Catholics and Salvation

[Fiosh]

I take Him literally also...are you trying to insult me?

[Aim_64bIT]

I happen to take Jesus literally.

Be perfect, keep the commandments, and love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart and you will inherit eternal life.

Matthew 5:48 KJV

(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 10:25-28 KJV

(25) And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

(26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

(27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

(28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

But for brothers and sisters still in Adam, they might want to be.... you know.... born again?

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

John 3:3 KJV

(3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV

(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James 1:18 KJV

(18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 5:24 KJV

(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from d.eath unto life.

If you are in the process of being saved and not saved already, you need to repent and obey the gospel.

The scripture has a built cross-reference.

Revelation 2:17 KJV

(17) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

John 16:33 KJV

(33) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 John 4:4 KJV

(4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

John 6:35 KJV

(35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Luke 10:20 KJV

(20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

When you read John 3:16 or any of the other numerous salvation verses and you say within yourself, thats not really what he means..... thats disbelief!

[Fiosh]

This is why I don't like dealing with a lot of Christian-themed forums. You have people that love to cut and paste things, but they never actually discuss anything, they don't make any points. They think they are saying something or being clever and they just aren't.

Instead of cut and pasting and not making any point, how about you tell me what is wrong with two canons mentioned and the beginning on the thread and we go from there.

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Please note that Halifax FIRST posted the canons.

I don't think he's Catholic, but you'll have to ask him.

[Trust & Obey]

I take Him literally also...are you trying to insult me?  What are you saying?  How does this relate to the DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RCC AND PROTESTANT IDEAS OF SALVATION???

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Halifax said:

By giving Catholics the true, simple, God-breathed Gospel...we are feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and helping the sick.

I assumed this was your interpretation of Matt 25???? NO????

Gotta go.........more later. I'm only on a short break.

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Ah...the wonderful world of circles.

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NO this is not a circle. This is called getting down to the meat of the matter. You believe what is stated above, Fiosh says she believes that Jesus meant you need to literally feed the hungry, clothe the poor etc.

In your scenario then, to avoid being sent into the pit, one would need to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, otherwise you would not be doing what God commanded. Is that your belief that you must have faith and spread the gospel? If this is not your belief then you still have not addressed Matt. 25. God is very clear if you don't do those things you will be considered a goat.

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As an Evangelical Protestant I believe Jesus was speaking literally. He was showing that our faith must accompany works (like James 2).

The debate isn't whether or not we should feed and clothe the poor. The debate is whether feeding and clothing saves someone.

There are many philanthropists who give great sums of money and much of their time to humanitarian causes. This does not save anyone.

But, someone who is born-again of the spirit should most certainly be engaged in meeting the physical needs of those around them. This is what James speaks of and Paul says that we were saved for such things (Eph 2:10).

But, as Ephesians 2:10 says we were created in Christ for good works, it is noteworthy that before the good works cames... we were created in Christ Jesus.

Hence, the works come after salvation. Therefore, how can works merit salvation in any way?

The answer is that works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Above, salvation has occured. It is a DONE-DEAL.

Below, we have the results of that salvation.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The key word in Eph 2:10 above is "unto." We are not created "by" good works. We are created "unto" good works. The word "unto" can also be translated "for."

So, being created "for good works" is a lot different than being created "by good works."

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You are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth considering all I did was post a passage and ask your interpretation.

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Fiosh, I wasn't trying to put words in anyones mouth.

What I was doing was answering your post about the literalness of the passage. As a Protestant I believe as you do regarding that passage.

Then, I went on to explain how I believe it fits in with the overall plan of salvation.

That's all.

[Fiosh]

I take Him literally also...are you trying to insult me?

[Fiosh]

Maybe it would help if we define some terms.

I'll post the "Catholic definition". If yours is different, you post yours.

That way we can be sure we are comparing apples to apples.

Let's start with justification----

Justification: "the gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" (Rom 3:22). Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."

By grace we repent of our sins and turn to God (conversion). In this way we accept the righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. We are in this way reconciled with God and given the grace to walk in His ways.

