Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[not an echo]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last paragraph, why would you say this in relation to my statement, "Also, I don't believe we should forget the time"?  I mean, have I got to be so careful about saying the word "believe"?  I never said it was proof of anything. 

Sometimes, yes. I hear it a lot. It's the backstop for a lot unusual thinking. It can remove any information or ideas in conflict with dogma. And it wasn't just that one statement that prompted the admonition. 

I'm just not interested in a basket of personal belief, I want to hear the Lord Jesus in the context of this topic. 

I'm great with you being a Ford or Chevy guy, light roast over dark, steak, vegan, mowing your lawn diagonally[weird ], or whatever else. 

Personal belief is not allowed in assaying prophecy, in my book, as though it carries the same weight as prophecy. That's the reason for the mess we see in here.

Everyone has some personal interpretation of how they want it to be and it's very likely we will all be completely wrong, or at least partially. 

Hello Diaste,

As I indicated in my previous post, I'm thinking that we probably will not be able to have a very fruitful discussion concerning the Day of the LORD judgments that Joel prophesies of until we find a better place of agreement concerning the DOTL judgments that happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  If one is going to seek to rightly divide the Word of Truth on the former, it will be necessary to rightly divide the Word of Truth on the latter. 

Concerning what you have often scorned relating to personal belief, I can say the same as you on a lot of the things you say, only, it seems to me that you are given to saying what you say to put me in a bad light and you in a good.  I can understand that you don't see what I see concerning Joel's prophecies because you haven't yet settled on what you believe about the scriptures I have put forth in support of my position.  But till you get there, you should be more careful.  What I have come to believe is based squarely on what I have found to be revealed in Scripture.  I have no interest in believing something that is not soundly supported by Scripture.  That's why I no longer believe some of the things that I was raised believing.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Happy to. (And to shamelessly plug my blog while doing so. )

These three verses, [Daniel] 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

 

Thanks!

[not an echo]

Hello Diaste,

I've got some other things that I want to do, but I feel that it would be good for me to first back up and speak to some of your comments that I originally moved past for the reason I stated in my previous post.

On 3/11/2022 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/10/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your first sentence, do you not see some "dearth of exactitude of context and relationship" with your own interpretation?  I would have to go back and do some looking, but it seems to me that the connections you make with your interpretation would be represented by 3 or 4 straws, while mine would be represented by a truck load of bales.

Well, If it were my interpretation. I'm not interpreting. I'm asking when it was fulfilled. I have likened Joel 1 and 2 to the trumps and other points in Revelation and I don't see it as wild eyed speculation. Given that conditions are very similar, the A of D has happened and the Lord is about to spare His people so they will NEVER AGAIN be ashamed, Matt 24 and parts of Revelation expand on what Joel said, but that's not interpretation. 

I get you don't like it. I can't do anything about that.

Interpretation is explaining what it means or conceptualizing a meaning of the text. 

For instance I never interpret the beast of Rev 17 to be any particular representation of a person, country or organization. Other people do that quite frequently. I honestly don't know what, or who, the beast is. There are a lot of details about the beast of Rev 17 but I cannot identify it in relation to any contemporary anything.

Other people do and they can have at it. I read and repeat. Likening Joel 1 and 2 to the trumps and other points in Rev, and across several other prophets and text, isn't interpreting, it's building a case on the facts extant.

It may be that I'm making some incorrect associations between one divine prophetic utterance and another  and I have been guilty of that in days past. I don't see that in this case but I'm also not infallible. 

That chance of fallibility is why I have asked for the proof of the fulfilment of Joel 1-2:27 as it is written in it's entirety, every condition, every event, every word, just as it was recorded as Joel heard the word of the Lord. 

Concerning your opening two sentences, it's all about seeking how to understand what we find in Scripture, and we both are doing it.  You speak of making "associations" and acknowledge that some of yours may be "incorrect", but then you draw your conclusions like, "the A of D has happened and the Lord is about to spare His people so they will NEVER AGAIN be ashamed..."  You accept the "facts extant" that you show me, but you seem to reject the facts extant that I show you.

I can say with you, "It may be that I'm making some incorrect associations between one divine prophetic utterance and another..."  Only thing is, it seems to me that I am answering those with which you make associations and you are not answering those with which I make associations.

