What if others will be in heaven?

[Kelly2363]

1 minute ago, Waggles said:

Actually no one goes to Heaven.

The meek and the righteous shall inherit the Earth.

 

I didn't quote yourself I quoted another. So if you must correct me do it in a true spirit and not a false one. 

[Kelly2363]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

?????? 

From whence did impression universalism was being asserted or promoted arise? Most here have been quite explicit in asserting the truth of John 14:6 and its exclusivity, including the op. 

From this (below) because whilst this is a partial Universal doctrine of salvation it is in truth the leaven that leavens the entire bread. So rather than prevaricate with small lies I expressed an opposition to the whole ambition of Satan. 

49 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I'm fairly confident some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus will be in heaven.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Kelly2363
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[Waggles]

There is a first resurrection (and judgement) and there is a second resurrection with its own judgement.

In respect to the second resurrection and the second judgement ... 

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat thereon, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and no place was found for them. 
12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and booklets were opened: and another booklet was opened, which is that of life: and the dead were judged out of the things written in the booklets, according to their works. 
13  And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead in them: and they were judged each according to their works. 
14  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 
15  And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. 

verse 15 clearly teaches that some names are written in the book of life.

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.  Proverbs 15:3

Edited October 3, 2021 by Waggles

[Dennis1209]

Wow, this topic sure will open a theological debate. I see that Master lock symbol in front of this thread title here shortly. 

Like one poster succinctly indicated, those that never heard the Gospel, and those brought up in other religions; all were given a measure of truth and light at birth, knowing right from wrong; good from evil. Parents of children through all ages witness that truth in their young children, testing what they can get away with, crying until they get their way, etc. 

That there is a creator God. What did they do with that truth? God's standard:

Romans 1:20 (KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Bible is loaded with the answers, just to paste a few:

Deuteronomy 4:29 (KJV) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. Proverbs 8:17 (KJV) I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV) And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Luke 11:9 (KJV) And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

There is an eight-question test in 1 John, to know your Salvation status. It all centers around the word love; Loving God with all your heart, and your brother the same. 

Is cutting off the heads of Christians, Jews and infidels an act of love? Being associated with such a group? Worshipping cows, monkeys and rats; and taking care of them better than your brother, an act of appropriate love? 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Dennis1209

[Kelly2363]

44 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I see. And what do you do with the statements that quickly follows the quote mine: They will be there because they believed in Jesus. Jesus, as you just posted, is the only way. 

I plainly stated Jesus is the only way. Furthermore, while you may not have ever read me argue against the heresy of Universalism in Worthy, you have on countless occasion read me arguing annihilationism and the clear dichotomy of eternal life versus eternal destruction. Joust so there is no further confusion on your part, 

 

I AM NOT A UNIVERSALIST

That work for you?
 

I have been asked, "How will some Muslims believe in Christ to a claim of being found in heaven at the end of the age when their Jesus is Isa Al'Masih - a mere prophet and a thing that even the Pharisees recognised when they cried we have no King but Caesar?" and my answer is, "They will not be found in heaven." They will not be found in heaven because that Jesus is not Jesus, anymore than the God of Mohammed is God, or the god of Siddhartha, the god of Joseph Smith, the god of Pharaoh, the god of the cargo cult, or the spaghetti monster are God. It should not have been assumed otherwise (especially since we could be discussing our shared understanding not based on assumptions of heresy). I was asked, "...by what power will the Muslim and the Hindu and the Buddhist be found in heaven?" and the answer is through Christ alone. The answer is, "By the power of the God who saves," because there is no other salvation than the one provided by God through His resurrected Son, Jesus (or Y'shua if you prefer), and no other God that saves besides God. And I defy anyone to find any post in any forum anywhere in the internet where I have ever argued otherwise.  And in light of the witness of the more than 5500 posts I've made in the last 15 months here in Worthy it is absurd to think I believe in Universalism. This is even more so since my profile plainly states I lean Reformed, monergist, annihilationist, conservative fundamentalist pov and have unerringly argued vehemently so.  NOTHING I ever post should ever be read to say otherwise. 

 

Hope that clears things up for you.  

 

 

Anyone and everyone who believes in Christ will be saved, whether they be Muslim, Hindu, Native American, or Lower Slobovian, but they must believe in the resurrected Son of the Creator God Who is One as Lord because he cannot and will not be Savior alone. Every knee will bow and confess him as King, but not all will confess him as Savior. 

