Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[not an echo]

On 9/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

According to my understandings, there is much Scripture and logic to support that the last time the Church is mentioned, or seen in The Revelation, it is after the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 7:9-17, as part of the "great multitude" (vs. 9).

Yes the Church is in the great multitude and of course again in Rev 19 at the marriage supper.

Hey Zero Turn,

Well, a good night's sleep sure helps with the blurry eyes!  Again, this will be off topic as far as what I desired for the focus of this thread to be, but, since I let you draw me into this discussion , I want to be considerate of your replies with just a few other thoughts.

Concerning your above reply, I am in agreement with you, as far as what you have here worded.

On 9/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

  This is because they were just raptured with the opening of the 6th Seal---just before the beginning of the period of the Day of the Lord (Rev. 6:17;  I Thess. 4:16-5:4;  Matt. 24:29-31;  Acts 2:20).

No. That is the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured at the 6th seal when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened as the seals are the 70th week of Daniel about the people of Daniel.

As I read the account, in conjunction with other things we find in Scripture, the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (Rev. 7:4) are "sealed" at this time.  According to John's wording, it was "after these things" (Rev. 7:1) that there seems to have been a pause, or lull, during which the four angels "to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" (Rev. 7:2) are instructed thus:  "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3).  In accord with this, Jesus said the following in His Olivet Discourse, from Matthew 24:

 30  And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As it shapes up to me, "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" is what the people are seeing when they say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16).  Jews from every tribe will see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man" as well, and 12,000 from each tribe will be converted and sealed.  We see them referred to later, during the time of the sounding of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:4) and during the time of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 12:11 and 13:7).  According to the evidences, they will die as martyrs, but every one of them are seen in Heaven after this (Rev. 14:1-5).

As far as the Church, you have already indicated that you believe they are "in the great multitude" that John sees in Revelation 7:9-17.  I believe these are "the elect" that Jesus says the angels "shall gather together" (Matt. 24:31), those who will be "caught up" (I Thess. 4:16) by the angels.  This is the Church indeed, along with all who will be joined with their resurrection bodies at that time (I Cor. 15:51-52).

On 9/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

 

With the Church, we know that there is going to be a rapture.  But, with the rest of God's children, I'm thinking that God can work that however He wants. 

You should know this is an incorrect statement. If there is a first fruits offering that is acceptable to God, it is a guarantee of a harvest. Since we see the 144,000 from the twelve tribes before the throne of God in heaven, we can be sure that there will be a harvest the the 12 tribes across the earth. That is who is harvest from the earth at the 6th seal. The Church is in heaven before any seals are opened.

I understand that your belief concerning there being two raptures stems from what you say concerning the different harvests.  I'm just not able to see all the needed support for this.  For me, it is like trying to place a prophetic puzzle piece at a certain place because there are one or two sides that seem to fit, but, the other sides won't.  Kind of like a scenery puzzle where it looks like this piece with an eye on it goes with the squirrel, when actually, it goes with the elk on the other side of the puzzle.

On 9/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The Light said:

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here is who is raptured from the earth and is before the throne. They are Jews as they are singing the song of Moses. They are the 12 tribes across the earth.

I don't see this as a rapture passage at all, but as part of the exposition of the period of the 7th Trumpet.  Moreover, it all rings more of a judgment passage.  It looks to me more like Christ's reaping of the harvest of the wicked (vss. 14-16) and then of the angels gathering of this harvest into the winepress of the wrath of God (vss. 17-20).  Joel helps to clarify this by his prophecy in chapter 3...

 12  Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat:  for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

 13  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe:  come, get you down;  for the press is full, the fats overflow;  for their wickedness is great.

It is all symbolic of what will happen at the time of the Battle of Armageddon.

On 9/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The Light said:

When these people are cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God that is the same thing you see beginning to happen at the 6th seal, as the wrath of God begins when the 1st trumpet is blown.

Rev 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

With everything I am understanding you to say concerning this, it seems to me that the appearance of Christ with the opening of the 6th Seal would then have to be understood as also being His actual Second Advent.  Is this what you are thinking?  Kind of similar to what you have said concerning your understanding changing when you realized that there were two harvests, when I came to realize that Christ is going to make a sign appearance before His Second Advent, a lot of the other prophetic puzzle pieces that I had struggled with fell right into place.

On 9/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The Light said:

On 9/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, not an echo said:

About the time I was ready to push Submit Reply, I thought, "Wow, I had clean forgot that I wanted the focus of this thread to be on Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD."  See what you did Zero Turn.  You done gone and got me all sidetracked.  I'm gonna have to start watching you...

The Day of the Lord is near Cub Tractor. Don't be a foolish virgin and think that He is coming immediately after the tribulation for His Church. He is coming for His Church in a hour that you think not, IN A SECRET PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE.

