Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[not an echo]

On 9/20/2021 at 3:28 PM, WilliamL said:

On 9/19/2021 at 1:13 AM, not an echo said:

Hello William,

You say, "Note that Peter did NOT accurately quote Joel 2..."  Do you mean by this that you think Peter was mistaken?

Haven't a clue what was going on in Peter's mind. Da Puppers post in response to mine is a good an answer as I think one could posit.

Hello William,

Seems to me that what was going on in Peter's mind was what Christ's Spirit was inspiring him to say.  And, in regard to Joel's prophecy that had been spoken centuries prior, Christ's Spirit was opening Peter's understanding to make the "last days" connection to which Joel's word "afterward" (Joel 2:28) pointed.

The night before Jesus was crucified, He spoke to the disciples about His Holy Spirit and what He, by His Spirit, would do in their lives. Consider from John 14:

 16  And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever.

 17  Even the Spirit of TRUTH;  whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him:  but ye know Him;  for He dwelleth with you, and shall be IN YOU.

 18  I will not leave you comfortless:  I WILL COME TO YOU.

I really like that part, "I will come to you"!  Further, notice this that He says a few verses later in the same chapter:

 26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And then, on the same night, He spoke this as recorded in John 16:

 13  Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH:  for He shall not speak of Himself;  but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak:  AND HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME.

So, for me, I see what Peter said concerning Joel's prophecy as being very illuminating and awesome.  Said another way, when Peter said, "But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel, Peter quoted it by the power of Christ's Spirit (Acts 1:8) according to the minute exactness of which the New Testament Church should receive it.  And, when this is done, it can be seen that Joel's prophecy is precise TO THE VERY DAY of both the commencement and the conclusion of the era of the NT Church.  The beginning day, the day of the inauguration of this era, was the Day of Pentecost.  Then, by the rest of Joel's prophecy that Peter quotes (Acts 2:17-21), it can be discovered that the ending day will be the day that the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment begins---the day that the Lamb opens the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17).  By the fit of these prophetic puzzle pieces, we can see more clearly how that other pieces correctly fit, like Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31 and Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:16-5:4.

Edited June 5, 2023 by not an echo

[The Light]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Zero Turn,

Decades ago I began to have my doubts that it is the Church that John sees in Heaven in Revelation 4-5.  Because I grew up under the tutelage of the common pre-trib view, I had a lot of exposure to this take on things.  But, as I began to study things out for myself and to look at other possibilities, I came to another conclusion.

I had the exact same doubts. After much study it eventually became obvious that the rapture happened after the tribulation, and before the wrath of God, at the 6th seal. Then I realized that the fig tree has two harvests.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Right in the Word it says that the fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest. But since they served other gods, they would NOT be the first harvest. The Gentiles would be the first harvest.

It is through jealousy that the Jew would realize that Jesus is the Messiah.

Rom 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The part of the Jews cannot have their eyes opened UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The will occur with the pre 70th week rapture of the Church. Then God will turn attention to His Chosen. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

There will be two raptures. One rapture pre 70th week, before the tribulation begins for the Church and one immediately after the tribulation for the 12 tribes across the earth.

The great multitude contains both the Church and the 12 tribes across the earth. Only the nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Moreover, if those who make up the NT Church are raptured with the opening of the 6th Seal, as I believe, we could rightly expect that John would see these in Heaven also. 

The new testament Church is not mentioned after Rev 3 (until Rev 19) because they are no longer around. God turns His attention to His Chosen people. We see that the Dragon is wroth with the woman when He can't get to her and goes after her seed.

A person is considered Jewish if their mother is Jewish. The seed of the woman are Jews

Rev 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There is a reason that we are told that Jesus will come immediately after the tribulation and yet we are told He will come in an hour that we think not. He is coming once for His Church in the early summer harvest and He is coming again for the fall fruit harvest of the 12 tribes. Here we see the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are before the throne as first fruits. That means they first fruits were accepted and there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes.