On 3/11/2022 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/10/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Joel 1-2:27, you state "there are specifics required in understanding this particular day of darkness, gloom and terror."  How do you see the specifics you have noted to support your interpretation as outweighing the specifics I have shown throughout this thread that support otherwise?

What serious conflict? You'll have to be more specific.

To answer the above the main one is Joel 2:26-27 and the declaration, "...My people will never again be put to shame..." Twice this is said in two verses. If Joel 1-2:27 had been fulfilled them this should also have been fulfilled and it has not. The people of God have been put to horrifying shame again and again since this was written down by Joel.

In Joel 1 verses 9 and 13 "the grain and drink offerings are cut off". This occurs when a Temple stands and all the other events and conditions exist. The grain and drink cut off from the house of God is the A of D, an example of which occurred in 167 BC. 

Concerning your second paragraph, I have spoke to this a lot, pointing out the Israelites failure to meet the "Then" condition of 2:18 and showing abundant support of this in Scripture.  Then, you seem to make a wholesale dismissal of all the supporting scriptures in favor a a translation you prefer.

Concerning your last paragraph, do you not think that the siege of Jerusalem and the conditions being such that the mothers turned to cannibalizing their babies would have impacted the grain and drink offerings?  If the Babylonians cut off the food and drink supplies to the people of the city, do you not think that the collateral effect of this would be that the grain and drink offerings would be cut off as well?  And, if not then, what about when the temple was ransacked?  And, if not then, what about when the temple was burned?

On 3/11/2022 at 3:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/10/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said:

As far as what has already occurred, in a day when Joel's generation needed his prophecy, I see your position as essentially removing the relevance of it for them and connecting it with only a singular last days' DOTL judgment.

So was it said in the prophecy to whom or when it was relevant? No. This is gap filling to assume an audience when no such audience is specified. 

If you had been one of the elders of the land in Joel's day and copies of Joel's prophecies started circulating about town, how would you have took them?

On 3/12/2022 at 5:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/11/2022 at 2:18 PM, not an echo said:

First of all, concerning the Hebrew, this is from the Worthy Strong's...

Strong's Concordance H7138

Original Word: קָרוֹב

Transliteration: qârôwb

Phonetic Spelling: kaw-robe'

or קָרֹב; from H7126; near (in place, kindred or time); allied, approach, at hand, any of kin, kinsfold(-sman), (that is) near (of kin), neighbour, (that is) next, (them that come) nigh (at hand), more ready, short(-ly).

You make the statement in your second paragraph, "and it's one of relationship and not time."  As I'm seeing it, your statement is in conflict with Strong's.

But as I have asked, is it at hand[Joel 1:15] then? 200 years later? If a time stamp is the factor then why didn't it occur in Joel's time? Why in the 6th century? How is that 'near' or 'at hand'? 

So as long as the time factor fits a doctrine then 'near' or 'at hand' can mean immediate or 200 years later? 

That seems forced into the text, don't you think? However if 'near' or 'at hand' is in relation to other events and conditions then there is no forcing of meaning. 

Joel lists many events and conditions in existence when the DOTL is 'near' or 'at hand'. I don't see a time factor or a time stamp anywhere in the prophecy.

What you say here is not righting your wrong.  You had made the statement, "In Joel 1:15 and 2:1 the word used is qarob. This term is a near cousin to qarab. Both have nearly the same idea and it's one of relationship and not time."

In your third paragraph you say, "if 'near' or 'at hand' is in relation to other events and conditions then there is no forcing of meaning."  What is it about my position that you don't believe meets this criteria?  As I've said, "I'm not seeing where what you put forth affects my position---at all."

On 3/12/2022 at 5:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/11/2022 at 2:18 PM, not an echo said:

I guess I could stop with that, but either way or both, I'm not seeing where what you put forth affects my position---at all.  If Joel's prophecy came at any time in the 8th century B.C., even 799, his message would have been very relevant, both for the northern and southern kingdoms.  The northern kingdom had already been long out of God's will, diving headlong into idolatry some 200 years prior.  And, the southern kingdom should have perked right up and took serious notice---which it didn't---not as a whole.  If Joel's prophecy came in 799, Assyria was already strong and building power and started heating things up for the northern kingdom in the mid of the century.