And no one here can judge the eternal disposition of another. Ever. Some of you aren't even sure of your own eternal disposition.  

Ultimately it is no concern of mine what anyone believes who takes the name of Christ and then sets about to distort doctrine whether they see it or not. My concern in that meaning is not the one who expresses their opinion - howsoever they set it into a claim to the meaning of Scripture - or a narrative form. My concern is always for the many who are led astray with an effect that has its ambition in the working of Satan. And I don't make a theoretical truth - I stand against Satan to his face both in real life and in any expression of resisting his ambitions on line. That can easily lead to being sanctioned on a forum.

In real life no one resists me at all once I take a stand - other than to speculate endlessly - as it may be endlessly - if I do not take a stand. Thats just the way it is. The Lord makes the separation and no one can misunderstand that.

In your specific instant of commenting you said, "And no one here can judge the eternal disposition of another. Ever. Some of you aren't even sure of your own eternal disposition." That latter point is the prophetic concern and the former is the inference that is - some who have not come into a true knowledge of Christ and into Him by faith will be saved. That inference is against the apostolic doctrines of life given us in the Scripture and not a matter for those who claim to be bond servants of Christ. 

Speaking more generally, when men tell me that it is God who judges they inferentially assert that I should not have a judgement or else if not to myself then all others who do judge. Whereas judging the household of God is the only judgement that is given to the ministry of the churches and not a judgement in the semblance of a misused precept.

I don't play with words and whilst I can see how easily that can be appended with quiet discord - that appeasement of a lie - setting believer against believer - if for no other reason that a sense of fear of consequence - for myself I can say clearly that I don't fear anyone regardless of the consequence. So no need to dispel my disquiet - just read the doctrine and the meaning. And by saying I don't fear anyone I mean expressly that I know whom I am serving and I fear Him. 

Forums are difficult so I won't be alarmed if I am removed sometime. Neither will I blame anyone other than the Devil. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Kelly2363
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[R. Hartono]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:20 PM, Amigo42 said:

The more I learn about the historic and cultural context in which the Bible was written, the more I realize that we really don't know as much as we think.

What if people will be in heaven who we thought would not be like some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus?  This might seem heretical, but what if people are saved by the blood even if they don't realize it.  There are people who live righteous lives up to the knowledge they have.  Yes, Jesus is the only way.  However, the patriarchs did not know Jesus such as Moses, David, etc. Yet, these people are saved.  This is food for thought.

Nobody is honest in history.

Roman 3:4 let God be true but every man is a liar.

Moses and David knew God, claiming them as didnt know Jesus is not true and deceptive.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I AM NOT A UNIVERSALIST

That work for you?

 

To this specific element of your post. I know that you are not a Universalist - what I do believe is that you hold to a partial doctrine - and just to say this plainly -  I can see why that partial meaning would be provoked from the Scripture itself. In fact I could make a more robust and entirely Scriptural argument that would give credence to the overarching sense that a just God - seeing that Christ died to take away the sin of the world - would have a just answer to the problem of the many who insofar as we know have never heard the Gospel in their own hearing or had any semblance of a religious framework that would facilitate their having visions or dreams that would correct their lie (Isa Al'Masih for example) and provoke a heart to please God into a living faith. Many Muslims are being saved in Islamic countries on that very premise today. Of those who fall outside that meaning then where is the justice of God who willed to send His only begotten Son to take away the tutor of the Law and the spiritual effect of sin as a natural fact of all who are in Adam - if God is love?

Those kinds of questions don't disturb me - but neither do they need answering. In fact trying to answer them is leading to a Universalist claim that is not as nuanced as answering the question of the justice and love of God - and leads to a powerless Gospel. I find that increasing numbers of believers resist that power of God unto Salvation and increasingly feel confident to rebuke those who hold to it. With me that is a serious misjudgement altogether. But then I don't do tea and biscuits with heretics. NOT YOU but those who are ambitiously determined to undermine the Gospel - even when they can express doctrines that say otherwise. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Kelly2363
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[Kelly2363]

15 minutes ago, Josheb said:

3 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

This heresy of Universalism is having the effect of causing many, particularly young saints, to believe that they can live as they please.

45 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Ultimately it is no concern of mine what anyone believes who takes the name of Christ and then sets about to distort doctrine whether they see it or not.