Rev 14

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by The Light

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

So, for me, I see what Peter said concerning Joel's prophecy as being very illuminating and awesome.  Said another way, when Peter said, "But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel, Peter quoted it by the power of Christ's Spirit (Acts 1:8) according to the minute exactness of which the New Testament Church should receive it.  And, when this is done, it can be seen how that Joel's prophecy is precise TO THE VERY DAY of both the commencement and the conclusion of the era of the NT Church.  The beginning day, the day of the inauguration of this era, was the Day of Pentecost.  Then, by the rest of Joel's prophecy that Peter quotes (Acts 2:17-21), it can be discovered that the ending day will be the day that the period of the Day of the Lord begins---the day that the Lamb opens the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17).  By the fit of these prophetic puzzle pieces, we can see more clearly how that other pieces correctly fit, like Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31 and Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:16-5:4.

Hi not an ehco,

Remember I said that the word `Day` in Greek is `hemera,` meaning a specific 24 hour day AND a period of time. 

Now both those meanings are referred to in God`s word -

1. Time Period -The Day of the Lord, (God Almighty) for judgment - includes the tribulation and the millennium. (Joel 2: 1 - 11, Zeph. 1: 14 - 18)

2. Specific Day. The Day of the Lord when he returns to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious.  (Rev. 6: 12 - 17,  Zech. 14: 1 & 2)

 

I think that you are only seeing the Day of the Lord as one specific Day and haven`t taken into account the `time period` also.

It is like when we say - Christmas, (one day) and we can also mean the time period leading up to Christmas. 

Thus from Joel 2 we see that the Day of the Lord, (God Almighty) time period, starts when the far northern army (the Russian Federation and 3 others) are brought down to the mountains of Israel. (The Golan heights) There God deals with them. (Ez. 38 & 39)

Then at the end of the tribulation we know that the Lord returns in power and great glory to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious. (Deut. 32: 43,   Rev. 19: 11 - 21) That is the specific Day of the Lord. (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

[The Light]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:12 AM, Diaste said:

The 6th seal is the sign of Jesus coming and the fear of the people of earth, not the beginning of wrath.

The 7th trump is the moment when Jesus appears and when wrath is to begin, which beginning falls after the gathering of the 7th or last trump. Only the 7 bowls are God's wrath and the onset of that wrath begins only after the last, or 7th, trump.

Wrath begins at the 1st trump and ends with the 7th trump when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. 

The vials are just a different view of the Gods wrath.

[not an echo]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, The Light said:

On 9/21/2021 at 7:13 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Zero Turn,

Decades ago I began to have my doubts that it is the Church that John sees in Heaven in Revelation 4-5.  Because I grew up under the tutelage of the common pre-trib view, I had a lot of exposure to this take on things.  But, as I began to study things out for myself and to look at other possibilities, I came to another conclusion.

I had the exact same doubts. After much study it eventually became obvious that the rapture happened after the tribulation, and before the wrath of God, at the 6th seal. Then I realized that the fig tree has two harvests.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Right in the Word it says that the fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest. But since they served other gods, they would NOT be the first harvest. The Gentiles would be the first harvest.

It is through jealousy that the Jew would realize that Jesus is the Messiah.

Rom 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The part of the Jews cannot have their eyes opened UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The will occur with the pre 70th week rapture of the Church. Then God will turn attention to His Chosen. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church.

Hello Zero Turn,

I just want to make sure about something here and to also agree with you on something.

First of all, in your first paragraph, when you say "After much study it eventually became obvious that the rapture happened after the tribulation,"  are you meaning the tribulation that the Church has been through since the time of Christ, or do you mean the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week?  Now, this may sound kind of like a dumb question when I tell you what I agree with you about, but I've been thinking that you believe the seals are Daniel's 70th Week, which would seem to me to be in conflict with the statement you make that I agree with.  That statement that I agree with is your last sentence:  "The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church."

On 9/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, The Light said:

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

There will be two raptures. One rapture pre 70th week, before the tribulation begins for the Church and one immediately after the tribulation for the 12 tribes across the earth.