But this is not yet "salvation"

"Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification...But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." Rom 6: 19, 22

Are we agreed?

Love,

Fiosh

[Assisi]

"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANETHMA."-Council of Trent, Canon 12

"If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the increase, LET HIM BE ANETHMA."-Council of Trent, Canon 33

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Justification is defined by the RCC as: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" (Rom 3:22 cf. 6:3-4) Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctifiction and renewal of the interior man.

Through the power of the HS we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself. Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4

The first work of the grace of the HS is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Mt 4:17.

Justification detaches man from sin and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful inititative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God- frees him from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Justification is also the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Chris. Righteousness here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.

Justification is confered in baptism, the sacrament of fiath. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just (righteous) by the power of his mercy. Rom 3:21-26

Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent.

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight. Council of Trent: DS 1525 (Denziger)

Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." St. Augustine, In Jo ev. 72, 3: PL 35,1823

He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," (Cf. Rom 7:22, Eph. 3:16) justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Rom 6:19, 22)

Evangelical scholar Alister McGrath writes at the conclusion of his doctoral dissertation IUSTITIA DEI: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification (Cambridge Univ Press, 1986), Volume 1, Chapter 5, Section 19 --

"The significance of the Protestant distinction between -iustificatio- and -regeneratio- is that a FUNDAMENTAL DISCONTINUITY has been introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EXISTED BEFORHowever, it will be clear that the medieval period was astonishingly FAITHFUL to the teaching of Augustine on the question of the nature of justification, WHERE THE REFORMERS DEPARTED FROM IT

The essential feature of the Reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between JUSTIFICATION and REGENERATION. Although it must be emphasised that this distinction is purely notional, in that it is impossible to separate the two within the context of the -ordo salutis- [the order of salvation], the essential point is that a notional distinction is made WHERE NONE HAD BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

"A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EVER EXISTED, OR EVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED, BEFORE [my emphasis]. The Reformation understanding of the NATURE of justification -- as opposed to its mode -- must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological NOVUM."

According to this Christ decieved all Christians about salvation till the 16th Century.

[Aim_64bIT]

But this is not yet "salvation"

This is disbelief. Please do not twist the scripture to fit Religion doctrine. Just believe the word of God.

John 1:12 KJV

(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 5:24 KJV

(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from d.eath unto life.

1 John 5:13 KJV

(13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

So tell us, Fiosh, when are you going to be at long last saved? Can you stand in front of a mirror and, pointing to youself, tell us you are going to be the one that had a hand in your salvation?

Romans 4:4-5 KJV

(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV

(2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Romans 10:9 KJV

(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the d.ead, thou shalt be saved.

[Fiosh]

But this is not yet "salvation"

This is disbelief. Please do not twist the scripture to fit Religion doctrine. Just believe the word of God.

John 1:12 KJV

(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 5:24 KJV

(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from d.eath unto life.

1 John 5:13 KJV

(13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

So tell us, Fiosh, when are you going to be at long last saved? Can you stand in front of a mirror and, pointing to youself, tell us you are going to be the one that had a hand in your salvation?

Romans 4:4-5 KJV

(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV

(2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Romans 10:9 KJV

(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the d.ead, thou shalt be saved.

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I am trying really hard to have a rational clear discussion. When you post Scripture it's ok. When I post Scripture I "twist" it. If I don't post Scripture , I'm told to use Scripture.

It's a bit frustrating.

I'm not asking you to agree with me. All I'm asking is your definition of Justification.

Now. May I please have your definition of justification?

Thanks,

Fiosh

[Aim_64bIT]

Justification is grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is instantaneous. It is a gift; therefore, it must be received. Saved individuals work from the cross, not to the cross. Fruit is the result of being saved: for it is written, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

Question: What is righteousness?

Proverbs 11:4 KJV

(4) Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from d.eath.

Answer:

a. Doing good works unto salvation

b. Keeping the Ten Commandments

c. The Lord Jesus Christ