Lots of 'ifs'. We have a sure word of prophecy. Joel doesn't have 'ifs'. Joel relates events, conditions and speaks to proximity and collective existence. If that is not extant as a whole then nothing in Joel 1-2:27 has occurred.

I put my "ifs" in bold.  And the two "ifs" I used---which are not "Lots of" in my neck of the woods---had nothing to do with "a sure word of prophecy."  It had to do with the dating of Joel's prophecy, which is commonly held to be around 800 B.C.  I was just showing how that any way you cut it, there's not an obstacle to my position.  And my "ifs"?  Kinda akin to the "If" you used in your last sentence, don't you think?

On 3/12/2022 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/11/2022 at 2:18 PM, not an echo said:

You make the statement that "Joel describes it is only near when the army as described is on the loose. So just from normal reading we see the day is 'near' in relationship to the army, not time."  Well, the Assyrian army was on the loose my friend, and the Babylonian army wasn't far behind them.

Except for the this particular army is one that has never been nor ever will be. I can list dozens of armies that were greater than any army the Assyrian empire had to offer that came after the Assyrian empire was long gone. The Muslim conquests of 700-1200 AD come to mind. 

And that's just one, there are many others. They all outstrip the Assyrians and the Babylonians combined.

Perhaps, when Joel 2:2 is understood according to the translation you prefer.  I submit that we are not left dangling only by that.

On 3/12/2022 at 5:43 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/11/2022 at 2:18 PM, not an echo said:

The time???  It just adds more weight to the balance scale on the side of my position, IMHO.

In the prophecy of Joel time is not a factor, conditions are. Not once does Joel mentions time. There is a literal gauntlet of conditions preceding the DOTL that all must be present as the clarion of prophecy fulfilled manifesting on earth prior to the DOTL.

Like I've said, this doesn't matter to my position either way.  The time in which Joel received the prophecy just establishes my position further.  I mean, are you supposing that Joel received these words from God and didn't see the relevance of the message for his day?  Now, if the prophecy had not come till 500 or 400 B.C. (or 585 B.C. for that matter/i.e., one year after the fact), it would be different.

On 3/12/2022 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/11/2022 at 12:46 PM, not an echo said:

 

Because your statement that I made this particular reply to---"I can't abide by that even if I can abide by the OBVIOUS FACT other times when the Lord intervened in the affairs of mankind were INDEED called the Day of the Lord; or AT LEAST CLOSE ENOUGH."---indicated that you were now seeing this too, I took it for granted that you would understand what I was getting at, not that you would be looking for the actual phrase "'Day of the Lord'" in the particular reference I was using.  Since then, you have made comments on your statement that indicate you are unsettled on what you said, which to me is okay.  I commend your honesty.

A misrepresentation of my thought process. I only see it where it said, 'day of the Lord'. Where I am on this is deciding if 'day of the Lord' mentioned in the OT is one and the same with the 'day of the Lord' at the end of the age or, if it is a unique occurrence due to necessary action by the Most High God as a response to a nations behavior. 

I think there is one concerning Egypt but I'm failing to find it. @WilliamL brought this up in the past. Maybe he will help jog my memory.

So far, all I see is prophecy concerning an end of the age DOTL. 

Concerning your second paragraph, did you not read my EXHIBIT C?   Here it is again...

====================

EXHIBIT C---Since our previous exhibit had us looking in the book of Ezekiel, I want to call our attention there again, this time with a focus upon chapters 29-32.  As before, to understand the context, I would encourage the reading of each of these chapters.  Note especially how that chapter 29 opens, as this sets the focus for what follows...

1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of EGYPT, and prophesy against him, AND AGAINST ALL EGYPT:

3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

We must know that if God would judge His covenant nation for all their ungodliness, He would judge the surrounding heathen nations for all their ungodliness as well---and He did.  Their idolatry preceded that of the Israelites, and for that, God judged them as well.  Note a little further in chapter 29...

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee.

9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; AND THEY SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD: because he (Pharoah/vs. 3) hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it.

Important to note is that God judged them as He did that they might know that He was "THE LORD" (see 29:16, 21;  30:8, 19, 25; and 32:15).

Moreover, with the same instrument God used to judge His people, He judged Egypt.  Interestingly, in chapter 29 we read that He gave Egypt into Nebuchadrezzar's hand as "wages" (vss. 18-19), saying also...

20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, BECAUSE THEY WROUGHT FOR ME, saith the Lord GOD.

