What if others will be in heaven?

[Kelly2363]

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

Hhhmmmmmmm - I can find such on my internet browser, but where can I find this in scripture??

I found it in a prison cell in 1984 one year after the Internet was formed - if by internet we mean the TCP/IP protocol stack that began the formalisation of data communications in a shared environment. But in my solitary cell - I only had the Father and His will in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. What I mean by the prophetic ministry is the entirety of the Word of God in its living meaning. Though you know I also mean something rather more personal to my own calling. I understand your provocation and it is a small matter to me. 

[Kelly2363]

On 10/4/2021 at 4:47 AM, Josheb said:

What is the topic of this op? 

Would you please?  Try and make it op-relevant. 

The topic of this OP is a claim set into an uncovering or else an expression of uncovering by those who uncover and a spiritual meaning by those who intend spiritual meanings. It is defined in the claim itself at the beginning of the OP. As I don't set myself to uncover in that claim to knowing and increasingly knowing that which in its spiritual meaning produces a heresy -  further, and seeing that I am concerned with spiritual meanings and not culture and learning - I post according to the spiritual ambition and stated ambition of several posters in this OP - one of whom has given a very specific meaning that of itself has given what I could say a basis for saying it were I inclined to a heretical effect by expressing a fuller prophetic direction of the New Heavens and the New Earth - as he did.

I am not so inclined and so as I said - I won't say it. That doesn't seem too difficult to grasp!

Edited October 6, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling + Removed "forms"

[Desopixi Seilynam]

The patriarchs knew Jesus.

"For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and He shall stand at the last day, upon the earth.
And even if worms destroy this body and I die,
yet in my flesh shall I see God." Job 19:25-26

"my flesh will rest in hope, for You will not leave my soul
in Sheol, neither will You allow thy Holy One [the Messiah]
to see decay" Psalm 16:10
Paul says that the second part is indeed about Jesus;
Acts 13:35-37.
-------

"He that has my commands and keeps them,
he it is that loves me... and I will reveal myself to him"

"Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us,
and not to the world?
And Jesus answered and said, if a man love me,
he will keep my words, and my Father will love him,
and we will come unto him and make our abode with him"
John 14:21-24.

"You go into all the world and teach all nations....
teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you"
Matthew 28:19-20

Therefore we see a promise that to those who keep His commands,
He will reveal Himself to.
So one need not know His name, but rather His way of life.
If one is really living His way of life,
thinking that it is Gods way, then John 14:21-24 dictates that
Christ would reveal Himself to such a person.

[Kelly2363]

21 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, the op is about a single simply inquiry: Will others be in heaven? And "others" is defined as those outside of the Christian faith (Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus). And it is all predicated on two assumptions: 1) we don't know much about "historic and cultural context" and 2) Moses and other Old Testament personages did not know Jesus. 

That is the op. 

Irony. 

lol, no the op is not difficult to grasp. 

 

 

 

The op contains its own irony. The op asks about the salvation of "others". The reality Christians will be in heaven is redundant; it is tautological. Christians will be in heaven. Will non-Christians be in heaven? Normally the answer would be an immediate and unequivocal, "NO!" but the simple presuppositional fact of this very discussion is that the vast majority of us were previously non-Jewish outsiders to Christianity, outsiders to knowing Jesus salvifically, and we came from other theological perspectives. I was raised in  the Episcopal Church but as an adult I was a practicing Buddhist before coming to Christ salvifically. 

Yes, Buddhists will be in heaven . 

They won't still be Buddhists, though. They will have come to the Father through Christ, not the Four Noble Truths. 

The idea "we" don't know history or culture as prima facie false and absurdly so. The Bible is the most studied book in human history and as a consequence the surrounding history and contexts are also well-examined. I have learned casually about these things routinely through Bible study and preaching and teaching since I became a Christian nearly forty years ago but it is only within the last ten years or so that I've discovered the depths of resources available from those who've study ancient history and culture and the contexts they provide. And I say that to mild chagrin because my early years of secular study were in social psychology, sociology, and anthropology. There are literally scores of men and women, secular and redeemed, who have provided an enormous pile of information of ancient history. The idea "we" don't know is false. 

So too is the idea Old Testament persons did not know Jesus, or had know knowledge of the gospel. I have already provided a sampling of scripture pertaining to that fact so I won't repeat it here. 

So the op asks if "others" will be in heaven and the ironic truth of scripture is that the new covenant is entirely about the others having a covenant with God! 