Well, one thing I believe we will agree on Zero Turn is that we need to be ready, come what may.  I certainly believe that the beginning of the time of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment is near.  I believe that the Lamb can open the 6th Seal at any time, even today.  The way I see things, IF HE DOES, the 7th Seal can scripturally be opened this same day as well, meaning, the Day of the Lord has commenced.  It will not be a good thing to be left behind.  There will be 144,000 that will be left behind, but they will behold the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and be converted at this time.  Then, the world's stage will begin to be reset for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's 70 Weeks' prophecy.  Because of the 1/3 destruction that will happen with the sounding of the first four trumpets, and because what is in our hemisphere represents 1/3 of the earth (to within less than one percentage point), I can see what is on our side of the earth being at this time removed from the picture.  This will begin to effect the focus being brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE AGAIN---as it was during the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks.  The five month interval connected with the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:5, 10), will facilitate the rise of the Antichrist to power.  During the first part of the period of the 6th Trumpet, the population of the far, far east will be destroyed (Rev. 9:13-21), completing the stage reset.  IT IS AT THIS TIME that John sees the "little book open" (Rev. 10:2), which I submit is the little book of Daniel.  Then, with the first verse of chapter 11, we have the evidence we need that the Antichrist has confirmed his sham covenant with Israel, as it is him who is being worshiped in the temple (Matt. 24:15;  II Thess. 2:3-4).  Further confirmation of my interpretation(s) is that the first mention of the two 3-1/2 time frames of Daniel's 70th Week are seen in verses two and three.  At the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week, the 7th Trumpet will be sounded, at which time we see the reaction of those in Heaven and a brief overview of what this period will entail.  Chapters 12-20 expound this period.  This is reinforced beginning with chapter 12, as we see what the elders of 11:16-17 proclaimed, only with more details.  Note from chapter 12:

 10  And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, AND THE POWER OF HIS CHRIST:  for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 11  And they (the 144,000) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;  and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 12  THEREFORE REJOICE, YE HEAVENS, AND YE THAT DWELL IN THEM.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!  for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Later, we have the actual account of Christ's coming for the Battle of Armageddon and to set up His Millennial Kingdom (Rev. 19-20).  Something very interesting to me is that at Christ's Second Advent, if what is on our side of the earth has indeed been taken out of the picture, this means that "every eye" will simultaneously see Christ IN PERSON, and not because of the help of cell phones and TV's as some have begun to think.  As the sun at noontime over Israel can be seen by everyone simultaneously on that side of the earth, so will THE SON be seen by everyone simultaneously when He comes again over Israel as King of kings and Lord of lords.  Said another way, the only eyes left on the earth at that time with be those on Israel's side of the earth.  I go into more detail about this with the first thread I ever started on this forum.  I titled it The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  Of course, God can effect such a thing any way He desires.  Sometimes He just clues us in on what He desires.

Edited June 5, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 9/27/2021 at 6:01 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 9/26/2021 at 1:50 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

 

As far as what you say in your next to last paragraph, I'm supposing that you are saying this in reference to verses 1-11 from your 1. Time Period example.  According to my understanding, this was fulfilled in the days of the Assyrian/Babylonian invasions.

Concerning your last paragraph, I'm just curious if you see Rev. 19:11-21 and Rev. 6:12-17 as being of the same event.

Hi not an echo,

Good to discuss in such detail with you. I have referred back to your other thread. I printed it off and read it carefully, (I tend to skim read). Thus I see we do agree generally however a couple of specifics are different.

 

1. The Beginning of the Day of the Lord. (time period)

Joel 2: 1 - 20 The far northern army - the Russian Federation of Ez. 38 & 39. It is the beginning of the tribulation, within the Day of the Lord.

`For the Day of the Lord is coming, for it is at hand...` (Joel 2: 1)

That phrase, (as we know) is ONLY used for that appointed time of God`s wrath and ruling with His iron rod. 

Hello Marilyn,

Hey, I'm gonna get to focus on something more specific to the subject of my thread!  Knowing me, I'll still probably chase some rabbits, but I'll try to be careful.

Concerning your reference to "Joel 2:1 - 20" and what you indicate concerning it, I have several thoughts that I would like for you to consider.  First of all, in Joel's prophecy as a whole, I see a Day of the LORD that was looming in that day against the Israelites for their persistent disobedience and idolatry, then, I see a Day of the LORD which I believe is now looming against the world and will ultimately result in this world's destruction.  I believe the first Day of the LORD takes in Joel 1:1-2:27.  This concerned a time of judgment and chastening upon the Israelites for their continued disobedience to God and, as I see it, has been fulfilled.  If the Israelites had of repented, as they were told to do in 2:12-17, then God would have removed far off from them "the northern army" (2:20) and they would have realized God's pity and mercy upon them (2:18-27).  But, as we know, the following is representative of what they did, as recorded in II Chronicles 36:

 16  But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

Moreover, it continues here to say,

 17  Therefore He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age:  He gave them all into his hand.

 18  And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes;  all these he brought to Babylon.

 19  And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

 20  And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon;  where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

 21  To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths:  for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

I'm thinking, "Whew!"  The whole book of Lamentations is an account of Jeremiah's anguish and tears over what had befallen God's people, the land, and Jerusalem on account of their disobedience to God.  There, in chapter 1, Jeremiah says...

 12  Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by?  behold, and see if there be any sorrow liken unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me IN THE DAY OF HIS FIERCE ANGER.

In chapter 2 he says...

 22  Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER none escaped nor remained:  those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

In chapter 4 he says...

 11  THE LORD HATH ACCOMPLISHED HIS FURY;  HE HATH POURED OUT HIS FIERCE ANGER, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof.

This is the tenor of the whole book of Lamentations.

But, what about "the northern army" of which Joel spoke (2:20)?  Jeremiah's prophecies started out with warnings concerning this army.  Consider from chapter one:

 14  Then the LORD said unto me, OUT OF THE NORTH an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land.

 15  For, lo, I WILL CALL ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE KINGDOMS OF THE NORTH, saith the LORD;  and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah.

 16  And I WILL UTTER MY JUDGMENT AGAINST THEM touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken Me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands.

More familiar, but often forgotten is what Jeremiah prophesies of in chapter 25:

  8   Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts:  Because ye have not heard My words,

  9   Behold, I will send and take ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE NORTH, saith the LORD, and NEBUCHADREZZAR THE KING OF BABYLON, MY SERVANT, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

 10  Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

 11  And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;  and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon SEVENTY YEARS.

