Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

17 Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

I don't see 'Day of the Lord' in Jeremiah 50.

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Moreover, if you acknowledge that what came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. were DOTL judgments, it's a pretty steep order to get around the "at hand" of Joel 1:15 and the "nigh at hand" of Joel 2:1.

Since Joel lived in the 8 century you would describe 'near' as 'in the same century'? But then what about 6th century fulfillment? Is that 'near'? So to you 'near' is time? Is that the only relationship of the idea of 'near' to prophetic fulfillment?

In Joel 1:15 and 2:1 the word used is qarob. This term is a near cousin to qarab. Both have nearly the same idea and it's one of relationship and not time. The idea here is close, and it's close in terms of the ancillary events preceding the DOTL.

This fulfills the requirement of unforced interpretation. We don't have to find points in time where we can press the prophecy into a place it doesn't fit. 

I don't find a time requirement nearly as accurate as a relationship requirement. In fact you use near to find a 6th century fulfillment some 170 to 200 years in the future. Is that near to the utterance? Is that near to the audience? 

In Joel 2:1-11 the DOTL as Joel describes it is only near when the army as described is on the loose. So just from normal reading we see the day is 'near' in relationship to the army, not time. 

 

 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, I don't believe we should forget the time.  I mean, in our day, there has come to be some pretty big differences between a war fought today and a war fought 135 years ago.  This wasn't the case in that day.  What happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. was such that the news concerning the former could have essentially served as the news concerning the latter---with only the names being changed.

This doesn't prove anything. It's a red herring. I'm still waiting for the proof Joel 1-2:27 was fulfilled in every word, as written, full, final and complete, with every event manifest and every condition met in close proximity to the DOTL.

This is required of the prophet by the Most High or the prophet is false and we can disregard his every word. 

All I hear is; "I believe." That only means you have convinced yourself and is no proof of anything else.

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This doesn't prove anything. It's a red herring. I'm still waiting for the proof Joel 1-2:27 was fulfilled in every word, as written, full, final and complete, with every event manifest and every condition met in close proximity to the DOTL.

This is required of the prophet by the Most High or the prophet is false and we can disregard his every word. 

All I hear is; "I believe." That only means you have convinced yourself and is no proof of anything else.

Haven’t read the whole thread but what we seem to be seeing in Joel 2 is a prophesying to Israel of both the joy and blessings of the gospel as well as the judgment for rejecting it.  The gospel came with the advent of the Messiah/Christ, and the outpouring of the Spirit.....and the judgment part came in 70 AD though the scriptures do not record that.   Acts 2 clearly confirms the fulfillment of Joel 2 and directly references (pretty much word for word) both the blessings of knowing Christ, as well as the judgment that was soon to come upon Israel/Jerusalem for rejecting Him.  (Those Jews who received Christ escaped the judgment, God spared them....that is well known in church history.)  Hope that helps with this subject.

Act 2:16-21

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Joe 2:28-32

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

But also want to add that I believe the judgment of Israel is a pattern also for the judgment of the world, at the second coming of Christ.  Once again those who know Jesus will escape and be spared the wrath of God, while those who reject Him will be judged.

It's just important that we be grounded in understanding how these things were already fulfilled to Israel.  Unbelieving Jews are still looking for an earthly kingdom age of Messiah....when in fact that also has already been fulfilled, in the gospel.  The Messiah/Jesus is ruling and reigning now. (The kingdom is within us and is by FAITH, not by sight.)

Edited March 8, 2022 by Heleadethme

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

This is interesting to me. So we see this in Acts 2:

"Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,c 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”"

So they are speaking in tongues and are assumed to be drunk. Which is really odd considering large amounts of wine usually don't give people an ability to speak a new language.

Then Peter brings up Joel 2:28-32 and nothing in that passage is about speaking in tongues. But I get that it's a pouring out of the Spirit and I think that out pouring of the Spirit is to that which Peter referred, not a fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32.

Then the below is also missing from the fulfillment. 

I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

20The sun will be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.

21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord

will be saved.’e

Maybe I'm wrong and blood and fire and smoke and the moon turned to blood did occur but I haven't seen where it's recorded it did. I have not seen it in the NT nor does any historian I know of claim it happened.

21 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

It's just important that we be grounded in understanding how these things were already fulfilled to Israel.  Unbelieving Jews are still looking for an earthly kingdom age of Messiah....when in fact that also has already been fulfilled, in the gospel.  The Messiah/Jesus is ruling and reigning now. (The kingdom is within us and is by FAITH, not by sight.)