Important also to note is that concerning this judgment, God told Ezekiel to prophesy thus, as chapter 30 opens...

2 Son of man, prophesy and say, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD; HOWL YE, WOE WORTH THE DAY!

3 For THE DAY is near, even

THE DAY OF THE LORD

is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.

This is the tenor of everything that is said concerning the judgment of God that was then looming upon Egypt.  Consider just a few verses further...

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

11 He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

12 And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I THE LORD HAVE SPOKEN IT.

====================

And, don't forget my other exhibits.

On 3/13/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/12/2022 at 11:23 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the last sentence of your first paragraph, I'm thinking that it would be fair of me to say that I'm still waiting for an acknowledgement from you that there were Day of the LORD judgments that happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  I'm thinking more and more that we probably will not be able to have a very fruitful discussion till we are at least in agreement on that---whatever it may mean related to Joel's prophecy

I did say in another post that Ezekiel 30 contains the term, 'day of the Lord', and Jeremiah 50 does not. Jeremiah 46 does.

I'm not saying the term doesn't exist in scripture, I'm not yet convinced it's a term unrelated to the end of the age day of the Lord as a stand alone day of the Lord in no way related to eschatology, and the fulfillment of Joel 1-2:27, and not the fulfillment of another prophecy, like Ezekiel 29 for example.

There are 29 times 'day of the Lord' appears in scripture, 24 in the OT. Jeremiah 46 is the one I see that may not have a connection to the end of the age prophecies. There is no similar language in Jeremiah 46:10 like in Isaiah, Amos, Obadiah, Joel, etc., that matches with the end of the age as Jesus foretold. 

Even then there are some clues in Jeremiah 46 that prompt questions:

1. they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates.?

2. Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth;?

3. and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans?

4. for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.?

5.  Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh out of the north.?

6.  because they are more than the grasshoppers, and are innumerable.?

7.  she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north.?

8.  for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee:?

 

On a map Babylon is east of Egypt. Why all this talk of the north? Ethiopia and Libya are not Egypt. Innumerable? Was Babylon innumerable? And make a full end of the nations where they were driven? They were driven to all nations, yes?

Is Egypt representative of the world in this passage and Babylon the punisher of the idea of the world here? 

Did Babylon destroy Egypt in the north by the Euphrates? 

Are we looking at the battle of Carchemish? That appears to be Egypt and Assyria but so far I see no Ethiopians or Libyans were taking part, as required by the prophecy. 

Cover the earth? Egypt could not have crossed the Euphrates to besiege Haran without the Assyrians, even then both were defeated by Babylon. That doesn't sound like an army that 'covers the earth'.

Maybe this has been misunderstood?

Concerning the Day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46 I do not doubt it is a day of the Lord, even a specific 'the day of the Lord', but the missing element of the darkness, gloom, sun and moon going dark, stars falling, etc., tells me this isn't related. Those conditions are ubiquitous in the Minor prophets, the Gospels, and Revelation.

It's not necessarily true those conditions were not present at what I assume is Carchemish to which you refer, but it's not recorded in scripture so I can't say either way, only that it's just not there.

I would add it's a prominent feature of the other prophecies of that day in the Major and Minor prophets sooo....why is it missing from Jeremiah 46?

I didn't want to chop up your post, but about half way down, you said, "On a map Babylon is east of Egypt. Why all this talk of the north?"  You will find concerning this (and other things you asked) spoke to in the non-prophetic books as well.  Consider II Kings 23:28-24:7.

Also, concerning your next to the last paragraph, did you miss the mention of Carchemish in Jeremiah 46:2?

Diaste, I would just like to say this before I move on (for now).  This thread would probably not be in existence if it were not for your statements and questions in my thread concerning, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?  I came to realize that such a thread as this would be needed to stop that thread from being continually side-tracked or derailed.  I completely put that thread (and my others) on hold to develop and work this thread.  The further I have went, the further I have felt that it has been so very needed.  It deserves a lot of work yet, but I believe it represents what will at some time be seen as a very valuable study.  I know it must be tough to have to think in terms of thinking in different terms once again in your life.  I know.  For that reason, I don't feel hard towards you (at all) for being what I have often felt was resistant (or even incorrigible ).  Hey, we are dealing with some important stuff.  And, important stuff is worth a "good" fight.  I have now said this (or something to this effect) many times (more of late) but I would again like to say that it matters less who has got it right and more that we are all ready---come what may.  Whatever you end up thinking about me, if we never meet this side of glory, I'm looking forward to meeting you on the other side.  And, if I ever see you by the Crystal River, I'm gonna give you that push I've warned you about before---the biggest ole shove you ever had.   And then, I'm gonna jump in myself.  It'll be a good time!