The great multitude contains both the Church and the 12 tribes across the earth. Only the nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

I'm just not sure what you are meaning here.  I know I have heard you speak of two raptures a few times, but I have never really understood how you get that.  What you say concerning "One rapture pre 70th week, before the tribulation begins for the Church" is confusing me.  Then, when you say "and one immediately after the tribulation for the 12 tribes across the earth,"  are you meaning by the word tribulation Daniel's 70th Week?  It might be easier for me to keep up with you if you always say Daniel's 70th Week when speaking about Daniel's 70th Week, and tribulation when speaking about tribulation.  Even the use of the phrase "great tribulation" can pose understanding difficulties if this is always seen to be Daniel's 70th Week, as many believe.  I go into this in a recent thread I entitled Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

On 9/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, The Light said:

The great multitude contains both the Church and the 12 tribes across the earth. Only the nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

While I know we see some things alike, we see some things so differently that it may take me a while to "download" your program, but I'm trying.  By "The great multitude" I'm taking it that you mean the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17.  And, I certainly agree that this multitude includes the Church.  I would just go further and say that it is made up of the Church and the resurrected that have just received their resurrection bodies.  When you say "and the 12 tribes across the earth" I'm not sure why you are saying it like that.  Are you talking about the 144,000 that were sealed just prior to this?  Do you have a layout of your whole view anywhere on the forum?  Being able to review that would probably take care of many of the things I am wondering about that you say.

On 9/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, The Light said:

On 9/21/2021 at 7:13 PM, not an echo said:

 

Moreover, if those who make up the NT Church are raptured with the opening of the 6th Seal, as I believe, we could rightly expect that John would see these in Heaven also. 

The new testament Church is not mentioned after Rev 3 (until Rev 19) because they are no longer around.

According to my understandings, there is much Scripture and logic to support that the last time the Church is mentioned or seen in The Revelation, it is after the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 7:9-17, as part of the "great multitude" (vs. 9).  This is because they were just raptured with the opening of the 6th Seal---just before the beginning of the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment (Rev. 6:17;  I Thess. 4:16-5:4;  Matt. 24:29-31;  Acts 2:20).

On 9/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, The Light said:

Rev 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There is a reason that we are told that Jesus will come immediately after the tribulation and yet we are told He will come in an hour that we think not. He is coming once for His Church in the early summer harvest and He is coming again for the fall fruit harvest of the 12 tribes. Here we see the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are before the throne as first fruits. That means they first fruits were accepted and there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes.

Rev 14

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I believe the 144,000 will be sealed at the time of the rapture and will continue on the earth through much of Daniel's 70th Week.  I believe it is they to whom Revelation 12:11 and 13:7 is a reference to.  Then, we see them in Heaven in Revelation 14:1-5.  But, I'm not aware of anything like a rapture event concerning them.  Why are you thinking that there is going to be something like a rapture event concerning them?  Are you thinking that for the harvest(s) of God's children to take place, there has to be something like a rapture event?  With the Church, we know that there is going to be a rapture.  But, with the rest of God's children, I'm thinking that God can work that however He wants.  Consider those who refuse the mark of the beast.  We see them in Heaven in Revelation 15:2-4, but nothing is said about an event like the rapture in connection with them either.

About the time I was ready to push Submit Reply, I thought, "Wow, I had clean forgot that I wanted the focus of this thread to be on Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD."  See what you did Zero Turn.  You done gone and got me all sidetracked.  I'm gonna have to start watching you...

Edited June 5, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 9/22/2021 at 1:02 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 9/21/2021 at 9:56 PM, not an echo said:

 

So, for me, I see what Peter said concerning Joel's prophecy as being very illuminating and awesome.  Said another way, when Peter said, "But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel, Peter quoted it by the power of Christ's Spirit (Acts 1:8) according to the minute exactness of which the New Testament Church should receive it.  And, when this is done, it can be seen how that Joel's prophecy is precise TO THE VERY DAY of both the commencement and the conclusion of the era of the NT Church.  The beginning day, the day of the inauguration of this era, was the Day of Pentecost.  Then, by the rest of Joel's prophecy that Peter quotes (Acts 2:17-21), it can be discovered that the ending day will be the day that the period of the Day of the Lord begins---the day that the Lamb opens the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17).  By the fit of these prophetic puzzle pieces, we can see more clearly how that other pieces correctly fit, like Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31 and Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:16-5:4.

Hi not an ehco,

Remember I said that the word `Day` in Greek is `hemera,` meaning a specific 24 hour day AND a period of time. 

