The Temple of Flesh or the Temple of Stone?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

What then do you think of Exodus 29? It seems like that's exactly what the Tabernacle was for. In verses 43-46 the language is without ambiguity. 

 

Yes. I don't have a ton of time this morning, work, work, work....

But initially that was certainly true. In fact for many years the glory of God was in the Tabernacle and even in the Temple after the wandering was over. That of course changed as the plan never allowed for that to be a permanent condition, rather Christ was to be exalted above all things including any Temple or liturgy. 

So then since Christ is now preeminent in all things any temple of any kind has no real significance. I would say including all places of worship anywhere in the world. We are taught we are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and the Temple of God and so brick and stone and steel are not and cannot be spiritually important in the God/man relationship. 

The question is what is the significance of another Jewish Temple on Mount Moriah? Or anywhere in Israel?

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. I don't have a ton of time this morning, work, work, work....

But initially that was certainly true. In fact for many years the glory of God was in the Tabernacle and even in the Temple after the wandering was over. That of course changed as the plan never allowed for that to be a permanent condition, rather Christ was to be exalted above all things including any Temple or liturgy. 

So then since Christ is now preeminent in all things any temple of any kind has no real significance. I would say including all places of worship anywhere in the world. We are taught we are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and the Temple of God and so brick and stone and steel are not and cannot be spiritually important in the God/man relationship. 

The question is what is the significance of another Jewish Temple on Mount Moriah? Or anywhere in Israel?

Government. In Genesis 1:26-28 God makes man and He gives him dominion over earth and its environs. Where shall that man dwell? Unlike God, Who is a Spirit, man is physical. He is made from the earth, to be nourished by the earth and his job is to rule the earth. The unit of Government is a CITY (Lk.19:17-19). And within this city lives the king of that city. He occupies a HOUSE in that city. David's house is built but the God of "heaven and EARTH" has no House. David purposes in his heart that God should have a HOUSE. God allows him to prepare the plans and materials, but his son, Solomon, must build it.

The purpose of a house is primarily to protect from the elements. God is no different except that the elements, being unholy, defile Him if He allowed it. So His House is built a special way. It is built so that He may maintain His holiness but still draw men to Himself. The Tabernacle/Temple has a Veil and a High Priest - one to protect God's holiness and the other to mediate for Israel. Hard on the Veil is the Altar of Incense which speaks of Christ carrying our prayers up to God. The Temple of the Millennium does the same. The Nations pour into Jerusalem to learn of God, and our Lord Jesus, Emanuel, carries their prayers to God. 1st Timothy 2:5 says there is ONE Mediator between God and MEN (all men) - the MAN Jesus 

Isa.56:6-8

⁶  Also the sons of the alien, that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast to my covenant; ⁷  even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar: for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.

Micah 4:1-2

¹  But it shall come to pass in the end of days that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and the peoples shall flow unto it. ²  And many nations shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and Jehovah’s word from Jerusalem.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Government. In Genesis 1:26-28 God makes man and He gives him dominion over earth and its environs. Where shall that man dwell? Unlike God, Who is a Spirit, man is physical. He is made from the earth, to be nourished by the earth and his job is to rule the earth. The unit of Government is a CITY (Lk.19:17-19). And within this city lives the king of that city. He occupies a HOUSE in that city. David's house is built but the God of "heaven and EARTH" has no House. David purposes in his heart that God should have a HOUSE. God allows him to prepare the plans and materials, but his son, Solomon, must build it.

The purpose of a house is primarily to protect from the elements. God is no different except that the elements, being unholy, defile Him if He allowed it. So His House is built a special way. It is built so that He may maintain His holiness but still draw men to Himself. The Tabernacle/Temple has a Veil and a High Priest - one to protect God's holiness and the other to mediate for Israel. Hard on the Veil is the Altar of Incense which speaks of Christ carrying our prayers up to God. The Temple of the Millennium does the same. The Nations pour into Jerusalem to learn of God, and our Lord Jesus, Emanuel, carries their prayers to God. 1st Timothy 2:5 says there is ONE Mediator between God and MEN (all men) - the MAN Jesus 

Isa.56:6-8

⁶  Also the sons of the alien, that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast to my covenant; ⁷  even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar: for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.

Micah 4:1-2

¹  But it shall come to pass in the end of days that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and the peoples shall flow unto it. ²  And many nations shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and Jehovah’s word from Jerusalem.

Sure. I guess I was more looking for a clear separation between the known Temple of God as Paul describes it and as it is right now and the Temple where the man of sin 'sits', showing himself to be God.

I don't know the hard facts about what exactly goes on in the millennium and all the details of what it's going to look like. There is a lot of general language about overall concepts and I get that, but there are lots of gaps and I try not to fill those. You may have insight I lack in that area so you're probably accurate. 