I hope you have a most rewarding time of study.

[not an echo]

On 3/13/2022 at 2:18 PM, WilliamL said:

On 3/12/2022 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

A misrepresentation of my thought process. I only see it where it said, 'day of the Lord'. Where I am on this is deciding if 'day of the Lord' mentioned in the OT is one and the same with the 'day of the Lord' at the end of the age or, if it is a unique occurrence due to necessary action by the Most High God as a response to a nations behavior. 

I think there is one concerning Egypt but I'm failing to find it. @WilliamL brought this up in the past. Maybe he will help jog my memory.

Happy to. (And to shamelessly plug my blog while doing so. )

These three verses, [Daniel] 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

Hello William,

Just wanted to say that in the course of this thread, your post here is the first solid acknowledgement that there has been any historical Day of the LORD judgment.  I have been thinking for some time that the only concept that anyone in this forum family has had of a Day of the LORD judgment is the last days' Day of the LORD judgment.

I was desirous to use the Jeremiah 46 reference as one of my exhibits, but I received a reply early in this thread that indicated that there was a belief that the "Day of the Lord GOD of hosts" was different than the "Day of the LORD."  So, to avoid further (and unnecessary) time consuming replies, I just went with the cleanest examples, of which there are several.

Out of curiosity, I'm kinda wondering why you hadn't chimed in on this earlier.  Before I started this reply, I scanned my whole thread (took a little while) to refresh my memory if you had.  I saw where you made a couple of posts early on, but not concerning this.  I bet you have just been laying low to see what all that ole not an echo was going to say.   Anyway, I'm thankful for what represents an acknowledgment of this from another member and looking forward to looking in on your blog concerning this to see what we see of it in common---as soon as I get the time.

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Out of curiosity, I'm kinda wondering why you hadn't chimed in on this earlier.  Before I started this reply, I scanned my whole thread (took a little while) to refresh my memory if you had.  I saw where you made a couple of posts early on, but not concerning this. 

Because I don't have home internet, and only get online for about 3 hours every 4 or 5 days on average. I crank out as much as possible in the short time that I have. Which is why I quote my blogs so much, because they cover 95+% of all the eschatology questions that repeatedly come up in these forums.

 

[Diaste]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Diaste, I would just like to say this before I move on (for now).  This thread would probably not be in existence if it were not for your statements and questions in my thread concerning, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?  I came to realize that such a thread as this would be needed to stop that thread from being continually side-tracked or derailed.  I completely put that thread (and my others) on hold to develop and work this thread.  The further I have went, the further I have felt that it has been so very needed.  It deserves a lot of work yet, but I believe it represents what will at some time be seen as a very valuable study. 

Not a bad thing.

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

I know it must be tough to have to think in terms of thinking in different terms once again in your life. 

If you only knew you'd know 'thinking different' isn't the issue.

 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

 

I know.  For that reason, I don't feel hard towards you (at all) for being what I have often felt was resistant (or even incorrigible ). 

Yep. Resistant. Incorrigible. Stubborn. Been called worse. 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Hey, we are dealing with some important stuff.  And, important stuff is worth a "good" fight.  I have now said this (or something to this effect) many times (more of late) but I would again like to say that it matters less who has got it right and more that we are all ready---come what may. 

Right isn't the issue, I agree. Understanding is important.

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Whatever you end up thinking about me, if we never meet this side of glory, I'm looking forward to meeting you on the other side.  And, if I ever see you by the Crystal River, I'm gonna give you that push I've warned you about before---the biggest ole shove you ever had.   And then, I'm gonna jump in myself.  It'll be a good time!

I bear no ill will toward you, c'mon man!

 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

I hope you have a most rewarding time of study.