Now both those meanings are referred to in God`s word -

1. Time Period -The Day of the Lord, (God Almighty) for judgment - includes the tribulation and the millennium. (Joel 2: 1 - 11, Zeph. 1: 14 - 18)

2. Specific Day. The Day of the Lord when he returns to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious.  (Rev. 6: 12 - 17,  Zech. 14: 1 & 2)

Hello Marilyn,

I am kind of surprised by the references you use and what you say of them.  In your example of 1. Time Period, you list Joel 2:1-11 and Zephaniah 1:14-18.  I certainly see these references a being time periods, but as prophecies concerning what was looming on Israel and Judah's horizons in the days of the invading Assyrians and Babylonians.

Concerning your example of 2. Specific Day, I see Rev. 6:12-17 as the beginning of the Day of the Lord in the sense of a time period as well---a period that will continue until the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  Also, I understand Zechariah 14:1 as being of the same time period, but not as much information is given in Zechariah as in The Revelation.

On 9/22/2021 at 1:02 AM, Marilyn C said:

I think that you are only seeing the Day of the Lord as one specific Day and haven`t taken into account the `time period` also.

It is like when we say - Christmas, (one day) and we can also mean the time period leading up to Christmas. 

Thus from Joel 2 we see that the Day of the Lord, (God Almighty) time period, starts when the far northern army (the Russian Federation and 3 others) are brought down to the mountains of Israel. (The Golan heights) There God deals with them. (Ez. 38 & 39)

Then at the end of the tribulation we know that the Lord returns in power and great glory to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious. (Deut. 32: 43,   Rev. 19: 11 - 21) That is the specific Day of the Lord. (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

According to my understandings, the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is consistently used in reference to a period of time.  I go into more detail about this in my thread entitled The Pre-Trib Rapture and the Day of the Lord (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251771-the-pre-trib-rapture-and-the-day-of-the-lord/).

As I say in the first paragraph of my above thread, I understand that the word "day" can mean a specific day or a period of time.  But, according to my understanding, with the phrase "the Day of the Lord" the Bible is consistent with this representing a period of time.

As far as a similar phrase meaning a particular day, I believe "the Day of Christ" as used by Paul in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 is of the specific day of Christ's Second Advent (II Thess. 2:8).

As far as what you say in your next to last paragraph, I'm supposing that you are saying this in reference to verses 1-11 from your 1. Time Period example.  According to my understanding, this was fulfilled in the days of the Assyrian/Babylonian invasions.

Concerning your last paragraph, I'm just curious if you see Rev. 19:11-21 and Rev. 6:12-17 as being of the same event.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[The Light]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Zero Turn,

I just want to make sure about something here and to also agree with you on something.

First of all, in your first paragraph, when you say "After much study it eventually became obvious that the rapture happened after the tribulation,"  are you meaning the tribulation that the Church has been through since the time of Christ, or do you mean Daniel's 70th Week?

The tribulation of Daniels 70th week.

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

  Now, this may sound kind of like a dumb question when I tell you what I agree with you about, but I've been thinking that you believe the seals are Daniel's 70th Week, which would seem to me to be in conflict with the statement you make that I agree with.  That statement that I agree with is your last sentence:  "The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church."

I'm just not sure what you are meaning here.  I know I have heard you speak of two raptures a few times, but I have never really understood how you get that.  What you say concerning "One rapture pre 70th week, before the tribulation begins for the Church" is confusing me.  Then, when you say "and one immediately after the tribulation for the 12 tribes across the earth",  are you meaning by the word tribulation Daniel's 70th Week? 

Yes.

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

It might be easier for me to keep up with you if you always say Daniel's 70th Week when speaking about Daniel's 70th Week, and tribulation when speaking about tribulation.  Even the use of the phrase "great tribulation" can pose understanding difficulties if this is always seen to be Daniel's 70th Week, as many believe.  I go into this in a recent thread I entitled Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

Even though the Church has been going through tribulation since the beginning I guess it can be confusing since I use the word tribulation and 70th week to be talking about the same time frame, as the Church isn't even on the earth when the great tribulation occurs. I will try to watch myself so things are more clear.

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

While I know we see some things alike, we see some things so differently that it may take me a while to "download" your program, but I'm trying. 