We know that this has been fulfilled.

As I have been typing out all these references, my mind was drawn to what is written in verse 9 above:  "and against all these nations round about..."  Even all the nations round about the land of Israel were severely impacted by God's use of the Babylonians to chasten His people Israel.  Still in Jeremiah, from chapter 46, consider...

  1   The word of the LORD which came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Gentiles;

  2   AGAINST EGYPT, against the army of Pharoah-necho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah.

Evidently Pharoah had advanced northward in hopes of helping to stay off Nebuchadrezzar's invasion of Egypt.  Then, notice what is said just a few verses later concerning what all was taking place...

 10  FOR THIS IS THE DAY OF THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS, A DAY OF VENGEANCE, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries:  and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood:  for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

And, how would the Egyptians fare?  This is pretty well summed up three verses later...

 13  The word of the LORD spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt.

So, back to Joel, I believe you must see why I come to some of the conclusions that I come to.  In Joel 1 it reads,

 15  Alas for the day!  for the DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND, and as a destruction FROM THE ALMIGHTY shall it come.

Then, in chapter 2:

  1   Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain:  let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:  for the DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, for it is NIGH AT HAND;

Then notice what is said about the army that would be used...

 11  And the LORD shall utter His voice before HIS ARMY:  for His camp is very great:  for he is strong that executeth His word:  for the DAY OF THE LORD IS GREAT AND VERY TERRIBLE;  and who can abide it?

What is this army?  Notice further in chapter 2, what was promised if God's people had of repented...

 25  And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, MY GREAT ARMY which I SENT among you.

This is the same army responsible for what Joel prophesied of at the first.  Consider afresh from chapter 1:

  6   FOR A NATION is come upon My land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

In my opening post of this thread, I drew attention to the following verse.  It comes also to my mind now.  From Jeremiah 50, consider again...

 17  Israel is a scattered sheep;  the lions have driven him away:  FIRST the king of Assyria had devoured him;  AND LAST this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon HATH BROKEN HIS BONES.

God used His chastening rod---the army of Assyria---on Israel, the northern kingdom.  Judah, the southern kingdom, should have took better heed.  Rather, they ended up doing even worse.  Then, God used His chastening rod---the army of Babylon---against them.

Now, there is another Day of the LORD spoken of by Joel.  IMHO, it too is looming.  Joel's account of it begins in 2:28 and continues through to the end of his prophecy.

On 9/27/2021 at 6:01 PM, Marilyn C said:

2.  Christ`s return, (specific day of the Lord).

Joel 3: 14 - 16 `Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake, (great earthquake).` 

Rev. 6: 12 - 17. `...there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth.....then the sky receded as a scroll.....the great Day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand?`

Rev. 19: 11 - 21. `Then I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and true, and in righteousness He judges and makes war......he strikes the nations....the rest (world`s armies) were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.` 

Well Marilyn, my eyes are starting to get blurry again!  But, before I sign off for the night, it looks like by your statement above and the references you use that you see Christ's appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal as being His actual Second Advent.  Am I understanding you correctly?

On 9/27/2021 at 6:01 PM, Marilyn C said:

3. The 7 Sealed Scroll given to Christ, the executor of God`s will, gives the overview of which nations, and peoples will be judged and when - Beginning, Middle and End. Knowing those positions we can then place all the events during the trib.

Not for sure how you see everything about "The 7 Sealed Scroll" but basically, I see the seals on the outside of it as representing what will take place before it is opened.  Said another way, I see the seals of this scroll or book as representing what will happen leading up to whatever is contained within it.  Seems like to me that my concept of this is about as simple and basic as it can get.  Interestingly, one has to look long and hard to find anyone else expressing it like this.  My mind goes to what we would think if we had a chest before us that was locked with seven padlocks.  I don't know of anyone that would suppose that the treasure (or whatever happens to be in the chest) can be gotten to until the last lock is removed.  It has long been a curious thing for me that this simple concept is so foreign to discussions that are had concerning it.

Edited June 8, 2023 by not an echo

[The Light]

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your above reply, I am in agreement with you, as far as what you have here worded.

As I read the account, in conjunction with other things we find in Scripture, the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (Rev. 7:4) are "sealed" at this time.  According to John's wording, it was "after these things"

Just another obstacle that you must get past.

John had a vision on which he described what occurs during the 1st 6 seals. Then John says "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth"

Like I told you before. You need logic to get past the obstacles within Revelation. What if John had said: "And after these things, I had another vision, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth,

I'm not just making things up here. I proved to you earlier, with logic, that it HAS to be another vision, because we can prove that the 144,000 have to be sealed before the 6th seal by what I posted earlier.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

(Rev. 7:1) that there seems to have been a pause, or lull, during which the four angels "to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" (Rev. 7:2) are instructed thus:  "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3). 

And I showed you earlier that this is an obstacle that you must get past. According to this verse, it makes you think that the 144,000 are sealed so they can go through the wrath of God. In fact, they do not go through the wrath of God as they are not on the earth when the wrath of God occurs. 

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

In accord with this, Jesus said the following in His Olivet Discourse, from Matthew 24:

 30  And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As it shapes up to me, "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" is what the people are seeing when they say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16). 

This is EXACTLY correct. You need to take this information and build off of it.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Jews from every tribe will see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man" as well, and 12,000 from each tribe will be converted and sealed.

Jews from every tribe will see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man" and they will be raptured FROM THE EARTH when Jesus appears in the clouds. This is the second harvest. The 12,000 from each tribe, will already be in heaven as we can see them as 1st fruits in Rev 14. First fruits are presented to the throne BEFORE the harvest. It's just plain logic.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

  We see them referred to later, during the time of the sounding of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:4)

No. You do not see them at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. It's an obstacle to get past. Here's what you see at the 5th trumpet.

