked about in the TANAKH (the "Old Testament") as well as those who have died since the Messiah was Resurrected.

This is a truth that I anticipate with great delight! I look forward to seeing David (pronounced "Dah-VEED") and Yhownaataan ("Jonathan") together once again! They were the best of friends, but their time together was cut short, because Yhownaataan's father, Sha'uwl, was so determined to kill David! And, then, Yhownaataan was killed in battle against the P'lishtiym (the Philistines). I look forward to them getting away for a fishing trip together.

My point was that, while there will be general resurrections at the beginning of the Millennium and at the end of the Millennium (at the Great White Throne Judgment), there will be MULTIPLE, individual resurrections THROUGHOUT the Millennium. Not only did Yeshua` say, "I am the Resurrection and the Life," but we also read when He sent out His Twelve,

Matthew 10:1-15 (KJV)

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;
The first, Simon, who is called Peter,
and Andrew his brother;
James the son of Zebedee,
and John his brother; 
3 Philip,
and Bartholomew;
Thomas,
and Matthew the publican;
James the son of Alphaeus,
and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 
4 Simon the Canaanite,
and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach (herald), saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand (is within your grasp).' 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

I anticipate similar circumstances in the first 1,000 years of Yeshua`s Kingdom. God supported Yeshua` and His disciples with miracles to ENDORSE what they were heralding as the good news about the Kingdom. Circumstances will be the same, with the exception that the Kingdom will have started by then.

Matthew 4:23-25 (KJV)

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel (heralding the good news) of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. 25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

The heralding of the good news of the Kingdom ALWAYS went hand-in-hand with the healings they performed. The healings (including the resurrections) were GOD'S AUTHENTICATION of their message!

On 9/13/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uriah said:

Those raised on earth so far were raised by another person. Jesus was NOT, He was resurrected by God the Father himself. Yes, it will be Preeminent, Jesus' resurrection was also. 

Before we get to Revelation 20, let's look at the Master Yeshua`s statements in John 5:

John 5:25-29 (KJV)

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Why is Yeshua` the natural choice for Judge? HE'S BEEN THERE!

Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV)

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens (Greek: dieleeluthota tous ouranous = "having-passed-through the skies"), Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Timothy 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

On 9/13/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uriah said:

But what we see in Rev. 20 is people who have been raised the same way as Jesus, and are like him. In Gal 6 He is called a "new creature". Like a way of saying a new species! This cannot be said about anyone who was raised and died again here on Earth. 

True, but HE will be the Source of Life for those resurrected at His return.

On 9/13/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uriah said:

So I defend the idea of the preeminence AND order from cheapening their status by words that are similar and can be used alternately to make unlimited resurrections etc.

Again, they will stand before the Judge having been resurrected. See, I don't think of Ezekiel 37 as a parable. It's a part of the PROPHECY given to Yechezk'eel ("Ezekiel"):

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit (on the Wind) of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, 'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; "Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 

9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.'

12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

'Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

On 9/13/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uriah said:

The nations are made up of people! And the ones at Armageddon will DIE. Therefore we see picture two groups -from all nations. Those who are sent to the place prepared for them in the joy of the Lord/ those cast into fire. The resurrection of life/damnation.

Sure, nations are made up of people; however, their LEADERSHIP is usually limited to a few, whether to a single king, a congress of representatives, or an oligarchy that represents what they feel is the best choices for its populace. Even a dictator is a leader, which may or may not make the best choices for his populace.

When there is a war tribunal, it's the LEADERSHIP that is brought before the Judge as the representatives for the country they represent! That may be the actual leaders, their embassy representatives, or their military generals, but it is the COUNTRY that is under scrutiny!

See, we also have the parables about the Kingdom that Yeshua` spoke in Matthew 13. NONE of these parables, except the very first one, are about the PRESENT situations. They all speak to the FUTURE about the conditions of the Kingdom AFTER our Master's return!

Matthew 13:24-30 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Later, when asked, He explained:

Matthew 13: (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world (age);
and the reapers are the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

In this parable and its explanation, Yeshua` told us that there were TWO Kingdoms, His own (the Messiah's) Kingdom, and that of His Father, (Their Father's) Kingdom.

This is precisely what Paul was trying to convey in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign (during the Millennium), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. [But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.] 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, the Messiah's Kingdom begins at the beginning of the Millennium, and He reigns until He has subdued all enemies under His feet.