I think you're saying the Temple is in the millennium. I see God's house come down from heaven but I see no Temple in it.

But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. - Rev 21

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure. I guess I was more looking for a clear separation between the known Temple of God as Paul describes it and as it is right now and the Temple where the man of sin 'sits', showing himself to be God.

I don't know the hard facts about what exactly goes on in the millennium and all the details of what it's going to look like. There is a lot of general language about overall concepts and I get that, but there are lots of gaps and I try not to fill those. You may have insight I lack in that area so you're probably accurate. 

I think you're saying the Temple is in the millennium. I see God's house come down from heaven but I see no Temple in it.

But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. - Rev 21

You've addressed an important point. When God made man, He actually had four purposes with man:

1. Man was to be in the image and likeness of God to display God to the fullest extent (Romans 1 says that the creature makes the things of God known)
2. Man was be a "help-meet", or a "companion up to the standard of" the Man Jesus (Ephesians 5 says that marriage is the picture of a reality - Christ and the Church)
3. Man was to first subdue and then rule the earth (The previous king, Lucifer, had brought disorder)
4. Man was to "fence about and bring to order" (lit. Heb.) a Garden of Fellowship between God and man

Now, Since God is Almighty and His councils are immutable, we would expect to see these four things achieved in the fulness of time. And if we follow 2nd Peter 1:20, that is, not interpreting the Bible with private thoughts, and if we are disciplined to only interpret scripture with scripture, the New Jerusalem, if taken literally, produces absurdities. The city is 2,000 kilometers cubed, the City is a Bride and Israel are pearls with the Tree of Life (singular) on both sides of the (singular) street of it. But if we heed John's introductory verse, and apply the rest of the bible as the basis for understanding it, a wonder, all-inclusive picture emerges - a picture that would have taken a thousand pages to describe. 

Rev.1:1 says; The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

The word "signified" means transmitted by signs. In John Chapter 2 our Lord Jesus really did change water into wine, but scripture calls it a "sign". That is, a "sign" in the Bible is a real thing but which depicts truths. So, if we apply ourselves to the rest of the Bible, we see the following;

• The City is heavenly in origin but on a "renewed" earth (lit. Gk.)
• The City is Christ's Wife. This can only be the Church. He is a precious Stone and the Church is like Him - precious stones
• The City has walls like Eden was to be fenced. It is the consummate place were God's holiness is upheld when He meets with His creature. All defiling things are outside the Walls
• The City has the shape of the Holy of Holies - a Cube
• The City has the number of God's People - 12
• The City has three glories; (i) God's glory, (ii) Christ's glory and (iii) its own glory (created by the Church). Thus, the creature displays God
• The City is God's House - He dwells in the Church
• God is the House - all inside dwell IN Him
• The City is measured by angels - that is, it is built in resurrection life, for men in resurrection are like the angels
• The City is for ruling
• The City has Gates which let in some of the Nations and refuse others
• These Gates are not the city but belong to the overall function of the City. Precious stones are different to pearls
• These Gates must also be a people of God because they are 12
• There is no death - death has been subdued as the last enemy by the general resurrection of the "rest of the dead"
• There is justice - those who went against God and man face the Lake of Fire and are refused audience with God

... and so on. We have, by a "sign", a wonderfully informing picture of the consummation of God's plan with the earth and Man.

• In the wilderness we had a "sojourning Tabernacle". God's House was transitory in enemy territory
• In occupied Israel we had a fixed House in which God dwelt
• IN Christ we have a "Spiritual Temple for aGod Who is a Spirit", but made of a living Man
• In the Church we have an ENLARGED House of men in the flesh which is a "sojourning House"
• IN the Millennium we have a House made with hands for Emanuel to live and rule from - physical Jerusalem
• In the Millennium we have a House that has the "keys to the Kingdom" - the Church - for ruling the Nations

On the New Earth, we have the same, but perfected and consummate. Since Abraham's seed is promised Canaan as an "everlasting possession" things on earth will nt be much different from the Millennium except all things will be "NEW". The Greek word means "made pristine".
 

[AandW_Rootbeer]

On 11/6/2021 at 3:49 AM, Diaste said:

1 Cor 3

"Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple."

1 Cor 6

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God?"

2 Cor 6

"What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God."

The above is indisputable fact.

But so is this:

2 Thess 2

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

So if the body corporate is the only Temple of God  then the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will have to unseat God in His own Temple by invading the physical existence of every believer and in effect possessing millions of individuals.

It's more than obvious the 'he' in 2 Thess 2 has no such power or authority to body check the Holy Spirit out of His own house, a house and home decreed by our Father to be His dwelling place. Ergo, this Temple of the body corporate and individual is not the Temple in which the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will seat himself and declare himself God.