It is extremely difficult to understand Revelation. There is so much logic necessary to understand the true order of what is written. God made it that way on purpose, of course. What you need to understand is that I used to believe all the things you are talking about, even that the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24 was part of the Church age. Many of the points you bring up are things I used to believe 10 years ago. Once I understood that the fig tree has two harvests the truth began to come forth. Once I decided to believe EXACTLY what is written and quit listening to other peoples conclusions, things started to open up. God puts quite a few things in the Word that are like obstacles that you must get past. It's like in Rev 11 when He says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. You have to believe that exactly. That means that He has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. That means the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. You could stop the story right there. Instead we get Rev 13-16 that is just more information about what happen in the seals and trumpets. Remember, I have told you before, there are many obstacles that you must get past to understand the order of Revelation. And there is no rearranging or anything like that, it's just understanding when the story ends and you get more information about the same story. Remember, Revelation is written just like Genesis 7. How many floods are there in Gen 7?

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

By "The great multitude" I'm taking it that you mean the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17.  And, I certainly agree that this multitude includes the Church.  I would just go further and say that it is made up of the Church and the resurrected that have just received their resurrection bodies.  When you say "and the 12 tribes across the earth" I'm not sure why you are saying it like that.  Are you talking about the 144,000 that were sealed just prior to this? 

This is extremely difficult to understand. You need to use logic. I will try to explain, but it is tough.

If you understand that when the 144,000 are sealed, they become believers. Most people think that those 144,000 go through the wrath of God because of this verse:

Rev 9

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

This is one of the those obstacles that I am talking about. The real story is that those 144,000 are part of the great multitude. The real story is that those 144,000 are actually sealed before the 6th seal and not after it. They are sealed sometime after the 1st seal. How do we know that? We know the when they are sealed they become believers. (look up some verses about being sealed by God). If you understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet, you can take the additional information given about the 144,000 in Rev 14 and apply it. We know that they are the first fruits unto God and stand before the throne.

Rev 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Since we know that they are the 1st fruits of the harvest, we know that they are off the earth before the harvest. The harvest is the great multitude of Rev 7. So they are not even on the earth when the wrath of God occurs.

This harvest of Rev 14 is just more information about the harvest from the earth in Rev 7 that is part of the great multitude.

Here's the great tribulation being spoken of in Rev 7

Rev 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here's the great tribulation in Rev 14

Rev 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the harvest FROM THE EARTH in Rev 14.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Note that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. How many wraths of God are there? ONE. This is what is occurring at the 6th seal when Jesus returns and people realize that the wrath of God is come. Of course it does not start until the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet blows.

When I said above that "here is the harvest FROM THE EARTH", that's what I meant. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are harvested from the earth at this time. The Church is already in heaven. When Jesus comes in the clouds for this harvest, the Church comes with His, because where the body is the eagles will be gathered.

So, the great multitude includes the 12 tribes that were gathered from the earth, and the Church that was gathered from heaven, who went with Jesus in the clouds. So it is a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

These things are extremely difficult to understand as there are many obstacles. You will break one obstacle but other obstacles will convince you that these things don't make sense. In reality, if you accept the things we know that we can prove, the other obstacles will fall and you will see the complete picture. I would start with the provable fact that there is only one wrath of God and it is over when the kingdoms of the this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. (Revelation 11)

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Do you have a lay out of your whole view anywhere on the forum?  Being able to review that would probably take care of many of the things I am wondering about that you say.

I have never done this. 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Will finish later.

Edited September 26, 2021 by The Light

[The Light]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

According to my understandings, there is much Scripture and logic to support that the last time the Church is mentioned, or seen in The Revelation, it is after the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 7:9-17, as part of the "great multitude" (vs. 9).

Yes the Church is in the great multitude and of course again in Rev 19 at the marriage supper.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

  This is because they were just raptured with the opening of the 6th Seal---just before the beginning of the period of the Day of the Lord (Rev. 6:17;  I Thess. 4:16-5:4;  Matt. 24:29-31;  Acts 2:20).

No. That is the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured at the 6th seal when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened as the seals are the 70th week of Daniel about the people of Daniel.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I believe the 144,000 will be sealed at the time of the rapture and will continue on the earth through much of Daniel's 70th Week. 