Then, at the END of the age; that is, at the END of the Millennium, that last 1,000 years of this age, He shall have His judgment in Revelation 20:7-15, consigning those who were children of the wicked one, to the Lake of Fire, and the messengers (Greek: hoi aggeloi) shall throw them into the furnace of fire. In Revelation, the Father's Kingdom begins when the New Earth and its New Sky are brought into existence and the New Jerusalem lands upon the New Earth in Revelation 21:1-4.

On 9/13/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uriah said:

Ahh, you get my point, "sleep: is a euphemism. And I rely on Jesus' words about being "passed" to life as revealing the aspect of time(lessness) at death for believers.

God (will) bless you! 

Yes, "sleep" is a euphemism, but it is also a LITERAL description of what happens to us after death. We SLEEP in the ground until the Master Yeshua` the Messiah awakens us out of that sleep, and we are changed.

[Kelly2363]

On 9/17/2021 at 3:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

First, Yeshua` never said that He was God. He always claimed to be at most the "Son of God." In fact, as the "Son of God," He frequently prayed to His Father, YHWH God.

Second, Christians tend to exaggerate the role of Yeshua` the Messiah, making Him out to be God, but He is the MEDIATOR between God and men! Indeed, He most often referred to Himself as the "Son of man."

I'll await your response at this point.

 

Shalom @Retrobyter

Thank you for the entire post, brother I read it numerous times and enjoyed the direction in your words and the value of knowing the detail - and albeit I had considered it all before I found elements of it a refreshing reminder of what is valuable when we are minded to cherish the Old Testament - with a mind to understanding Christ our redeemer. 

Also glad to hear that your operation went well and that your recovery from the wound is progressing well. May the Lord deliver you from death and grant you sufficient years to His glory and praise. 

It is this last element I have quoted above that I need some more explanation of - would you do that for me brother and explain what you mean?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

Shalom @Retrobyter

Thank you for the entire post, brother I read it numerous times and enjoyed the direction in your words and the value of knowing the detail - and albeit I had considered it all before I found elements of it a refreshing reminder of what is valuable when we are minded to cherish the Old Testament - with a mind to understanding Christ our redeemer. 

Also glad to hear that your operation went well and that your recovery from the wound is progressing well. May the Lord deliver you from death and grant you sufficient years to His glory and praise. 

It is this last element I have quoted above that I need some more explanation of - would you do that for me brother and explain what you mean?

Shabbat shalom, @Kelly2363.

Sure. You quoted:

Quote

 

First, Yeshua` never said that He was God. He always claimed to be at most the "Son of God." In fact, as the "Son of God," He frequently prayed to His Father, YHWH God.

Second, Christians tend to exaggerate the role of Yeshua` the Messiah, making Him out to be God, but He is the MEDIATOR between God and men! Indeed, He most often referred to Himself as the "Son of man."

 

It is with great trepidation that I tread here. See, I'm of the opinion that Yeshua` is indeed the Son of God, but not the fictitious, theological label, "God the Son." One will not find that label anywhere in the Scriptures.

Having said that, let me back up and explain: First, Yochanan ("John") did give us Yeshua`s origin as the Word, who was indeed the Creator God.

John 1:1-5, 14 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory [brightness], the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

HOWEVER, when He was "made flesh," He gave up some attributes in the process. First, He no longer was omnipresent. He became LOCALIZED as a body of flesh. He was rightly called "the Son of God," because His origins were from the power of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God).

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!"

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible."

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

So, Yeshua` was LITERALLY the Son of God, having been conceived by the power of the Highest. This, in part, fulfilled the Davidic Covenant:

2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV)

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Verse 12 is frequently thought to be about Shlomoh ("Solomon"), but Shlomoh began reigning BEFORE David "slept with his fathers." The "seed," then, cannot refer to Shlomoh. Instead, it is about the Ultimate Messiah to come. Notice, too, that verse 14 doesn't say, "I will be AS his father, and he shall be AS my son"; it says "I will BE his father, and he shall BE my son." And, now, from the passages above, we can see how that was made possible.

Now, as I said, there were some attributes - some characteristics about  God to whom we attribute these characteristics - which God possesses that the Messiah Yeshua` does not. The first was omnipresence. He gave that up when He was localized to a body of flesh. Now, like other human beings, He could leave and come back.

The second attribute He relinquished was omniscience. He no longer knew everything. We're told in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 24:36 (KJV)

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:32 (KJV)

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

And, the Greek text of Matthew 24:36 also included the words "oude ho Huios," translated as "neither the Son."