I'd like to see evidence of Zech 14:16-21.  And Rev 20:5-6. And Rev 21. 

And I think I'll stay grounded in listening to Jesus. The understanding He provides is all I need.

[Heleadethme]

The writer of Acts certainly referenced the blood, fire, smoke, moon part of Joel 2 as being part of what was being fulfilled.  There's no question about that....written in ink.  He wouldn't have quoted that part otherwise.

But what do those things mean?  It's illuminating to do word searches, with God's help.   Blood...shedding of blood, Christ's blood but also could be referencing the blood soon to be shed in judgment of Jerusalem/Israel.  Fire...Holy Spirit and also judgment.  Smoke...presence of God and also judgment or presence of God IN judgment.  Blood moon....Jesus Christ crucified, His blood shed.  (Why the priests looked and watched for new moon, needing two witnesses - Law and Prophets - because the new moon represented the appearing/coming of Messiah who reflected the glory of God - sun - having left His own glory behind in heaven when He came to earth.) 

Sun turned to darkness is God turning His face away = judgment.  Darkness also happened at the crucifixion, Matt 27:45.

Earthquake - also associated with the crucifixion and resurrection, Matt 27:54.  Mount of Olives represents Jesus when He walked the earth (His feet)...Gethsemane...His body broken, symbolically rent in two like the sacrifices of Abraham that the clay pot passed through.  The veil in the Temple rent in two making a way for the faithful to enter the Holy of Holies.  When we come to Christ and follow Him we are walking through the valley of the Mount of Olives rent in two....we are like olives being crushed like Jesus was in order to pour out oil.....narrow path/valley.  Such beautiful imagery, and we need God's help to apply it all.

[not an echo]

On 3/8/2022 at 3:50 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/8/2022 at 12:13 AM, not an echo said:

You kinda threw me here.  In the first paragraph you acknowledge, "I can't abide by that even if I can abide by the obvious fact other times when the Lord intervened in the affairs of mankind were indeed called the Day of the Lord; or at least close enough."  Then, in the next paragraph, you open by saying, "But even that is disputed by me."  Are you not contradicting yourself?

No. I just noticed some things that need looking into. I'm not ready to defend it just yet. I'm also not quite ready to concede the point. The dispute is internal questioning over language. It may be something, it may not be, haven't decided. 

Hello Diaste,

You threw me again.  Are you saying that you went from being able to "abide by the OBVIOUS FACT other times when the Lord intervened in the affairs of mankind were INDEED called the Day of the Lord; or AT LEAST CLOSE ENOUGH" in one breath to giving that up in your next breath when you "noticed some things"?  You indicated that what you noticed pertained to Ezekiel 30:1-3.  I used this reference in my EXHIBIT C.  I submit that it is going to be found to stand.  But, whether to you, what about my other exhibits?  There's a lot more than Ezekiel 30:1-3 (see my February 12 post on page 32 for my other exhibits).

On 3/8/2022 at 3:50 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/8/2022 at 12:13 AM, not an echo said:

My first thought with your opening paragraph was that maybe I'm making a little progress.  I'm taking it that by "that same label" you mean a "Day of the LORD" label concerning judgments that have taken place besides the Day of the LORD judgment that is yet future.  I have been much, much surprised that there has been no concept of this (that I have seen or been made aware of) on this forum, before my working up of this thread.

It's not a lack of cognition, it's a dearth of exactitude of context and relationship. Every day is a 'day of the Lord' since He made the days and nights and so on. Here in Joel 1-2:27 there are specifics required in understanding this particular day of darkness, gloom and terror.

Concerning your first sentence, do you not see some "dearth of exactitude of context and relationship" with your own interpretation?  I would have to go back and do some looking, but it seems to me that the connections you make with your interpretation would be represented by 3 or 4 straws, while mine would be represented by a truck load of bales.

Concerning your second sentence, this is a concept that would be in serious conflict with Scriptural concepts.