So which Temple is it? Since the Holy Spirit and our Father do not any longer inhabit a Temple of stone, as in ancient times, this 'he' can only ascend and seat himself in a Temple of stone. Therefore there must be a stone Temple ostensibly dedicated to God, but not sanctioned by our Father, a Temple of pretense and unapproved ritual wholly outside God's desires, intent, purpose and the truth of the real Temple and it's natural existence.

So 'when' is the 2 Thess 2 Temple? I would offer a parallel. If it's been established the true Temple of God and the dwelling of the Holy Spirit is the body corporate and individual, and that was true in the 1st century and it is true today, then it must be the true Temple exists now in 2021. If the truth Paul taught about the real Temple spans 20 centuries the prophecy of 2 Thess 2 can also span the centuries; and did not require a 1st century fulfillment.

That and the fact the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement has been working on this since 1967 and has everything required to build another Temple, is quite telling.

Bless the Lord!

He is coming!

The Temple Movement

Every year, a growing religious movement called Return to the Mount ('Chozrim leHar') stages missions to bring goat kids on top of Temple Mount in order to carry out a ritual sacrifice, as practiced thousands of years ago. 

The radical activists dress in ancient white attire, and after repeatedly attempting to enter the site that was once hope to the Jewish temple, eventually carry out the ceremony outside the esplanade. 

The Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram el-Sharif, is the third holiest site in Islam. Loud prayer of another faith is currently prohibited by the Islamic authorities, and access to Jews is regulated by Israeli forces. 

Israeli security forces regularly accompany groups of Jewish worshipers up to the mount, which sits on top of the Western Wall, where they carry out prayers under strict guard.

 

Once you've finished reading ^

You understand there is No physical Temple, No physical Altar, No Holy of Holies, etc...and still, the Jews are performing Ritual Sin Offering.

 

Theoretically Speaking here, if the Jews don't need a Physical Temple and Altar to continue their Traditional Sacrifice and Sin Offering, then...

2 Thess 2

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

Does Not need to be a Physical Temple and Physical Throne!!

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by AandW_Rootbeer

[WilliamL]

What some people seem to be missing/ignoring here is the original prophecy by Jesus in Matthew 24, and its context.

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place [topo/spot hagio/holy]... 21 then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the kosmos/world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [This rules out the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D.] ... 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Again no such events occurred in 66-73.]"

Jesus was quoting Daniel 12:11-12 : And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.

We must remember that the Church was never revealed to the OT prophets: it was "a mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints." [Col. 1:26] Daniel was NOT prophesying about any spiritual abomination of desolation being set up in a spiritual place. Therefore, neither was Jesus when quoting him. The "holy place" must be understood according to the physical context of the pre-Christian Jewish prophet Daniel.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

25 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Once you've finished reading scripture.....

.....you understand nothing happening today has anything to do with Biblical eschatology.

Because this is the Delusional Eternity after the Great White Throne Judgement?

It would require Delusion to believe as such!!

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

The Temple Movement

Every year, a growing religious movement called Return to the Mount ('Chozrim leHar') stages missions to bring goat kids on top of Temple Mount in order to carry out a ritual sacrifice, as practiced thousands of years ago. 

The radical activists dress in ancient white attire, and after repeatedly attempting to enter the site that was once hope to the Jewish temple, eventually carry out the ceremony outside the esplanade. 

The Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram el-Sharif, is the third holiest site in Islam. Loud prayer of another faith is currently prohibited by the Islamic authorities, and access to Jews is regulated by Israeli forces. 

Israeli security forces regularly accompany groups of Jewish worshipers up to the mount, which sits on top of the Western Wall, where they carry out prayers under strict guard.

 

Once you've finished reading ^

You understand there is No physical Temple, No physical Altar, No Holy of Holies, etc...and still, the Jews are performing Ritual Sin Offering.

 

Theoretically Speaking here, if the Jews don't need a Physical Temple and Altar to continue their Traditional Sacrifice and Sin Offering, then...

2 Thess 2

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

Does Not need to be a Physical Temple and Physical Throne!!

 

 

 

Except for 2 Thess 2 says, "he will sit in the temple of God". So if that doesn't mean a physical Temple what does it mean? How does the man of sin sit in a Temple if there is no Temple?

Edited November 12, 2021 by Diaste

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Context. 

To the Jews the temple of God was a brick and mortarless temple built by human hands. 
 

To the Christians they were the temple of God that God built. 

True. The Body corporate and individual is the only true Temple of God and the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Is Paul saying this lawless man would seat himself in the Jerusalem temple, or in the temple of Christ? 