Paul said to the Philippians,

Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name (an authority) which is above every name (authority): 10 That at the name (by the authority) of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Yeshua` the Messiah is Master), to the glory (fame) of God the Father.

So, again, I say carefully, Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the Son of God, is no longer fully God, and His titles include the fact that He is "the SON of God." 

That's not a bad thing, because Paul also said to Timothy that ...

1 Timothy 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God (the Father), and one mediator between God and men, the MAN  Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua`); 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Yeshua` further attested through His actions and His words that He was NOT God, for Yeshua` prayed often to God, His Father, and He said,

Matthew 19:16-17 (KJV)

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him,

"Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

17 And he said unto him,

"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Mark 10:17-18 (KJV)

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him,

"Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"

18 And Jesus said unto him,

"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Luke 18:18-19 (KJV)

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying,

"Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

19 And Jesus said unto him,

"Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

So, in all three accounts of this incidence, He makes a distinction between Himself and His Father, God.

Furthermore, the author of the book to the Hebrews wrote:

Hebrews 2:5-18 (KJV)

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying,

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet." (Psalm 8:4-6) 

For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet "all things put under him."

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect (mature) through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, "I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee."

13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

So, we have a short hierarchy:

God
 |
Yeshua` the Son of God
 |
All mankind

When we look up, Yeshua` is the first One we see, and He is the Mediator between us and the God above Him, His Father.

This is as good as I can explain it, but Yeshua` the Messiah of God should ALWAYS be called "the SON of God."

[Uriah]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

there will be general resurrections at the beginning of the Millennium and at the end of the Millennium

The problem is: this is not found in scripture. There is one in Rev 20 called the first and also one for "the rest" when the thousand years are finished. The great white throne verse comes after a parenthetic passage indicating that it is a continuation/returning of the original narrative pertaining to the first resurrection AFTER a digression into the future.

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

there will be MULTIPLE, individual resurrections THROUGHOUT the Millennium

Again, totally unscriptural. 

People were raised from death, but the word "resurrection" is not applied to them.

1Cor. 15:42- So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

This ONLY true for Jesus so far. Jesus said regarding those in the resurrection:

Luke 20:36-  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

This does not apply to ANY of those raised back to life in the bible.

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sure, nations are made up of people; however,....  a few,.... representatives,.... for its populace....

They all speak to the FUTURE about the conditions of the Kingdom AFTER our Master's return!

 Woe, no way! People will stand before God for judgment for themselves!

Right! The future is in Matt 25 with Jesus on His Glorious (white) Throne. 

On 9/13/2021 at 1:15 PM, Retrobyter said:

And, yet, both Yeshua` (our Lord) in John 11:11 and 13 above, Matthew 9:34, and Luke 8:52 and Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, and 51, and in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 5:10 gave us the word "sleep" for the temporary death in the Messiah. 

Right! The future is in Matt 25 with Jesus on His Glorious (white) Throne. 

And it includes others as well. Dan. 12:2- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Now look at John 5:25- Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is Lazarus!

John 5:28- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice

This has not happened yet.

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I don't think of Ezekiel 37 as a parable. It's a part of the PROPHECY

It IS a prophecy, And in prophecies there representations are used. For it to be literal, one would have to the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel are a pile of bones. But the whole house of Israel includes those not born yet- and others that will be born AFTER us!

 

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Then, at the END of the age; that is, at the END of the Millennium, that last 1,000 years of this age, He shall have His judgment in Revelation 20:7-15, consigning those who were children of the wicked one, to the Lake of Fire, and the messengers (Greek: hoi aggeloi) shall throw them into the furnace of fire. In Revelation, the Father's Kingdom begins when the New Earth and its New Sky are brought into existence and the New Jerusalem lands upon the New Earth in Revelation 21:1-4.

Rev 20:7-10 are meant to be in parentheses. THEN we continue what happens at the BEGINNING of the 1,000 yrs!

You need to read Rev. 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The old heaven (sky) is already being torn away while the Earth is undergoing a transformation! 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Uriah
highlight/sp

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

The problem is: this is not found in scripture. There is one in Rev 20 called the first and also one for "the rest" when the thousand years are finished. The great white throne verse comes after a parenthetic passage indicating that it is a continuation/returning of the original narrative pertaining to the first resurrection AFTER a digression into the future.

Shalom, Uriah.