Usually do. 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening two sentences, it's all about seeking how to understand what we find in Scripture, and we both are doing it.  You speak of making "associations" and acknowledge that some of yours may be "incorrect", but then you draw your conclusions like, "the A of D has happened and the Lord is about to spare His people so they will NEVER AGAIN be ashamed..."  You accept the "facts extant" that you show me, but you seem to reject the facts extant that I show you.

I can say with you, "It may be that I'm making some incorrect associations between one divine prophetic utterance and another..."  Only thing is, it seems to me that I am answering those with which you make associations and you are not answering those with which I make associations.

Yes. I may be incorrect. That is a commonality with all mankind. It's an exploration. In case you hadn't noticed I'm not the accepting type

And as I have said in the past; people have lied to me about very important matters over and over for years and so I'm not exactly the most trusting type anymore. If it can be proven factually beyond doubt from the authoritative source, then well. 

I have questions about the associations I make so it's reasonable to question associations from other sources.  I do answer them. I have questions about them. I'm not convinced yet.

It's not that I don't accept the facts, I do. It's the conclusions that need to fit all the facts, facts properly assayed, relevant and proper. Not always a simple thing, especially in prophecy.

 

[Diaste]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

 

Concerning your second paragraph, I have spoke to this a lot, pointing out the Israelites failure to meet the "Then" condition of 2:18 and showing abundant support of this in Scripture.  Then, you seem to make a wholesale dismissal of all the supporting scriptures in favor a a translation you prefer.

I'm not interested in a debate about translations. I can pull up the parallels, which I do in personal study and even posted them from time to time, and peruse them and you know what I find? Slight variations in wording and intact concepts. As long as the concepts remain there is no difference. Picking on translations is a tactical shot. 

 

 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last paragraph, do you not think that the siege of Jerusalem and the conditions being such that the mothers turned to cannibalizing their babies would have impacted the grain and drink offerings?  If the Babylonians cut off the food and drink supplies to the people of the city, do you not think that the collateral effect of this would be that the grain and drink offerings would be cut off as well?  And, if not then, what about when the temple was ransacked?  And, if not then, what about when the temple was burned?

What I think has no bearing on the issue. What does the scripture of truth tell us concerning the prophecy? is the only important question. 

If the Word tells us the grain and drink offerings were cut off, in what ever moment of catastrophe for Jerusalem in the past, is stated in Jeremiah 46 or Ezekiel 30, or any other passage or chapter you cite, like it's cited in Joel, then I'll examine it. 

I could speculate but it's fruitless. Gap filling leads to error.

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

If you had been one of the elders of the land in Joel's day and copies of Joel's prophecies started circulating about town, how would you have took them?

Don't know. Probably with the same sort of cynical scrutiny I exhibit now.

 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

What you say here is not righting your wrong.  You had made the statement, "In Joel 1:15 and 2:1 the word used is qarob. This term is a near cousin to qarab. Both have nearly the same idea and it's one of relationship and not time."

In your third paragraph you say, "if 'near' or 'at hand' is in relation to other events and conditions then there is no forcing of meaning."  What is it about my position that you don't believe meets this criteria?  As I've said, "I'm not seeing where what you put forth affects my position---at all."

The concept of near in prophecy is one of proximity to events. Even in Daniel 9 it's proximal to events in the given amount of time. The command had to go forth to start the prophetic countdown. The command is an event. Then the countdown ended in an event, The Messiah. Events and conditions, events and conditions. It's not about righting a wrong, it's about listening to what the Word says.

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

I put my "ifs" in bold.  And the two "ifs" I used---which are not "Lots of" in my neck of the woods---had nothing to do with "a sure word of prophecy."  It had to do with the dating of Joel's prophecy, which is commonly held to be around 800 B.C.  I was just showing how that any way you cut it, there's not an obstacle to my position.  And my "ifs"?  Kinda akin to the "If" you used in your last sentence, don't you think?

Oy! I'm not gap filling with speculation. I said, "Joel relates events, conditions and speaks to proximity and collective existence. If that is not extant as a whole then nothing in Joel 1-2:27 has occurred."

I could have said, "Unless that is extant as a whole then nothing in Joel 1-2:27 has occurred." or,

"Until that is extant as a whole then nothing in Joel 1-2:27 has occurred." or,

"Except that is extant as a whole then nothing in Joel 1-2:27 has occurred."

The point is;  what Joel records is a comprehensive foretelling of events and conditions all in existence in the same time/space moment, with the Day of the Lord impending. When in history was all that, all of it leaving nothing out, sans any speculation, in existence all at the same time?