The 144,000 were sealed before the 6th seal is opened as we can prove by Rev 14. They are sealed after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which is the first harvest, pre 70th week rapture of the Church. It is only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers that go through the wrath of God.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I believe it is they to whom Revelation 12:11 and 13:7 is a reference to.  Then, we see them in Heaven in Revelaton 14:1-5.  But, I'm not aware of anything like a rapture event concerning them.  Why are you thinking that there is going to be something like a rapture event concerning them? 

There has to be a rapture event because they are the first fruits, STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE, and are REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

Rev 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

First fruits are presented by the priest unto God in a wave offering. If the offering is found to be acceptable, it is a guarantee of a harvest, hence that is why they are part of the great multitude of Rev 7.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Are you thinking that for the harvest(s) of God's children to take place, there has to be something like a rapture event? 

For there to be a harvest there has to be a first fruits offering that is acceptable to God.

Christ is the first fruits of those that sleep. Without His first fruits acceptance there would be no harvest of the dead.

1st Cor 15

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

With the Church, we know that there is going to be a rapture.  But, with the rest of God's children, I'm thinking that God can work that however He wants. 

You should know this is an incorrect statement. If there is a first fruits offering that is acceptable to God, it is a guarantee of a harvest. Since we see the 144,000 from the twelve tribes before the throne of God in heaven, we can be sure that there will be a harvest the the 12 tribes across the earth. That is who is harvest from the earth at the 6th seal. The Church is in heaven before any seals are opened.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Consider those who refuse the mark of the beast.  We see them in Heaven in Revelation 15:2-4, but nothing is said about an event like the rapture in connection with them either.

Sure there is. The rapture event is in Rev 14 when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. Here is the rapture event.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here is who is raptured from the earth and is before the throne. They are Jews as they are singing the song of Moses. They are the 12 tribes across the earth.

Rev 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

What you need to understand is that this is what is happening at the 6th seal. Remember, the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. What you see in Rev 13-14 are things that happen during the seals.

Rev 14

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

When these people are cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God that is the same thing you see beginning to happen at the 6th seal, as the wrath of God begins when the 1st trumpet is blown.

Rev 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

About the time I was ready to push Submit Reply, I thought, "Wow, I had clean forgot that I wanted the focus of this thread to be on Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD."  See what you did Zero Turn.  You done gone and got me all sidetracked.  I'm gonna have to start watching you...

The Day of the Lord is near Cub Tractor. Don't be a foolish virgin and think that He is coming immediately after the tribulation for His Church. He is coming for His Church in a hour that you think not, IN A SECRET PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE.

[Marilyn C]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

 

As far as what you say in your next to last paragraph, I'm supposing that you are saying this in reference to verses 1-11 from your 1. Time Period example.  According to my understanding, this was fulfilled in the days of the Assyrian/Babylonian invasions.

Concerning your last paragraph, I'm just curious if you see Rev. 19:11-21 and Rev. 6:12-17 as being of the same event.

Hi not an echo,

Good to discuss in such detail with you. I have referred back to your other thread. I printed it off and read it carefully, (I tend to skim read). Thus I see we do agree generally however a couple of specifics are different.

 

1. The Beginning of the Day of the Lord. (time period)

Joel 2: 1 - 20 The far northern army - the Russian Federation of Ez. 38 & 39. It is the beginning of the tribulation, within the Day of the Lord.

`For the Day of the Lord is coming, for it is at hand...` (Joel 2: 1)

That phrase, (as we know) is ONLY used for that appointed time of God`s wrath and ruling with His iron rod. 

 

2.  Christ`s return, (specific day of the Lord).

Joel 3: 14 - 16 `Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake, (great earthquake).` 

Rev. 6: 12 - 17. `...there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth.....then the sky receded as a scroll.....the great Day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand?`

Rev. 19: 11 - 21. `Then I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and true, and in righteousness He judges and makes war......he strikes the nations....the rest (world`s armies) were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.` 

 

3. The 7 Sealed Scroll given to Christ, the executor of God`s will, gives the overview of which nations, and peoples will be judged and when - Beginning, Middle and End. Knowing those positions we can then place all the events during the trib.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

[not an echo]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Zero Turn,

I just want to make sure about something here and to also agree with you on something.