I'm going to go with the stone Temple. If the man of sin sits in the true Temple of God and the Holy Spirit then God is not powerful enough to stop the usurping of His chosen dwelling place. 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

There are details in the 2 Thessalonians epistle that help answer that question. There is also content in that letter that preclude the event from being in the far distant future. One example would be the implicit urgency with which Paul is instructing his readers. Another example would be their knowing what was holding back the lawless man. Another example would be the indisputable fact Paul is telling the original readers about themselves; things they are experiencing, things for which they need to prepare, things they need to avoid, things they know. Another example is the larger context because in the previous chapter Paul plainly stated the judgment had already started. And..... the fact is there's not a single word in the chapter or the entire epistle anywhere stating any of it is in the far distant future, much less the 21st century. 

The only context that matters in the first 8 verses of 2 Thess 2 is the very first verse; "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering together to Him." specifically directed to 'brothers'. That's what Paul expounds upon at this moment.

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

The only way to reach a far-distant interpretation is through a series of assumptions and eisegetic inferences. The only way to reach a far-distant futuristic interpretation is to remove the verse from its surrounding text and accompanying contexts and splice it together with other verses that were also removed from their respectively surrounding texts and accompanying contexts. 

You mean other than none of what Paul said in 2 Thess 2:1-8 has yet come to pass?

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

2 Thessalonians 1:3-12
"We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.  This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.  For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.  To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."

 

Everything that follows is built on the words opening the epistle.

This doesn't address the question of the OP. I mean, it's all true and profound but strays from the focus here.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You've addressed an important point. When God made man, He actually had four purposes with man:

1. Man was to be in the image and likeness of God to display God to the fullest extent (Romans 1 says that the creature makes the things of God known)
2. Man was be a "help-meet", or a "companion up to the standard of" the Man Jesus (Ephesians 5 says that marriage is the picture of a reality - Christ and the Church)
3. Man was to first subdue and then rule the earth (The previous king, Lucifer, had brought disorder)
4. Man was to "fence about and bring to order" (lit. Heb.) a Garden of Fellowship between God and man

Now, Since God is Almighty and His councils are immutable, we would expect to see these four things achieved in the fulness of time. And if we follow 2nd Peter 1:20, that is, not interpreting the Bible with private thoughts, and if we are disciplined to only interpret scripture with scripture, the New Jerusalem, if taken literally, produces absurdities. The city is 2,000 kilometers cubed, the City is a Bride and Israel are pearls with the Tree of Life (singular) on both sides of the (singular) street of it. But if we heed John's introductory verse, and apply the rest of the bible as the basis for understanding it, a wonder, all-inclusive picture emerges - a picture that would have taken a thousand pages to describe. 

Rev.1:1 says; The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

The word "signified" means transmitted by signs. In John Chapter 2 our Lord Jesus really did change water into wine, but scripture calls it a "sign". That is, a "sign" in the Bible is a real thing but which depicts truths. So, if we apply ourselves to the rest of the Bible, we see the following;

• The City is heavenly in origin but on a "renewed" earth (lit. Gk.)
• The City is Christ's Wife. This can only be the Church. He is a precious Stone and the Church is like Him - precious stones
• The City has walls like Eden was to be fenced. It is the consummate place were God's holiness is upheld when He meets with His creature. All defiling things are outside the Walls
• The City has the shape of the Holy of Holies - a Cube
• The City has the number of God's People - 12
• The City has three glories; (i) God's glory, (ii) Christ's glory and (iii) its own glory (created by the Church). Thus, the creature displays God
• The City is God's House - He dwells in the Church
• God is the House - all inside dwell IN Him
• The City is measured by angels - that is, it is built in resurrection life, for men in resurrection are like the angels
• The City is for ruling
• The City has Gates which let in some of the Nations and refuse others
• These Gates are not the city but belong to the overall function of the City. Precious stones are different to pearls
• These Gates must also be a people of God because they are 12
• There is no death - death has been subdued as the last enemy by the general resurrection of the "rest of the dead"
• There is justice - those who went against God and man face the Lake of Fire and are refused audience with God

... and so on. We have, by a "sign", a wonderfully informing picture of the consummation of God's plan with the earth and Man.

• In the wilderness we had a "sojourning Tabernacle". God's House was transitory in enemy territory
• In occupied Israel we had a fixed House in which God dwelt
• IN Christ we have a "Spiritual Temple for aGod Who is a Spirit", but made of a living Man
• In the Church we have an ENLARGED House of men in the flesh which is a "sojourning House"
• IN the Millennium we have a House made with hands for Emanuel to live and rule from - physical Jerusalem
• In the Millennium we have a House that has the "keys to the Kingdom" - the Church - for ruling the Nations

On the New Earth, we have the same, but perfected and consummate. Since Abraham's seed is promised Canaan as an "everlasting possession" things on earth will nt be much different from the Millennium except all things will be "NEW". The Greek word means "made pristine".
 

I have no idea how this addresses the what and when from the OP. "Which Temple is it?" and "When is the Temple?" is what is being explored.