Catholics and Salvation

[Guest mattcruise]

21 pages, so sorry for not reading them all.

I have several catholic friends, and I believe they are saved because they accepted Jesus Christ. However I believe they have very little in the way of a relationship with the Lord, and I blame that on the beliefs of the Catholic church like putting men such as priests and popes in the way of our Lord. My friends go to church and I've went with them once. It had no joy or love there. It was so dark and cold (atmosphere) and the priest barely spoke on anything, and they quickly did some traditional things and it was over. It was like something they had to get over with once a week instead of a place they wanted to go.

It's so boring to. The priest, who was new I was told, was THE most boring man I have heard speak ever. God bless him, but He was boring. Ever hear of the comedian Emo Phillips. If you've seen the movie UHF He's the guy who get's his thumb cut off. He sounded exactly like that guy (call ... me ... mister BUTterfingers.). After the service my friends were talking about how much more outgoing this new priest was. They weren't even sarcastic. I made sure.

Anyway back to the point. Forgive me if this has been brought up, I mean 21 pages is lot to read. I heard recently, that hundreds of years ago the Pope declared that Catholics cannot read the bible, and that in the 60's it was changed to they can read it, but can't interpret it (meaning have any thought for themselves what a passage may mean). Is this true?

[Trust & Obey]

Trust & Obey said:

"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."

Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.

He "begat" the church????  Whew!  I thought Christ "begat" the church????

And, it is obvious from Titus 1:4, that Paul is speaking in a more personal tone than simply to the church as a whole.

Peace,

Sis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are absolutely correct in the "more personal tone" thing. I have "begat" people into the faith through leading them to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, I am their "father in the faith" in the same way Paul was to the Corinthians.

Catholics call their priests "father" in a spiritual sense.

Fiosh, let me ask you something... your priest that you call "father..." is he the one that shared the gospel with you when you were dead in sins and thus "begat" you into the faith?

Here is another example of Paul using the "begat/begotten" term to refer to one whom he brought into the faith:

Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:

This is not the context that Catholics use the term "father."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmmm..............when was I "dead in sin" ?

I need to understand your question a bit more before I can answer intelligently.

Thanks,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fiosh, do you know what it is to be "born-again?" Are you born-again?

Can you point to a specific time in your life when you crossed from death unto life by the grace of God?

[Fiosh]

Trust & Obey said:

"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."

Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.

He "begat" the church????

[Aim_64bIT]

How would I know?

The word of God states that if you must do the will of the most High to be saved. If you do the will you will know it. If you are, in any ways, in the process of being saved, then you have not done the will of the Father.

John 7:17 KJV

(17) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Mark 3:35 KJV

(35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

This scribe had not done the will of the Father. His righteousness counted for naught to get him into heaven. He was not born again.

Mark 12:32-34 KJV

(32) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

(33) And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

(34) And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

These people profess to know the Lord, yet here they are pleading their works before the throne of the most High. Perhaps they were not far from the kingdom of God? They were not born again. If they had done the will of the Father they would have been resting on righteousness.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Edited September 8, 2005 by Aim_64bIT

[Fiosh]

How would I know?

The word of God states that if you must do the will of the most High to be saved. If you do the will you will know it. If you are, in any ways, in the process of being saved, then you have not done the will of the Father.

John 7:17 KJV

(17) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Mark 3:35 KJV

(35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How will I know if I am doing His will?

[Aim_64bIT]

How will I know if I am doing His will?

You would be regenerated instantaneously. You would know it. Have you received the Holy Spirit?

[Fiosh]

How will I know if I am doing His will?

You would be regenerated instantaneously. You would know it. Have you received the Holy Spirit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But, HOW would I know?

[Aim_64bIT]

But, HOW would I know?

Because the Holy Spirit allows you to believe and know it. You have been resisting him this whole time. Highlight the scripture please.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 6:40 KJV

(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:28 KJV

(28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John 6:29 KJV

(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:3 KJV

(3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV

(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I love this verse. If you know it you can feel it.

1 John 5:13 KJV

(13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Trust & Obey]

Trust & Obey said:

"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."

Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.

He "begat" the church????  Whew!  I thought Christ "begat" the church????

And, it is obvious from Titus 1:4, that Paul is speaking in a more personal tone than simply to the church as a whole.

Peace,

Sis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are absolutely correct in the "more personal tone" thing. I have "begat" people into the faith through leading them to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, I am their "father in the faith" in the same way Paul was to the Corinthians.

Catholics call their priests "father" in a spiritual sense.

Fiosh, let me ask you something... your priest that you call "father..." is he the one that shared the gospel with you when you were dead in sins and thus "begat" you into the faith?

Here is another example of Paul using the "begat/begotten" term to refer to one whom he brought into the faith:

Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:

This is not the context that Catholics use the term "father."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmmm..............when was I "dead in sin" ?

I need to understand your question a bit more before I can answer intelligently.

Thanks,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fiosh, do you know what it is to be "born-again?" Are you born-again?

Can you point to a specific time in your life when you crossed from death unto life by the grace of God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How would I know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fiosh, the Bible says that we have all been born in sin.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We are all under the curse of sin. We inherited it from Adam and it isn't due to anything you or I have ever done. You sin because you were born a sinner. You are not a sinner because you sin. Do you understand the difference? We are born with the sin-disease.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

But, God provided a remedy. That remedy is the blood of Jesus Christ that satisfies the just righteousness of a holy God. Jesus died in our place.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice how it says "the wages of sin." What is a wage? A wage is something you earn. You deserve a wage for something you have done. In this case, what you have done is sin... and the wages of that is death. Both physical and spiritual.

Then, it goes on to say "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Do you see how eternal life is a gift? Can you earn a gift? No, you cannot. It would be insulting to the Gift-Giver (God) to try to pay Him for the gift.

If you gave your brother a gift on his birthday and he pulled out his wallet and said to you "how much do I owe you?" how would that make you feel?

We can never pay for eternal life. We can never earn it or warrant it in any way.

Rather, we humbly reach out our hands and simply receive the gift.

When you have done that your spirit, which up until that point has been dead in sin is then "made alive in Christ(Eph 2:5)."

Being "made alive" means something beforehand was dead. It was your spirit that was dead. After your spirit comes to life through regeneration you are "born-again" or, literally, born from above.

After this happens you are a new creation in Christ!

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

You are no longer the same person you were before being born-again. You will have a new spiritual nature that will want to please God, and it will hate/despise/deplore sin in every form.

God's Spirit will be living in you and will lead and guide you into a new direction. Your life will overflow with the love and joy of the Lord. You will come to treasure His presence above all else.

Fiosh, can you identify with any of the above?

[Fiosh]

But, HOW would I know?

Because the Holy Spirit allows you to believe and know it. You have been resisting him this whole time. Highlight the scripture please.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 6:40 KJV

(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:28 KJV

(28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John 6:29 KJV

(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:3 KJV

(3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV

(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I love this verse. If you know it you can feel it.

1 John 5:13 KJV

(13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm trying to understand you, but it's very vague.

How does it "feel"?