First of all, in your first paragraph, when you say "After much study it eventually became obvious that the rapture happened after the tribulation,"  are you meaning the tribulation that the Church has been through since the time of Christ, or do you mean Daniel's 70th Week?

The tribulation of Daniels 70th week.

Hello Zero Turn,

First of all, because I'm really desirous to keep on track with the focus of this thread, I'm going to use the little "off topic" emoji before I start my actual replies.  However, I want you to know that my use of this will in no way mean that I am being negative towards you.  It is more for those who may be reading this, if they want to move beyond what is off topic (for this thread).  I know it is easy to stray off, because there are so many interconnections when it comes to the last days.  And, I may be the world's worse about chasing rabbits!  But, I want to try to make the effort, while also being considerate of your reply.  I know that much of your reply has to do with your belief that there will be two raptures.  Have you ever worked up a thread on this belief?  I would encourage you to do that if you haven't, as that would probably be the best way to make it better understood.  Whatever the case, I'm going off my thread topic now...

Concerning your above reply, if I am understanding your interpretations correctly, then the rapture you would be talking about would be the second one, the one you believe will be for the 12 tribes.  Am I getting your understanding right?

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

It might be easier for me to keep up with you if you always say Daniel's 70th Week when speaking about Daniel's 70th Week, and tribulation when speaking about tribulation.  Even the use of the phrase "great tribulation" can pose understanding difficulties if this is always seen to be Daniel's 70th Week, as many believe.  I go into this in a recent thread I entitled Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

Even though the Church has been going through tribulation since the beginning I guess it can be confusing since I use the word tribulation and 70th week to be talking about the same time frame, as the Church isn't even on the earth when the great tribulation occurs. I will try to watch myself so things are more clear.

For me, what you say, "as the Church isn't even on the earth when the great tribulation occurs" can send mixed signals too, as so many see "great tribulation" as being Daniel's 70th Week, or, the last half---so some.  IMHO, it needs to be understood that the Church has went through many times of great tribulation.  Many are going through a time of great tribulation even now, but not the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, as it will be a time of great tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  Again, I go into this in more detail in my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

While I know we see some things alike, we see some things so differently that it may take me a while to "download" your program, but I'm trying. 

It is extremely difficult to understand Revelation. There is so much logic necessary to understand the true order of what is written. God made it that way on purpose, of course.

The more I have studied The Revelation, the more that what I see as its true simplicity can be seen, so much so that I have wondered how all the scholars have so long missed it (in areas such as structure, chronology, and logic).  But then, God never said that scholarship was the key to understanding His Word.

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

What you need to understand is that I used to believe all the things you are talking about, even that the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24 was part of the Church age. Many of the points you bring up are things I used to believe 10 years ago.

What you are saying here highly interests me.  I have never seen any indication that anyone in the web world or in print has put forth what I have, as I have.  I hope you will look closely at the opening posts of my thread, A Completely Different Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  If you look at my 36 propositions, the only ones that are similar to the common pre-trib view are propositions D, E, F, G, J, and 9.  Of these, while J rings some of what scholars are saying, I have seen none that see the 4th Seal as I do.  Of the rest, I have seen some who hold to the other common views that will come out with an interpretation here or there that is kinda similar to something that I say, but none are bringing it all together in an organized and systematic way as I have.  If you know of anyone who has, I hope you will make me aware, even if it is indeed you.  THIS WOULD HIGHLY, HIGHLY INTEREST ME.  I would like to compare notes with anything that can be shown to be previously put forth, that is in accord with my view.  Mine is copyrighted and registered in the Library of Congress.  I only did this so that it can never be capitalized on for filthy lucre.  Someone out there may be saying what I am saying, and they may have got it like I did (by long prayerful study).  They may have even got it from me.  But, I can assure you that I didn't get it from them.  Many of my propositions I have never heard even hinted at before, like B, C, H, I, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10.  I am not an echo of anyone, other than what I feel Christ by His Spirit has revealed to me.  Moreover, I know that I may be wrong.  I mean, all of us would like to think that we are being led correctly, huh?  Reflective of this reality, what I chose for my email address a long time ago is these letters:  imaybewrong@...  Reassuring for me is, though my view has been highly scrutinized (and well before I presented it on the Worthy Forum), so far, I have never been posed a question or objection for which there is not a solid Biblical reply.  It is very seasoned.  To what extent it will become received, I do not know.  I have given that to God.  Presently, most of my efforts revolve around making it known and clarifying its tenets so that it can be more easily recognized as legit.