When?

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Perhaps, when Joel 2:2 is understood according to the translation you prefer.  I submit that we are not left dangling only by that.

Twice? 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Like I've said, this doesn't matter to my position either way.  The time in which Joel received the prophecy just establishes my position further.  I mean, are you supposing that Joel received these words from God and didn't see the relevance of the message for his day?  Now, if the prophecy had not come till 500 or 400 B.C. (or 585 B.C. for that matter/i.e., one year after the fact), it would be different.

Not a set logical arguments and has no effect on when prophecy was given and the time of manifestation. Jesus said,

Matt 13
For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

Paul said,

Hebrews 11

"All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar."

We have to keep in mind the Author of all prophecy is eternal and operates outside of time. We are slaves to time, He is not. Further, we are guaranteed eternal life for all who believe on Him, so what does time matter? It does not. Speculating that time is a factor or a plea to relevance at a point on the continuum is gap filling, argument from silence, and special pleading.

What prophecies of Jesus 1st advent came into existence when they were uttered? These waited for the fulfillment for centuries. Time isn't a factor, proximal events and conditions are.

 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, did you not read my EXHIBIT C?   Here it is again...

====================

EXHIBIT C---Since our previous exhibit had us looking in the book of Ezekiel, I want to call our attention there again, this time with a focus upon chapters 29-32.  As before, to understand the context, I would encourage the reading of each of these chapters.  Note especially how that chapter 29 opens, as this sets the focus for what follows...

1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of EGYPT, and prophesy against him, AND AGAINST ALL EGYPT:

3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

We must know that if God would judge His covenant nation for all their ungodliness, He would judge the surrounding heathen nations for all their ungodliness as well---and He did.  Their idolatry preceded that of the Israelites, and for that, God judged them as well.  Note a little further in chapter 29...

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee.

9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; AND THEY SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD: because he (Pharoah/vs. 3) hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it.

Important to note is that God judged them as He did that they might know that He was "THE LORD" (see 29:16, 21;  30:8, 19, 25; and 32:15).

Moreover, with the same instrument God used to judge His people, He judged Egypt.  Interestingly, in chapter 29 we read that He gave Egypt into Nebuchadrezzar's hand as "wages" (vss. 18-19), saying also...

20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, BECAUSE THEY WROUGHT FOR ME, saith the Lord GOD.

Important also to note is that concerning this judgment, God told Ezekiel to prophesy thus, as chapter 30 opens...

2 Son of man, prophesy and say, THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD; HOWL YE, WOE WORTH THE DAY!

3 For THE DAY is near, even

THE DAY OF THE LORD

is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.

This is the tenor of everything that is said concerning the judgment of God that was then looming upon Egypt.  Consider just a few verses further...

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

11 He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

12 And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I THE LORD HAVE SPOKEN IT.

Yeah. Questions arise as I see many things in Eze 30:

"

Wail, ‘Alas

for that day!’

3For the day is near,

the Day of the LORD is near.

It will be a day of clouds,

a time of doom for the nations.[heathen]

Nations: goy: nation, people, "

every nation (2), Gentiles (1), Goiim (1), Harosheth-hagoyim* (3), herds (1), nation (120), nations (425), people (4).

This isn't confined to a single nation. Just like the end of the age. This isn't singling out Egypt.

4A sword will come against Egypt,

and there will be anguish in Cush

when the slain fall in Egypt,

its wealth is taken away,

and its foundations are torn down.

5Cush, Put, and Lud,

and all the various peoples,

as well as Libya and the men of the covenant land,

will fall with Egypt by the sword.

Cush, Put, Lud, Libya, and the covenant land. Point being this is global or very widespread, not confined to Egypt.

6For this is what the LORD says:

The allies of Egypt will fall,

and her proud strength will collapse.

From Migdol to Syened

they will fall by the sword within her,

declares the Lord GOD.

7They will be desolate among desolate lands,

and their cities will lie among ruined cities.

Doesn't appear to be localized. Just like the end.

8Then they will know that I am the LORD

when I set fire to Egypt

and all her helpers are shattered.

9On that day messengers will go out from Me in ships to frighten Cush out of complacency. Anguish will come upon them on the day of Egypt’s doom. For it is indeed coming.