Rev 9

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

So who is it (THAT ARE ON EARTH AT THIS TIME) that have the seal of God on their foreheads. The only ones on earth that can possibly have the seal of God on their foreheads this time have to be those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection.

This has to be the case, because we see the great multitude in Rev 7 and we see those that came out of the great tribulation in heaven also. This harvest CANNOT occur until the first fruits of the harvest are acceptable to the Lord and are presented to the throne which we see in Rev 14. The 144,000 are before the throne in Rev 14 and the harvest is in Rev 7. That should tell you that the events of Rev 13 and 14 occur during the 6 seals and not after. We can further prove that by the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our God at the 7th trumpet. Wrath is over, and Jesus has returned to set up his kingdom on earth, so what you see in Rev 13 and 14 occurs before wrath in the 6 seals.

 

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

and during the time of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 12:11 and 13:7).  According to the evidences, they will die as martyrs, but every one of them are seen in Heaven after this (Rev. 14:1-5).

Again, logic. The harvest from the earth in Rev 7 CANNOT occur before the 1st fruits are found acceptable which they are in Rev 14. The events of Rev 13 and 14 occur during the 6 seals.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

As far as the Church, you have already indicated that you believe they are "in the great multitude" that John sees in Revelation 7:9-17.  I believe these are "the elect" that Jesus says the angels "shall gather together" (Matt. 24:31), those who will be "caught up" (I Thess. 4:16) by the angels.  This is the Church indeed, along with all who will be joined with their resurrection bodies at that time (I Cor. 15:51-52).

The gathering is from HEAVEN AND EARTH.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who is gathered from the earth. The twelve tribes are gathered from the earth. (Not those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection) We know God is talking to the Jews in Matt 24 as they are the ones that go through the great tribulation. 

The Church is in heaven and is gathered from heaven and goes with the Lord in the clouds as where the body is the eagles are gathered.

Here is the Church. They are the kings and priest taken from every tribe. The mostly Gentile Church.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

I understand that your belief concerning there being two raptures stems from what you say concerning the different harvests.  I'm just not able to see all the needed support for this.

Understandable. But common logic should tell you that if Jesus says that He is coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION and then turns around and tells you that He is coming when you think not, He must be coming more than once. Once for the mostly Gentile Church, and once when He keeps His promise to His Chosen. Part of these Jews cannot even see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

  For me, it is like trying to place a prophetic puzzle piece at a certain place because there are one or two sides that seem to fit, but, the other sides won't.  Kind of like a scenery puzzle where it looks like this piece with an eye on it goes with the squirrel, when actually, it goes with the elk on the other side of the puzzle.

Exactly. Which is why I posted this in BOLD in an earlier post.

These things are extremely difficult to understand as there are many obstacles. You will break one obstacle but other obstacles will convince you that these things don't make sense. In reality, if you accept the things we know that we can prove, the other obstacles will fall and you will see the complete picture. I would start with the provable fact that there is only one wrath of God and it is over when the kingdoms of the this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. (Revelation 11)

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

I don't see this as a rapture passage at all, but as part of the exposition of the period of the 7th Trumpet.  Moreover, it all rings more of a judgment passage.  It looks to me more like Christ's reaping of the harvest of the wicked (vss. 14-16) and then of the angels gathering of this harvest into the winepress of the wrath of God (vss. 17-20).  Joel helps to clarify this by his prophecy in chapter 3...

 12  Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat:  for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

 13  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe:  come, get you down;  for the press is full, the fats overflow;  for their wickedness is great.

It is all symbolic of what will happen at the time of the Battle of Armageddon.

Exactly. It is exactly what will happen in Armageddon. So what happens at Armageddon? Jesus returns with His armies and destroys the armies with His Word. Then He puts His feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up his kingdom on earth.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Jesus has already returned to the earth with His armies and set up His kingdom. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. The reason we don't know clearly that Jesus has returned is because we are not given all the information.

Rev 10

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

With everything I am understanding you to say concerning this, it seems to me that the appearance of Christ with the opening of the 6th Seal would then have to be understood as also being His actual Second Coming.  Is this what you are thinking?  Kind of similar to what you have said concerning your understanding changing when you realized that there were two harvests, when I came to realize that Christ is going to make a sign appearance before His Second coming, a lot of the other prophetic puzzle pieces that I had struggled with fell right into place.

It is in fact His second coming, when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. However, He will come again with His armies from heaven and set up His kingdom on earth....when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord. The event when Jesus comes with His armies and sets up His kingdom is usually considered His second coming, but all eyes will see His at His coming at the 6th seal.

Of course He comes earlier for His Church in the secret pretribulation (pre 70th week) rapture.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Well, one thing I believe we will agree on Zero Turn is that we need to be ready, come what may.  I certainly believe that the Day of the Lord is near.  I believe that the Lamb can open the 6th Seal at any time, even today.  The way I see things, IF HE DOES, the 7th Seal can scripturally be opened this same day as well, meaning, the Day of the Lord has commenced.  It will not be a good thing to be left behind. 

The Lord can come for His Church at any time but the Day of the Lord cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. We are certainly very, very, close to the coming of the Lord for His Church and the strong delusion that will be given to those who have rejected Him.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

There will be 144,000 that will be left behind, but they will behold the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and be converted at this time. 

No. The Church will be gone before the seals are opened. The 144,000 will be sealed sometime after the 1st seal is opened, but way before the 6th seal. They have to be in heaven as the first fruits before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. That is the only way there can be a harvest.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Then, the world's stage will begin to be reset for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy. 