Sometimes, one must read between the lines, so to speak. First of all, you recognize the initial, GENERAL Resurrection in Revelation 20. This is found in verses 4 and 5b through 6. Verse 5a is parenthetical, looking forward to the END of the Millennium.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (air-breathing beings) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(Sometimes, chapter and verse numbers get in the way. The original text did not contain these reference markers.)

The First Resurrection is a GENERAL Resurrection. It does NOT consist of just the beheaded, but of all on whom the Second Death has no power.

This group includes us, too. We all shall be "priests of YHWH God and of His Mashiyach," and we all "shall reign with Him a thousand years."

The Second GENERAL Resurrection, as mentioned in 5a, called "the rest of the dead" shall "not live again until the thousand years are finished." This is expanded in verses 12 through 14:

Revelation 20:12-14 (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (hard to do without FEET!); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 13 in particular is talking about this general resurrection.

Yeshua` said, 

John 5:19-29 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (at the BEGINNING of the Millennium); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (at the END of the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgment and the sentencing to the Lake of Fire)."

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Again, totally unscriptural. 

Really? I find SEVERAL places in Scripture that speak of it!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

People were raised from death, but the word "resurrection" is not applied to them.

Aw, sure it is. Any time a person who was dead and is raised to life is called a "resurrection." 

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

1Cor. 15:42- So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

This ONLY true for Jesus so far.

I agree. Yeshua` is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, and only He has been Resurrected and Transformed, so far.

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Jesus said regarding those in the resurrection:

Luke 20:36-  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Yeshua` specifically called these "the resurrection of life," in John 5:29.

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

This does not apply to ANY of those raised back to life in the bible.

Well, if you're talking about those raised to life during Yeshua`s first Advent, then, yes, I can agree with you.

To my statement (truncated),

Quote

 

Sure, nations are made up of people; however,....  a few,.... representatives,.... for its populace....

They all speak to the FUTURE about the conditions of the Kingdom AFTER our Master's return!

 

you said,

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Woe, no way! People will stand before God for judgment for themselves!

Well, eventually that is true; however, I'm talking about the NATIONAL judgment that happens almost IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Messiah returns. Again, NO ONE at the sheep and the goats war tribunal are thrown into the Fire!

The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are not given any specific orders, and all the King says is ...

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...."

And, after His order, we read,

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The messengers do NOT throw them into the "everlasting fire" at this point in time. This is, after all, at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, for Yeshua` also said,

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels (messengers) with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

The Kingdom is just getting started when the Son of man comes back and sits on His throne of brightness! The King says to the ones who treated His people rightly, "inherit the kingdom!" This does NOT occur at the end of the Millennium, but at its BEGINNING!

However, Revelation 20 clearly tells us that the Great White Throne Judgment and the time when the messengers ("angels") throw the unjust into the Lake of Fire occur at the END of the Millennium!

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast (thrown) into the lake of fire.

 

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Right! The future is in Matt 25 with Jesus on His Glorious (white) Throne. 

First, "on His glorious throne" translated from the Greek phrase "epi thronou doxees autou," meaning "upon a-throne of-glory/fame/ brightness of-Him." "Doxees" does NOT mean "white!" In Revelation 20:11, the word translated "white" is the Greek word "leukon" from which we get our word "leukocyte" meaning a "white blood cell."

Second, as shown above, this sheep/goats separation doesn't occur at the END of the first 1,000 years of His reign, but at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

And it includes others as well. Dan. 12:2- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Now look at John 5:25- Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Both of these passages are general mentions of both Resurrections, but again, we're told in Revelation 20 that they have a THOUSAND YEARS between the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the Unjust.

When dealing with prophecy, sometimes one is looking away at two peaks that appear to be side-by-side, only to find out later that there is a huge valley between them, in this case, consisting of a THOUSAND YEARS!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

This is Lazarus!

You think Yeshua` didn't know that Eleazar ("Lazarus") was not raised to newness of life and would have to die again?

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

John 5:28- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice

This has not happened yet.

It IS a prophecy, And in prophecies there representations are used. For it to be literal, one would have to the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel are a pile of bones. But the whole house of Israel includes those not born yet- and others that will be born AFTER us!

Of course this is still in our future.

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 20:7-10 are meant to be in parentheses. THEN we continue what happens at the BEGINNING of the 1,000 yrs!

Nope. This is a common misunderstanding among postmillennials and amillennials, but it neglects the actual wording of the Greek tenses. Verses 11 through 15 are ALSO at the end of the Millennium, just as verses 7 through 10 are.