I'm not convinced Egypt here is the land of borders but may be a metaphor for the nations of  earth.

10This is what the Lord GOD says:

I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt

by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.

Not sure about Nebo here. Nebo can also be 'crown'. But I feel that's reaching a bit. I have no definitive answer for this, yet.

11He and his people with him,

the most ruthless of the nations,

will be brought in to destroy the land.

They will draw their swords against Egypt

and fill the land with the slain.

12I will make the streams dry up

and sell the land to the wicked.

By the hands of foreigners I will bring desolation

upon the land and everything in it.

"

On 3/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, not an echo said:

====================

And, don't forget my other exhibits.

I didn't want to chop up your post, but about half way down, you said, "On a map Babylon is east of Egypt. Why all this talk of the north?"  You will find concerning this (and other things you asked) spoke to in the non-prophetic books as well.  Consider II Kings 23:28-24:7.

Also, concerning your next to the last paragraph, did you miss the mention of Carchemish in Jeremiah 46:2?

I mentioned Carchemish in another post. Even did some reading. Carchemish is in Assyria on the Euphrates. 

Also, " We know for certain, from the chronicles, that Nabopolassar sent his son Nebuchadnezzar with a "great army" to the west of Harran, towards the future place of the battle."

http://www.arsbellica.it/pagine/battaglie_in_sintesi/Carchemish_eng.html

So Nebuchadnezzar wasn't the king at this point as required by, "defeated at Carchemish on the Euphrates River by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah:" He was the son of the King and a General. He was crown prince and became king a few weeks after Carchemish.

Maybe the Babylonian Chronicles are wrong.

Then, "...a part of the Allied forces of Egypt had been lost in the clash with Josiah at Megiddo," I don't see this in Jeremiah 46. 

http://www.arsbellica.it/pagine/battaglie_in_sintesi/Carchemish_eng.html

Jeremiah 46 speaks to the destruction of Egypt and it allies at the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, not Josiah. Maybe Josiah had a part in the prophecy but it's not mentioned. 

"The march of the Egyptian army under the command of Pharaoh Necho II at Megiddo, however, was delayed by the forces of King Josiah of Judah. Josiah was killed and his army was defeated. The corpse of Josiah was delivered to Jerusalem and immediately buried according to the customs of the kings of Judah, near the tomb of King David. But his sacrifice was not in vain. The allied forces in Egypt had probably lost the human resources that would prove decisive in the battle against the main enemy:"

http://www.arsbellica.it/pagine/battaglie_in_sintesi/Carchemish_eng.html

From Jeremiah 46:13-25 we see Nebuchadnezzar inside Egypt's borders. From what I read Nebby invaded Egypt in 564 BC[http://www.displaceddynasties.com/uploads/6/2/6/5/6265423/displaced_dynasties_chapter__1_-_nebuchadnezzars_wars.pdf] 40 years after Carchemish

If the destruction of Egypt was to happen alongside what happened at Carchemish then something else is off. But I suppose the prophecy did come to pass eventually. No time stamps.

From the reading the prophecy looks fulfilled in every detail, it's probably the dates are off in the histories. Except for that 'King of Babylon' thing, I'm pretty well convinced.

I do wonder where we see Day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46. A ctrl+f search yields nothing on the page.

[not an echo]

On 3/16/2022 at 1:39 PM, WilliamL said:

On 3/15/2022 at 10:46 PM, not an echo said:

Out of curiosity, I'm kinda wondering why you hadn't chimed in on this earlier.  Before I started this reply, I scanned my whole thread (took a little while) to refresh my memory if you had.  I saw where you made a couple of posts early on, but not concerning this. 

Because I don't have home internet, and only get online for about 3 hours every 4 or 5 days on average. I crank out as much as possible in the short time that I have. Which is why I quote my blogs so much, because they cover 95+% of all the eschatology questions that repeatedly come up in these forums.

I certainly understand, especially the part about cranking out "as much as possible in the short time that I have." 

[not an echo]

Hello all,

Does anyone know if there is some problem with the ability to edit?  Yesterday I tried to go back and edit in a link and I got this message:  "This comment can no longer be edited.  It may have been moved or deleted, or too much time may have passed since it was posted for it to be edited."  I just noticed a typo on another post I made yesterday and I tried to edit it.  Got the same message.