No. The last week begins with the opening of the seals. When people see the sign of the son of man, the second harvest will occur and the wrath of God will begin. The great tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

The Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. The 12 tribes will be going to heaven after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Those that flee in the nation of Israel to a place of protection will of course see Jesus in the clouds at the 6th seal but will not be taken to heaven as they were not believers prior to His coming. Only those that flee to a place of protection and non believers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Because of the 1/3 destruction that will happen with the sounding of the first four trumpets, and because what is in our hemisphere represents 1/3 of the earth (to within less than one percentage point), I can see what is on our side of the earth being removed from the picture.  This will begin to effect the focus being brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE AGAIN---as it was during the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks.  The five month interval connected with the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:5, 10), will facilitate the rise of the Antichrist to power.

The events of the 5th trumpet occur during the wrath of God. The events of the great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God begins. The 7th king will give His power to the Antichrist, the eighth king before the great tribulation begins.

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

 At the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week, the 7th Trumpet will be sounded,

 

Brother, I used to think the same thing. Lets prove it wrong.

How can the 7th trumpet be the middle of the the 70th week if the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet? How can the wrath of God not be over at the 7 trumpet if Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.(the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

We can further prove the wrath of God is over because the dead are judged and rewards are given.

Rev 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We have further proof that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet with this verse

Rev 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Use basic logic. If the great tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, it is the end of the age. It is then that the wrath of God begins. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Edited September 29, 2021 by The Light

[Keras]

Revelation, the Book dictated to John by Jesus, does give a proper sequence of the end times events. With some asides of more details.
We are given an overview from God's perspective of 7 types of Church's. Note that each one has some Overcomers in them. The true, faithful people of God, His Israelites by faith. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16
Jesus is the Seed, the real Israel and we; His Christian followers are the inheritors of all the promises of God to Israel. Romans 8:16-18

Jesus opened the Seals, 1 to 5 and we have experienced all the wars, famines and plagues possible, without wiping out humankind completely. The 5th Seal proves it is open, by the souls of all the martyrs since Stephen, kept under the heavenly Altar.
But as the cosmic events described in the Sixth Seal, have not occurred yet, then this will be the next prophesied event. Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61, in the second verse, before:.... and a day of the vengeance of our Lord.

This world changing disaster, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamic peoples, will set the stage for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
All as described in Revelation and throughout the Bible, leading up to the 1000 year reign of King Jesus and then the final Judgement of everyone and then Eternity.

Those found worthy will receive immortality, but the outcome for those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; is annihilation.

[not an echo]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your above reply, I am in agreement with you, as far as what you have here worded.

As I read the account, in conjunction with other things we find in Scripture, the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (Rev. 7:4) are "sealed" at this time.  According to John's wording, it was "after these things"

Just another obstacle that you must get past.

John had a vision on which he described what occurs during the 1st 6 seals. Then John says "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth"

Like I told you before. You need logic to get past the obstacles within Revelation. What if John had said: "And after these things, I had another vision, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth,

I'm not just making things up here. I proved to you earlier, with logic, that it HAS to be another vision, because we can prove that the 144,000 have to be sealed before the 6th seal by what I posted earlier.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

(Rev. 7:1) that there seems to have been a pause, or lull, during which the four angels "to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" (Rev. 7:2) are instructed thus:  "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3). 

And I showed you earlier that this is an obstacle that you must get past. According to this verse, it makes you think that the 144,000 are sealed so they can go through the wrath of God. In fact, they do not go through the wrath of God as they are not on the earth when the wrath of God occurs. 

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

In accord with this, Jesus said the following in His Olivet Discourse, from Matthew 24:

 30  And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As it shapes up to me, "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" is what the people are seeing when they say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16). 

This is EXACTLY correct. You need to take this information and build off of it.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

Jews from every tribe will see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man" as well, and 12,000 from each tribe will be converted and sealed.

Jews from every tribe will see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man" and they will be raptured FROM THE EARTH when Jesus appears in the clouds. This is the second harvest. The 12,000 from each tribe, will already be in heaven as we can see them as 1st fruits in Rev 14. First fruits are presented to the throne BEFORE the harvest. It's just plain logic.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

  We see them referred to later, during the time of the sounding of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:4)

No. You do not see them at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. It's an obstacle to get past. Here's what you see at the 5th trumpet.

Rev 9

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

So who is it (THAT ARE ON EARTH AT THIS TIME) that have the seal of God on their foreheads. The only ones on earth that can possibly have the seal of God on their foreheads this time have to be those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection.

This has to be the case, because we see the great multitude in Rev 7 and we see those that came out of the great tribulation in heaven also. This harvest CANNOT occur until the first fruits of the harvest are acceptable to the Lord and are presented to the throne which we see in Rev 14. The 144,000 are before the throne in Rev 14 and the harvest is in Rev 7. That should tell you that the events of Rev 13 and 14 occur during the 6 seals and not after. We can further prove that by the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our God at the 7th trumpet. Wrath is over, and Jesus has returned to set up his kingdom on earth, so what you see in Rev 13 and 14 occurs before wrath in the 6 seals.

 

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

and during the time of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 12:11 and 13:7).  According to the evidences, they will die as martyrs, but every one of them are seen in Heaven after this (Rev. 14:1-5).

Again, logic. The harvest from the earth in Rev 7 CANNOT occur before the 1st fruits are found acceptable which they are in Rev 14. The events of Rev 13 and 14 occur during the 6 seals.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

As far as the Church, you have already indicated that you believe they are "in the great multitude" that John sees in Revelation 7:9-17.  I believe these are "the elect" that Jesus says the angels "shall gather together" (Matt. 24:31), those who will be "caught up" (I Thess. 4:16) by the angels.  This is the Church indeed, along with all who will be joined with their resurrection bodies at that time (I Cor. 15:51-52).