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

You need to read Rev. 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The old heaven (sky) is already being torn away while the Earth is undergoing a transformation! 

 

Nonsense. Revelation 6:14, which is part of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-17, is talking about the herald meteorites that strike the earth just prior to the other, larger meteorites which comprise the first five trumpet (siren) judgments. However, the whole sky is not made new until Revelation 21:1.

[Kelly2363]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It is with great trepidation that I tread here. See, I'm of the opinion that Yeshua` is indeed the Son of God, but not the fictitious, theological label, "God the Son." One will not find that label anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

Thank you.

[Uriah]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:23 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Sometimes, one must read between the lines, so to speak. First of all, you recognize the initial, GENERAL Resurrection in Revelation 20. This is found in verses 4 and 5b through 6. Verse 5a is parenthetical, looking forward to the END of the Millennium.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (air-breathing beings) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(Sometimes, chapter and verse numbers get in the way. The original text did not contain these reference markers.)

The First Resurrection is a GENERAL Resurrection. It does NOT consist of just the beheaded, but of all on whom the Second Death has no power.

This group includes us, too. We all shall be "priests of YHWH God and of His Mashiyach," and we all "shall reign with Him a thousand years."

The Second GENERAL Resurrection, as mentioned in 5a, called "the rest of the dead" shall "not live again until the thousand years are finished." This is expanded in verses 12 through 14:

Revelation 20:12-14 (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (hard to do without FEET!); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 13 in particular is talking about this general resurrection.

Yeshua` said, 

John 5:19-29 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (at the BEGINNING of the Millennium); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (at the END of the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgment and the sentencing to the Lake of Fire)."

Really? I find SEVERAL places in Scripture that speak of it!

Aw, sure it is. Any time a person who was dead and is raised to life is called a "resurrection." 

I agree. Yeshua` is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, and only He has been Resurrected and Transformed, so far.

Yeshua` specifically called these "the resurrection of life," in John 5:29.

Well, if you're talking about those raised to life during Yeshua`s first Advent, then, yes, I can agree with you.

To my statement (truncated),

 

you said,

Well, eventually that is true; however, I'm talking about the NATIONAL judgment that happens almost IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Messiah returns. Again, NO ONE at the sheep and the goats war tribunal are thrown into the Fire!

The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are not given any specific orders, and all the King says is ...

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...."

And, after His order, we read,

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The messengers do NOT throw them into the "everlasting fire" at this point in time. This is, after all, at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, for Yeshua` also said,

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels (messengers) with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

The Kingdom is just getting started when the Son of man comes back and sits on His throne of brightness! The King says to the ones who treated His people rightly, "inherit the kingdom!" This does NOT occur at the end of the Millennium, but at its BEGINNING!

However, Revelation 20 clearly tells us that the Great White Throne Judgment and the time when the messengers ("angels") throw the unjust into the Lake of Fire occur at the END of the Millennium!

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast (thrown) into the lake of fire.

 

First, "on His glorious throne" translated from the Greek phrase "epi thronou doxees autou," meaning "upon a-throne of-glory/fame/ brightness of-Him." "Doxees" does NOT mean "white!" In Revelation 20:11, the word translated "white" is the Greek word "leukon" from which we get our word "leukocyte" meaning a "white blood cell."

Second, as shown above, this sheep/goats separation doesn't occur at the END of the first 1,000 years of His reign, but at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

Both of these passages are general mentions of both Resurrections, but again, we're told in Revelation 20 that they have a THOUSAND YEARS between the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the Unjust.

When dealing with prophecy, sometimes one is looking away at two peaks that appear to be side-by-side, only to find out later that there is a huge valley between them, in this case, consisting of a THOUSAND YEARS!

You think Yeshua` didn't know that Eleazar ("Lazarus") was not raised to newness of life and would have to die again?

Of course this is still in our future.

Nope. This is a common misunderstanding among postmillennials and amillennials, but it neglects the actual wording of the Greek tenses. Verses 11 through 15 are ALSO at the end of the Millennium, just as verses 7 through 10 are.

Nonsense. Revelation 6:14, which is part of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-17, is talking about the herald meteorites that strike the earth just prior to the other, larger meteorites which comprise the first five trumpet (siren) judgments. However, the whole sky is not made new until Revelation 21:1.

?!

[missmuffet]

There is a final resurrection, of the unbelieving dead off all ages. Jesus Christ will raise them from the dead John 5:25-29. This will happen after the 1000 year millennium. This resurrection was described by Daniel. Daniel 12:2.