1 Corinthians 12:2-3
 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:10-13
 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.  Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands—  remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 4:17-24
 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,  being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;  and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.  But you did not learn Christ in this way,  if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,  that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,  and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

And Paul's epistles are filled with God's counsel  on the challenges that faced former pagans living for Christ in a pagan culture where they were going to heaven and the others were not. Perhaps among the most subtle of this instructions relevant to this op is Colossians 4:5-6. 

Colossians 4:5-6
 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.  Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Why? 

Because none of us knows which of those outsiders to whom we speak grace might end up in heaven!

 

Lastly, the op is explicitly couched in ancient history and culture, what the Old Testament people  didn't know and whether "others" are going to be in heaven. This is muddy water. When asking "Will Muslims be in heaven?" we should clarify that so that it asks "Will Islam be in heaven?" (which if I understand correctly is the angle you were first taking) or "Will Muslims be converted to go to heaven?" So when the ambiguous questions about Muslims and the other others is properly discriminated the answers are not difficult. If we are asked to speculate on what happened in Asia or the Americas during the Old Testament and New Testament eras then any and all answers are going to be speculative to one degree or another because the Bible is largely (but not entirely) silent on that matter and something very important comes into play: the question of why we might be bothered by stuff we can't possibly know thousands of years ago. Some prayer is warranted because that person may have either a critical spirit wanting them to resist God or be under demonic influence preying upon the vulnerable lack of knowledge and understanding. No one here is going to know what happened to a specific Pakistani living in 500 BC or what that particular individual's eternal destiny might be but we do know there are only two options and they are dependent upon a single condition: knowing the Son as both Lord and Savior. The better question, or the better way to approach the inquiry of this op is the "Great Commission,"

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,  teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

Because that will bring all kinds of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and people from all walks, histories, cultures, beliefs, etc. to heaven. 

Yeah, I am fairly confident everyone understood that from the very first words of your very first post in this op. 

No, it's not. 

Fascinating!

[Amigo42]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

 

The op contains its own irony. The op asks about the salvation of "others". The reality Christians will be in heaven is redundant; it is tautological. Christians will be in heaven. Will non-Christians be in heaven? Normally the answer would be an immediate and unequivocal, "NO!" but the simple presuppositional fact of this very discussion is that the vast majority of us were previously non-Jewish outsiders to Christianity, outsiders to knowing Jesus salvifically, and we came from other theological perspectives. I was raised in  the Episcopal Church but as an adult I was a practicing Buddhist before coming to Christ salvifically. 

 

So, almost every group believes that "only" members of their group will experience the afterlife in heaven.  Muslims think that they'll be the only ones, Christians think that they'll be the only ones, and even within Christianity certain sects or denominations think that they'll be the only ones.  So, what I'm trying to say is, what if we're all wrong.  What if God has a glorious plan that we don't fully understand.  I mean, what do we really know besides what we're told.  Sometimes we only see the surface not beneath the surface.  It's just difficult to think that all people who have lived otherwise righteous lives will be doomed for "everlasting" fire for a truth they haven't even learned.  How about unborn babies?  They are innocent and did not have the chance to hear the word of Jesus.  Aren't people who live in the jungles innocent like them in the sense that they can't be held accountable for something they've never learned.  I'll be honest, I don't know the answers to these questions.  Maybe we'll never know in this life.  I just believe there is more to it that we think.

[Amigo42]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I think there's a red herring here that perhaps isn't recognized. It is not you or me that claims exclusivity; it is Jesus. Jesus, not Josh, said he's the only way. All the "great religions" have some guy (or gal) who made claims of exclusivity. They cannot all be correct. When it comes to exclusivity, only one of them can be correct; all others must be false. So either Jesus is true and correct or he is not. If he and he alone is the way the John 3:17-19 is true, not just John 14:6. If Mohammed or Buddha or Siddharta or David Koresh is the way then Jesus is not the way. 

I agree with you that they all cannot be correct.  That is not logical.  There is universal truth.  I'm just saying within that universal truth, how do we truly know all that God has planned.  I don't really know.  Jesus is indeed the only way, but again, what if it's possible for people to be saved by his blood even if they don't realize it?  How about unborn babies who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus?  This is what I mean.  There are areas that I think we may not fully understand in this life.  

[Kelly2363]

On 10/2/2021 at 5:20 PM, Amigo42 said:

The more I learn about the historic and cultural context in which the Bible was written, the more I realize that we really don't know as much as we think.

What if people will be in heaven who we thought would not be like some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus?  This might seem heretical, but what if people are saved by the blood even if they don't realize it.  There are people who live righteous lives up to the knowledge they have.  Yes, Jesus is the only way.  However, the patriarchs did not know Jesus such as Moses, David, etc. Yet, these people are saved.  This is food for thought.