The gathering is from HEAVEN AND EARTH.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who is gathered from the earth. The twelve tribes are gathered from the earth. (Not those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection) We know God is talking to the Jews in Matt 24 as they are the ones that go through the great tribulation. 

The Church is in heaven and is gathered from heaven and goes with the Lord in the clouds as where the body is the eagles are gathered.

Here is the Church. They are the kings and priest taken from every tribe. The mostly Gentile Church.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

I understand that your belief concerning there being two raptures stems from what you say concerning the different harvests.  I'm just not able to see all the needed support for this.

Understandable. But common logic should tell you that if Jesus says that He is coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION and then turns around and tells you that He is coming when you think not, He must be coming more than once. Once for the mostly Gentile Church, and once when He keeps His promise to His Chosen. Part of these Jews cannot even see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

  For me, it is like trying to place a prophetic puzzle piece at a certain place because there are one or two sides that seem to fit, but, the other sides won't.  Kind of like a scenery puzzle where it looks like this piece with an eye on it goes with the squirrel, when actually, it goes with the elk on the other side of the puzzle.

Exactly. Which is why I posted this in BOLD in an earlier post.

These things are extremely difficult to understand as there are many obstacles. You will break one obstacle but other obstacles will convince you that these things don't make sense. In reality, if you accept the things we know that we can prove, the other obstacles will fall and you will see the complete picture. I would start with the provable fact that there is only one wrath of God and it is over when the kingdoms of the this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. (Revelation 11)

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

I don't see this as a rapture passage at all, but as part of the exposition of the period of the 7th Trumpet.  Moreover, it all rings more of a judgment passage.  It looks to me more like Christ's reaping of the harvest of the wicked (vss. 14-16) and then of the angels gathering of this harvest into the winepress of the wrath of God (vss. 17-20).  Joel helps to clarify this by his prophecy in chapter 3...

 12  Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat:  for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

 13  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe:  come, get you down;  for the press is full, the fats overflow;  for their wickedness is great.

It is all symbolic of what will happen at the time of the Battle of Armageddon.

Exactly. It is exactly what will happen in Armageddon. So what happens at Armageddon? Jesus returns with His armies and destroys the armies with His Word. Then He puts His feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up his kingdom on earth.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Jesus has already returned to the earth with His armies and set up His kingdom. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. The reason we don't know clearly that Jesus has returned is because we are not given all the information.

Rev 10

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

With everything I am understanding you to say concerning this, it seems to me that the appearance of Christ with the opening of the 6th Seal would then have to be understood as also being His actual Second Coming.  Is this what you are thinking?  Kind of similar to what you have said concerning your understanding changing when you realized that there were two harvests, when I came to realize that Christ is going to make a sign appearance before His Second coming, a lot of the other prophetic puzzle pieces that I had struggled with fell right into place.

It is in fact His second coming, when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. However, He will come again with His armies from heaven and set up His kingdom on earth....when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord. The event when Jesus comes with His armies and sets up His kingdom is usually considered His second coming, but all eyes will see His at His coming at the 6th seal.

Of course He comes earlier for His Church in the secret pretribulation (pre 70th week) rapture.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

Well, one thing I believe we will agree on Zero Turn is that we need to be ready, come what may.  I certainly believe that the Day of the Lord is near.  I believe that the Lamb can open the 6th Seal at any time, even today.  The way I see things, IF HE DOES, the 7th Seal can scripturally be opened this same day as well, meaning, the Day of the Lord has commenced.  It will not be a good thing to be left behind. 

The Lord can come for His Church at any time but the Day of the Lord cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. We are certainly very, very, close to the coming of the Lord for His Church and the strong delusion that will be given to those who have rejected Him.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

 

There will be 144,000 that will be left behind, but they will behold the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and be converted at this time. 

No. The Church will be gone before the seals are opened. The 144,000 will be sealed sometime after the 1st seal is opened, but way before the 6th seal. They have to be in heaven as the first fruits before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. That is the only way there can be a harvest.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

 

Then, the world's stage will begin to be reset for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy. 

No. The last week begins with the opening of the seals. When people see the sign of the son of man, the second harvest will occur and the wrath of God will begin. The great tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

The Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. The 12 tribes will be going to heaven after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Those that flee in the nation of Israel to a place of protection will of course see Jesus in the clouds at the 6th seal but will not be taken to heaven as they were not believers prior to His coming. Only those that flee to a place of protection and non believers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

Because of the 1/3 destruction that will happen with the sounding of the first four trumpets, and because what is in our hemisphere represents 1/3 of the earth (to within less than one percentage point), I can see what is on our side of the earth being removed from the picture.  This will begin to effect the focus being brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE AGAIN---as it was during the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks.  The five month interval connected with the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:5, 10), will facilitate the rise of the Antichrist to power.

The events of the 5th trumpet occur during the wrath of God. The events of the great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God begins. The 7th king will give His power to the Antichrist, the eighth king before the great tribulation begins.

On 9/28/2021 at 4:12 PM, not an echo said:

 At the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week, the 7th Trumpet will be sounded,

 

Brother, I used to think the same thing. Lets prove it wrong.

How can the 7th trumpet be the middle of the the 70th week if the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet? How can the wrath of God not be over at the 7 trumpet if Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.(the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

We can further prove the wrath of God is over because the dead are judged and rewards are given.