Concerning Joel 1-2:27, you state "there are specifics required in understanding this particular day of darkness, gloom and terror."  How do you see the specifics you have noted to support your interpretation as outweighing the specifics I have shown throughout this thread that support otherwise?  While I don't believe this is your intention, I feel that your arguments have become less with me and more with Scripture.  I know that we can become so convinced by what some scriptures state that it takes us a while to really be open to seeing the truth of what other scriptures state.  This is something that all who have really studied the Bible have probably experienced.  I just hope that you are not close-minded to what I have shown because of your being so convinced that the common pre-trib view is in error.  I'm in agreement with you that many of the interpretations used to support that view (with which I was raised) are wrong.  But, I also most assuredly believe that those who (like us) have rejected that view need to look still at the "Pre" possibility of it.  Hope you will look again at my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

On 3/8/2022 at 3:50 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/8/2022 at 12:13 AM, not an echo said:

My first thought with your opening paragraph was that maybe I'm making a little progress.  I'm taking it that by "that same label" you mean a "Day of the LORD" label concerning judgments that have taken place besides the Day of the LORD judgment that is yet future.  I have been much, much surprised that there has been no concept of this (that I have seen or been made aware of) on this forum, before my working up of this thread.

It's not a lack of cognition, it's a dearth of exactitude of context and relationship. Every day is a 'day of the Lord' since He made the days and nights and so on. Here in Joel 1-2:27 there are specifics required in understanding this particular day of darkness, gloom and terror.

I'm not trying to break it apart in the sense you are speaking of.  I'm merely dividing the DOTL judgment of the last days from what has already occurred.

As far as what has already occurred, in a day when Joel's generation needed his prophecy, I see your position as essentially removing the relevance of it for them and connecting it with only a singular last days' DOTL judgment.

If God raised up all the prophets of that time (e.g., II Chr. 36:15-16ff) to warn them of what was going to be taking place, where do you put Joel at in the mix?  How would they have concluded that, whereas the warnings of the other prophets pertained to them, Joel's didn't?  I'm just not able to reach where you are coming from.  Maybe if you could show more fully why you believe what you believe, I would be able to see it.  I know that I will have to see something besides a few straws.  Do you have a few bales?

Edited March 11, 2022 by not an echo
link

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

You threw me again.  Are you saying that you went from being able to "abide by the OBVIOUS FACT other times when the Lord intervened in the affairs of mankind were INDEED called the Day of the Lord; or AT LEAST CLOSE ENOUGH" in one breath to giving that up in your next breath when you "noticed some things"?  You indicated that what you noticed pertained to Ezekiel 30:1-3.  I used this reference in my EXHIBIT C.  I submit that it is going to be found to stand.  But, whether to you, what about my other exhibits?  There's a lot more than Ezekiel 30:1-3 (see my February 12 post on page 32 for my other exhibits).

Well yeah. I can have the formation of ideas while being reserved about an hard conclusion. I can suspect things are  one way and still be open to change or hold a less than solid conclusion when I feel there are other facts that may come to light. In this case I hedged as I didn't do the reading or fully assay the text. I noticed a few things that haven't added up even if I'm ready to assent to a partial agreement. 

So...It happened, or close enough, but there a few important details that have to be addressed, as the point in question may or may not be related or relevant. I haven't fully made up my mind on it just yet. 

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your first sentence, do you not see some "dearth of exactitude of context and relationship" with your own interpretation?  I would have to go back and do some looking, but it seems to me that the connections you make with your interpretation would be represented by 3 or 4 straws, while mine would be represented by a truck load of bales.

Well, If it were my interpretation. I'm not interpreting. I'm asking when it was fulfilled. I have likened Joel 1 and 2 to the trumps and other points in Revelation and I don't see it as wild eyed speculation. Given that conditions are very similar, the A of D has happened and the Lord is about to spare His people so they will NEVER AGAIN be ashamed, Matt 24 and parts of Revelation expand on what Joel said, but that's not interpretation. 

I get you don't like it. I can't do anything about that.

Interpretation is explaining what it means or conceptualizing a meaning of the text. 

For instance I never interpret the beast of Rev 17 to be any particular representation of a person, country or organization. Other people do that quite frequently. I honestly don't know what, or who, the beast is. There are a lot of details about the beast of Rev 17 but I cannot identify it in relation to any contemporary anything.

Other people do and they can have at it. I read and repeat. Likening Joel 1 and 2 to the trumps and other points in Rev, and across several other prophets and text, isn't interpreting, it's building a case on the facts extant.

It may be that I'm making some incorrect associations between one divine prophetic utterance and another  and I have been guilty of that in days past. I don't see that in this case but I'm also not infallible. 

That chance of fallibility is why I have asked for the proof of the fulfilment of Joel 1-2:27 as it is written in it's entirety, every condition, every event, every word, just as it was recorded as Joel heard the word of the Lord. 

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning Joel 1-2:27, you state "there are specifics required in understanding this particular day of darkness, gloom and terror."  How do you see the specifics you have noted to support your interpretation as outweighing the specifics I have shown throughout this thread that support otherwise?