 

Mmmmm...

 

There is no misgiving or doubt in the prophetic ministry. It's all the rod or else the encouragement. There is not Mmmmm...

On a forum then its a difficult balance to make. In the sight and hearing of any true heresy it is a simple matter to try and correct - or else to rebuke - and even then to desire mercy.

I could simply ignore what is expressly said to myself on a forum - but that would be to deny that I can see and do see what things mean when they are spoken by living saints - being directed in their spiritual effect and is leading to harm. Perhaps I have even had a semblance of thought sometime that mercy would be better served by remaining silent - but that has never yet produced anything more than politeness and an endless demand for politeness in a parade that is Babylonian in character and has in truth little part in bringing glory to Christ - especially in His coming return.

I desire that all men are saved and thoroughly saved - even my enemies - but I am unable to refuse the Father and refuse my calling so as to become a mere spectator and worse - a participant in a polite parade that has it that the very reason why brethren so urgently desire peace is because they have some portion of its meaning themselves - and then to silently bear with the reality that the parade is corrupt and becoming increasingly against Christ. 

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

the prophetic ministry

Hhhmmmmmmm - I can find such on my internet browser, but where can I find this in scripture??

[Your closest friendnt]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:20 PM, Amigo42 said:

The more I learn about the historic and cultural context in which the Bible was written, the more I realize that we really don't know as much as we think.

What if people will be in heaven who we thought would not be like some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus?  This might seem heretical, but what if people are saved by the blood even if they don't realize it.  There are people who live righteous lives up to the knowledge they have.  Yes, Jesus is the only way.  However, the patriarchs did not know Jesus such as Moses, David, etc. Yet, these people are saved.  This is food for thought.

This is a very important question and somehow complicated. 

We must understand that Jesus Christ spoke to his contemporaries who were in the Covenant of Sina the descendants of Abraham through Issac to Jacob.  

More specifically he spoke to those who were listening to him and knew about him and were debating within themselves whether he is the Christ of God the promise  Messiah. 

To them who knew the scriptures and the promise of the Messiah the Christ of God, Jesus said something to them who had their sins forgiven according to the Law of Moses with the sacrifices offered in the Temple. 

Jesus told them: " If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins". 

Jesus by that time knew that he had to die first and then the Gospel will be preach to them "the forgiveness of sins in his blood". 

But Jesus kept it to himself as the time has not come yet, as he had not died yet on the Cross...

Because those who listen to him they at that time had their sins forgiven under the Law and if they would have died before the Cross they will not die in their sins...

Only if they die after the Cross and without faith in him will die in their sins.

And this is because at the time of Jesus Christ death on the Cross the Law finished everyone who had forgiveness of their sins through the Law and was alive or dead were found in their sins.

Even Abraham and Issac and Jacob and all the descendants of Jacob who had died before the Law was given and to whom their sins were not counted against them, but at the time of Jesus Christ death their sins were counted against them because at that time they were not anymore in the righteousness of Abraham but in their own righteousness and Abraham himself at the time of Jesus Christ death he found himself not in the imputed righteousness God gave to him when he believed in his promise in Genesis 15:6. 

Everyone had to believe in Jesus Christ after his death even everyone who had died before him to have their sins put under the blood of Jesus Christ when the Gospel was preached to them by Jesus Christ "the forgiveness of sins in his blood"immediately after his death on the Cross by Jesus Christ himself beginning first with Abraham and his descendants who were gathered to him after their death and then Jesus Christ Christ continue to preach the forgiveness of sins in his blood to everyone who had died before him because he died for the sins of the whole world. 

Jesus Christ had to preach the Gospel to all inclusively who had died before him within that window of the the time of his death on the Cross till the time of his resurrection.  

After that the disciples first and then everyone else who believed in him had to preached the Gospel to the rest of the world. 

We understand that all who had died before Jesus Christ had the chance to hear the Gospel and believe but we cannot say that for all the living after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

As not all had the chance to hear the Gospel and not just the echo of the Gospel but the Gospel in a way to be understood to warrant the charge or the accusation that they made a conscious decision to not believe which maybe  counted as a denial against them and they eventually died in that denial...

Because till the time of their death Jesus Christ was and is waiting for anyone with the denial in them to change their mind and believe in him and die with the faith in him.  

Edited October 4, 2021 by Your closest friendnt