Rev 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We have further proof that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet with this verse

Rev 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Use basic logic. If the great tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, it is the end of the age. It is then that the wrath of God begins. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Hello Zero Turn,

You said earlier that you had never gave a layout of your whole view anywhere on the forum.  Have you ever worked up a thread that focuses more fully on just the things that you have been putting forth to me?  If so, I think it would maybe be a help to me if I could read through it.  If not, I guess I'm wondering why not?

For me, I am really trying to get a good handle on how everything you are saying will really come together.  It's like, you are trying to show me how a few pieces will come together over here on the right side of the puzzle and then how some pieces will come together over on the other side of the puzzle and then how there are all these obstacles and difficulties, but these certain pieces will still fit together in this lower middle section of the puzzle.  I can see how some of what you are saying might come together over here and over there, but I feel that I am still a long way from seeing how it all will come together.  As a brother in Christ, I hope you won't feel too hard at me.  I am trying.  As a matter of fact, I ever continue to believe that in the discussions that I have with others in the family of God, there are understandings that I have yet to come to that will shed even more light on the different view that I already have.  Hey, and I am perfectly alright with having to reword something or change something that needs to be changed.  Presently, I am not aware of anything in Scripture that my understanding is in conflict with.  But, if I am ever made aware of something, I definitely will make the necessary changes so that it will align with Scripture.  A common prayer of mine is, "Lord, do whatever You have to do to get me to see whatever it is that You would like for me to see that I don't yet see!"

Concerning your above post, I have a lot of lingering questions, but I think your answers to these might help me the most for now:

1. What Scripture(s) would you say most supports what you are believing about the harvests as they connect with your view of there being two raptures?
2. It seems to me that your take on the Day of the Lord would mean that it is a one day event.  Is this what you are believing?
3. You say "The events of Rev 13 and 14 occur during the 6 Seals."  What are you believing about the 7th Seal and what do you believe happens after it is opened?
4. You say, "The gathering is from HEAVEN and EARTH."  Based on the Mark 13:27 reference that you point to concerning this, why would Jesus have to SEND His angels to gather anyone from Heaven?
5. You maintain that "the wrath of God is over at the 7th Trumpet."  If so, at what time do you think that the seven vials of the wrath of God will be poured out?

[The Light]

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Hello Zero Turn,

You said earlier that you had never gave a layout of your whole view anywhere on the forum.  Have you ever worked up a thread that focuses more fully on just the things that you have been putting forth to me?  If so, I think it would maybe be a help to me if I could read through it.  If not, I guess I'm wondering why not?

For me, I am really trying to get a good handle on how everything you are saying will really come together.  It's like, you are trying to show me how a few pieces will come together over here on the right side of the puzzle and then how some pieces will come together over on the other side of the puzzle and then how there are all these obstacles and difficulties, but these certain pieces will still fit together in this lower middle section of the puzzle.  I can see how some of what you are saying might come together over here and over there, but I feel that I am still a long way from seeing how it all will come together.  As a brother in Christ, I hope you won't feel too hard at me.  I am trying.  As a matter of fact, I ever continue to believe that in the discussions that I have with others in the family of God, there are understandings that I have yet to come to that will shed even more light on the different view that I already have.  Hey, and I am perfectly alright with having to reword something or change something that needs to be changed.  Presently, I am not aware of anything in Scripture that my understanding is in conflict with.  But, if I am ever made aware of something, I definitely will make the necessary changes so that it will align with Scripture.  A common prayer of mine is, "Lord, do whatever You have to do to get me to see whatever it is that You would like for me to see that I don't yet see!"

It's really hard for me to communicate what the scripture says as there is so much raw logic required to get past things that make understanding it very difficult. What I have found is the beauty of scripture is if you want to understand it, don't make incorrect conclusion that cause further errors. Take scripture for EXACTLY what it says and it is far easier to draw the correct conclusion. Example. The 144,000 are 12000 from each tribe. They do not represent the Church. They are exactly what the Word says they are.

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your above post, I have a lot of lingering questions, but I think your answers to these might help me the most for now:

1. What Scripture(s) would you say most supports what you are believing about the harvests as they connect with your view of there being two raptures?

As I have already posted. This is the scripture that really got my attention.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

I realized that the fig tree must have two harvests and when I checked the internet, it was so. I also realized that God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time....meaning that God saw the fathers as the first fruits of the 1st harvest but they served other God's so they would not be the first harvest.

Here's another good group of verses.

Luke 17

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

We are told that in His day it will be like lightning that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven

According to the Word the coming of the son of man is like lightning from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven. Why are the disciples told that they will desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS of the son of man. There must be more than one day.

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

1. It seems to me that your take on the Day of the Lord would mean that it is a one day event.  Is this what you are believing?

No, I do not think it is one day. I think the coming of Jesus is the end of the age and then......

2 Pet 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

1. You say "The events of Rev 13 and 14 occur during the 6 Seals."  What are you believing about the 7th Seal and what do you believe happens after it is opened?

I believe at the 7th seal, just what it says. That there is silence in heaven for about a half an hour and then the trumpets of God wrath begin with the blowing of the 1st trumpet.

Rev 8

 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

1. You say, "The gathering is from HEAVEN and EARTH."  Based on the Mark 13:27 reference that you point to concerning this, why would Jesus have to SEND His angels to gather anyone from Heaven?

He does not have to send His angels, that's just what He tells us is going to happen. I believe what the Word says. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. They will follow the Lord to the clouds for the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth.

I believe that where the body is the eagles will be gathered, because that's what the Word says.

I believe that all eyes will see the coming of the Lord at the gathering or the rapture from heaven and earth.

 

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

1. You maintain that "the wrath of God is over at the 7th Trumpet."  If so, at what time do you think that the seven vials of the wrath of God will be poured out?