What serious conflict? You'll have to be more specific.

To answer the above the main one is Joel 2:26-27 and the declaration, "...My people will never again be put to shame..." Twice this is said in two verses. If Joel 1-2:27 had been fulfilled them this should also have been fulfilled and it has not. The people of God have been put to horrifying shame again and again since this was written down by Joel.

In Joel 1 verses 9 and 13 "the grain and drink offerings are cut off". This occurs when a Temple stands and all the other events and conditions exist. The grain and drink cut off from the house of God is the A of D, an example of which occurred in 167 BC. 

I see no  example of this when every other condition of Joel 1-2:27 is in existence. 

 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

As far as what has already occurred, in a day when Joel's generation needed his prophecy, I see your position as essentially removing the relevance of it for them and connecting it with only a singular last days' DOTL judgment.

So was it said in the prophecy to whom or when it was relevant? No. This is gap filling to assume an audience when no such audience is specified. 

For instance:

"At the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came from the LORD: 2“This is what the LORD says: Stand in the courtyard of the house of the LORD and speak all the words I have commanded you to speak to all the cities of Judah who come to worship there. Do not omit a word. 3Perhaps they will listen and turn—each from his evil way of life—so that I may relent of the disaster I am planning to bring upon them because of the evil of their deeds."

This prophecy is directed to a specific audience; all the cities of Judah who come to worship there.

No one else. Does Joel do this? Yes.

Hear this, O elders;

and give ear, all who dwell in the land.

This is to everyone. 'All who dwell in the land' is the inhabitants of the earth.

[Heleadethme]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:29 AM, Heleadethme said:

The writer of Acts certainly referenced the blood, fire, smoke, moon part of Joel 2 as being part of what was being fulfilled.  There's no question about that....written in ink.  He wouldn't have quoted that part otherwise.

But what do those things mean?  It's illuminating to do word searches, with God's help.   Blood...shedding of blood, Christ's blood but also could be referencing the blood soon to be shed in judgment of Jerusalem/Israel.  Fire...Holy Spirit and also judgment.  Smoke...presence of God and also judgment or presence of God IN judgment.  Blood moon....Jesus Christ crucified, His blood shed.  (Why the priests looked and watched for new moon, needing two witnesses - Law and Prophets - because the new moon represented the appearing/coming of Messiah who reflected the glory of God - sun - having left His own glory behind in heaven when He came to earth.) 

Sun turned to darkness is God turning His face away = judgment.  Darkness also happened at the crucifixion, Matt 27:45.

Earthquake - also associated with the crucifixion and resurrection, Matt 27:54.  Mount of Olives represents Jesus when He walked the earth (His feet)...Gethsemane...His body broken, symbolically rent in two like the sacrifices of Abraham that the clay pot passed through.  The veil in the Temple rent in two making a way for the faithful to enter the Holy of Holies.  When we come to Christ and follow Him we are walking through the valley of the Mount of Olives rent in two....we are like olives being crushed like Jesus was in order to pour out oil.....narrow path/valley.  Such beautiful imagery, and we need God's help to apply it all.

See if this is helpful as well.....the beginning of sorrows that Jesus talked about, ie, labour pains, which are likened in scripture to God’s judgments (esp. upon Israel):

Isa 13:8

And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Jer 4:31

For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Jer 13:21

What wilt thou say when he shall punish thee? for thou hast taught them to be captains, and as chief over thee: shall not sorrows take thee, as a woman in travail?

Jer 49:24

Damascus is waxed feeble, and turneth herself to flee, and fear hath seized on her: anguish and sorrows have taken her, as a woman in travail.

 

Israel “died” in childbirth as it were....she died in giving birth to the Messiah and His body, the church....this is depicted in the account of Rachel giving birth to Benjamin:

 

Gen 35:16-19

And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.

And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

 

.....except that, as another scripture prophesies, it came to pass that Israel gave birth BEFORE her pains (of judgment) came upon her in 70 AD:

Isa 66:6-7

Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of the LORD repaying his enemies all they deserve.

“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.

So now we see why Jesus, as a faithful prophet of God was forewarning Israel of the coming judgment that would befall her, in Matt. 24 and other gospels, and what he was referencing when He prophesied the beginning of sorrows.

(It seems important that we be first grounded in what was being prophesied to Israel, and then we have a solid foundation to stand on, and can go on from there to rightly dividing (Lord willing, with His help) what prophecies might also concern the church, since Israel is the church’s pattern/ensample.)