 

Seeing as your opening comment to this OP has produced some agreement with its direction - whether asserted innocently or otherwise - you yourself say that the assertion (emboldened above) is a seeming heretical one. One would have to see that expression of yours - were you to be stating that, People will be in heaven who we thought would not be like some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus - (as an unqualified claim) - were heretical. But I am certain from your entire comment that that is in your own understanding already. The point at least in that regard of an unqualified assertion begs a question rather than demands belief.

Now in your last post you have said, "I mean, what do we really know besides what we're told."

If you are born again of the Spirit of God then you must qualify with the Scripture that no man has need of anyone to be his teacher - for we are all taught of God. And that is expressly to do with knowing Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is the sovereign act of God and all else is a process of being conformed to the Apostles teaching grounded in Scripture. 

So. all the comments in this OP may have a validity - as all are confessing Christ - including yourself. Yet the deeper things are not hidden when the Lord opens a way into seeing them. And in that regard that too must be taught by God and not read in books. Whereas your opening sentence implies books and not discernment. I wonder if you do see what has been said in this OP (disregarding my own comments), and how those beliefs form a spiritual claim - that in some part upholds your concern as begged in your emboldened comment. And I don't mean children or babes that die before accountability.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Kelly2363
Added last sentence.

[Dennis1209]

9 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

So, almost every group believes that "only" members of their group will experience the afterlife in heaven.  Muslims think that they'll be the only ones, Christians think that they'll be the only ones, and even within Christianity certain sects or denominations think that they'll be the only ones.  So, what I'm trying to say is, what if we're all wrong.  What if God has a glorious plan that we don't fully understand.  I mean, what do we really know besides what we're told.  Sometimes we only see the surface not beneath the surface.  It's just difficult to think that all people who have lived otherwise righteous lives will be doomed for "everlasting" fire for a truth they haven't even learned.  How about unborn babies?  They are innocent and did not have the chance to hear the word of Jesus.  Aren't people who live in the jungles innocent like them in the sense that they can't be held accountable for something they've never learned.  I'll be honest, I don't know the answers to these questions.  Maybe we'll never know in this life.  I just believe there is more to it that we think.

Perhaps Jesus had this in mind when He said: Matthew 7:13 (KJV) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Facts are pesky little critters, our lives are but a whisp of vapor, gone as fast as we arrived in eternal terms. Once we die, there are no second chances, our fate is sealed forever. That is unless you are a Catholic in Purgatory, being reincarnated as a glorious rat, monkey or cow; or occupied with 72 virgins.

My point is: We are given one chance to get it right. If we deceive ourselves and do not chose the strait gate; the end, Fini, we got what we asked for, separation from the one true living Gog. 

Many times, I've addressed my thoughts on here about children, the age of accountability, people with mental disabilities, people who never heard the Gospel, so I'll forgo that. 

No other literature or religious texts, claim to have been the creator or everything that is, the "I AM." And backs it up with roughly 1,500 prophecies, telling history in advance, much less, 100% accurate, 100% of the time.

Our generation alone, witnessed two prophetic super signs: Israel born as a nation in one day [May 14, 1948], and the 1967 Israeli Six-Day war. Where Israel once again took complete control of Jerusalem, and the mountains of Israel with their border land expansion. 

What are the statistical odds of just one of those prophecies occurring, much less two?

Yes, we can know this side of heaven, and not have to wonder or worry about them. God is love, in Him there is no darkness at all. He is a righteous God, meaning He does the right, just and fair thing each and every time; according to His will and purposes. 

Show me a child born without a measure of light in him or her. Not learning or being taught right from wrong, they know instinctively right from wrong and make choices. It's our inborn sin nature. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Amigo42 said:

I agree with you that they all cannot be correct.  That is not logical.  There is universal truth.  I'm just saying within that universal truth, how do we truly know all that God has planned.  I don't really know.  Jesus is indeed the only way, but again, what if it's possible for people to be saved by his blood even if they don't realize it?  How about unborn babies who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus?  This is what I mean.  There are areas that I think we may not fully understand in this life.  

Your questions are very easily answer and in fact Jesus has already answered them during his ministry before the Cross. 

[David1701]

21 hours ago, Waggles said:

Romans 2:12  For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 
13  For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 
14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 
15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 
16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 

The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all his innermost parts.  Proverbs 20:27

And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.  Hebrews 4:13

What this shows is that man's conscience will condemn him, even if he has never heard of the law, on the day of judgment.  Legal righteousness, whether the law, or conscience, demands perfect obedience.  One sin results in condemnation, never mind the fact that everyone sins every day (in thought, word and deed).

This is why we need to repent and believe in the Saviour, otherwise we would all be lost.