The vials of God's wrath will be poured in the same timeframe as the trumpets. They are just a different view of things that happen during the wrath of God.

John get a vision of what happens during the trumpets of God's wrath. Then he gets a different view of things that happen in God's wrath when he gets the vision of the vials being poured out. 

Think of it as a guy observing a terrible thunderstorm. His report may sound like this. "And there was a huge, black, ominous cloud from which a destructive tornado appeared. The tornado ripped a path through the trees and nothing could hold up to it. Then you get another guy a couple of miles away with a different view of the same storm. He reports: I was overcome by the darkness and the wind was so strong that there were sheep literally flying through the air. Nothing could stand against the force of the wind.

This is what you are seeing with the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. There is only one wrath and the visions that John has are a vision of what happens during the trumpets and a different vision of what happens in the vials. It all happens in God's one single wrath. 

For example take a look at the end of the trumpets. This matches up with what happens during the vials. But these things do not need to match up perfectly as it is a different vision of the same timeframe.

Rev 11

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:17,18,21

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

[Marilyn C]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:20 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

Hey, I'm gonna get to focus on something more specific to the subject of my thread!  Knowing me, I'll still probably chase some rabbits, but I'll try to be careful.

Concerning your reference to Joel 2:1 - 20 and what you indicate concerning it, I have several thoughts that I would like for you to consider.  First of all, in Joel's prophecy as a whole, I see a Day of the LORD that was looming in that day against the Israelites for their persistent disobedience and idolatry, then,

 

Hi not an echo,

Some really good study of scripture there bro. Well done. 

Now just a couple of points. 

1. Yes I agree that God did send the Assyrian and Babylonians against Israel in the past, and quite a lot of detail there as you have presented. God is so patient, yet will chastise as He said and did for people to repent. Israel in this occasion.

However notice that in Joel, the Day of the LORD is specific with regards to the `far northern` army. And that part of the globe has only one nation - Russia. 

2. Also see that this Russian Federation does NOT attack Jerusalem, while the Assyrians and Babylon did. Important details there.

 

[Marilyn C]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:20 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

Well Marilyn, my eyes are starting to get blurry again!  But, before I sign off for the night, it looks like by your statement above and the references you use that you see Christ's appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal as being His actual Second Coming.  Am I understanding you correctly?

Not for sure how you see everything about "The 7 Sealed Scroll" but basically, I see the seals on the outside of it as representing what will take place before it is opened.  Said another way, I see the seals of this scroll or book as representing what will happen leading up to whatever is contained within it.  Seems like to me that my concept of this is about as simple and basic as it can get.  Interestingly, one has to look long and hard to find anyone else expressing it like this.  My mind goes to what we would think if we had a chest before us that was locked with seven padlocks.  I don't know of anyone that would suppose that the treasure (or whatever happens to be in the chest) can be gotten to until the last lock is removed.  It has long been a curious thing for me that this simple concept is so foreign to discussions that are had concerning it.

Hi not an echo,

The book of Revelation is about the Father revealing His Son as He is known in the heavenly realm. There are 4 visions, and the last 3, each go to the end of the trib. Unless you start from Christ and what He is doing then you will end up a muddle.

For eg. The sun, moon, stars, all people hiding saying it is the great day of the wrath of God.... Which matches all other scriptures to do with Christ`s coming.

However if you think that is the beginning of the trib, then it seems people go back to living, marrying and giving in marriage etc, and following the A/C. 

That picture is NOT realistic nor biblical. You may need to look at the point again.

[not an echo]

On 9/29/2021 at 11:49 PM, The Light said:

On 9/29/2021 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

1. You maintain that "the wrath of God is over at the 7th Trumpet."  If so, at what time do you think that the seven vials of the wrath of God will be poured out?

The vials of God's wrath will be poured in the same timeframe as the trumpets. They are just a different view of things that happen during the wrath of God.

Before endeavoring to get back on topic, I'm wondering how you reconcile the lead-in verse for the sounding of the 7th Trumpet with your belief that "the wrath of God is over at the 7th Trumpet."  I see what you say concerning "The vials of God's wrath will be poured in the same timeframe as the trumpets."  But, because of what you have said about the 7th Trumpet, I'm taking it that you believe the vials will be poured out during the timeframe of the first six trumpets.  So, back to what I'm wondering about, consider afresh from Revelation 11:

 14  The second woe is past;  and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

If God's wrath is over with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, what is the nature of the third woe that "cometh quickly"?

 

 

[not an echo]

On 9/30/2021 at 1:47 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 9/29/2021 at 12:50 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

Hey, I'm gonna get to focus on something more specific to the subject of my thread!  Knowing me, I'll still probably chase some rabbits, but I'll try to be careful.

Concerning your reference to Joel 2:1 - 20 and what you indicate concerning it, I have several thoughts that I would like for you to consider.  First of all, in Joel's prophecy as a whole, I see a Day of the LORD that was looming in that day against the Israelites for their persistent disobedience and idolatry, then,

 

Hi not an echo,

Some really good study of scripture there bro. Well done. 

Now just a couple of points. 

1. Yes I agree that God did send the Assyrian and Babylonians against Israel in the past, and quite a lot of detail there as you have presented. God is so patient, yet will chastise as He said and did for people to repent. Israel in this occasion.

However notice that in Joel, the Day of the LORD is specific with regards to the `far northern` army. And that part of the globe has only one nation - Russia. 

Hello Marilyn,

According to what all you are saying about this, how do you reconcile that "the northern army" (Joel 2:20) is referred to by God as "MY great army which I sent among you" (Joel 2:25)?