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

 

By "The great multitude" I'm taking it that you mean the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17.  And, I certainly agree that this multitude includes the Church.  I would just go further and say that it is made up of the Church and the resurrected that have just received their resurrection bodies.  When you say "and the 12 tribes across the earth" I'm not sure why you are saying it like that.  Are you talking about the 144,000 that were sealed just prior to this? 

This is extremely difficult to understand. You need to use logic. I will try to explain, but it is tough.

If you understand that when the 144,000 are sealed, they become believers. Most people think that those 144,000 go through the wrath of God because of this verse:

Rev 9

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

This is one of the those obstacles that I am talking about. The real story is that those 144,000 are part of the great multitude. The real story is that those 144,000 are actually sealed before the 6th seal and not after it. They are sealed sometime after the 1st seal. How do we know that? We know the when they are sealed they become believers. (look up some verses about being sealed by God). If you understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet, you can take the additional information given about the 144,000 in Rev 14 and apply it. We know that they are the first fruits unto God and stand before the throne.

Concerning your last paragraph, I'm not following you, especially the part about "those 144,000 are actually sealed before the 6th seal and not after it."  This is just too much in conflict with what John saw, as I see it.

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

Rev 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Since we know that they are the 1st fruits of the harvest, we know that they are off the earth before the harvest. The harvest is the great multitude of Rev 7. So they are not even on the earth when the wrath of God occurs.

For me, it is much easier to understand that they are on the earth during the period of the Day of the Lord (which begins the day the 6th and 7th Seals are opened), yet, they are protected from any of God's wrath.  Just like the children of Israel during the 10 plagues in Egypt or those who were obedient to God in the days of the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

Here's the great tribulation being spoken of in Rev 7

Rev 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Just a question:  Are you thinking the "great tribulation" here being spoken of is great tribulation, or, Daniel's 70th Week?  I believe that when the Church is raptured, it can truly be said of its members (even you and I Zero Turn), "These are they which came out of great tribulation..."

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Note that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. How many wraths of God are there? ONE. This is what is occurring at the 6th seal when Jesus returns and people realize that the wrath of God is come. Of course it does not start until the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet blows.

To me, it is much easier to understand the Day of the Lord as a period of time that will begin the same day that the 6th and 7th Seals are opened, and it will continue through the Last Judgment.   Consider what Peter says of the Day of the Lord with what we see near the end of The Revelation (II Pet. 3:10-13 with Rev. 20:11 and 21:1).

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

When Jesus comes in the clouds for this harvest, the Church comes with His, because where the body is the eagles will be gathered.

Not sure just what you are saying here.  I am very familiar with the last part of your sentence, but, your wording has made me curious concerning your interpretation of it.

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

These things are extremely difficult to understand as there are many obstacles. You will break one obstacle but other obstacles will convince you that these things don't make sense. In reality, if you accept the things we know that we can prove, the other obstacles will fall and you will see the complete picture. I would start with the provable fact that there is only one wrath of God and it is over when the kingdoms of the this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. (Revelation 11)

Concerning your last sentence, when you say "there is only one wrath of God" (something that you say a lot) are you meaning one day in which the wrath of God will take place, or, one period of time in which the wrath of God will place?

On 9/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

 

Do you have a lay out of your whole view anywhere on the forum?  Being able to review that would probably take care of many of the things I am wondering about that you say.

I have never done this. 

I would like to encourage you to do this.  For me, there was a time when I couldn't understand what some things were, till I came to an understanding of what they couldn't be.  You might say, this involved completing the prophetic puzzle.  I would also like to encourage you once again to really examine the opening posts of my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (remember that I gave you the link earlier, above).  Also, I would like to encourage you to look in on my website, (https://www.sevensealedbook.com/).  Hope you will look closely at my outline of The Revelation, especially of what I title, Details of the Period Heralded by the Seventh Trumpet.  Here is a quick link to that outline (https://www.sevensealedbook.com/copy-of-appendix-iv).

Got to go for tonight.  My eyes sure have gotten blurry...