The Temple of Flesh or the Temple of Stone?

[WilliamL]

On 11/18/2021 at 5:00 PM, Josheb said:

I completely accept, uphold, embrace and firmly affirm Hebrews 9:28 but it is not a verse asserting THE second coming, only A second coming. Subtle but important difference. 

What Paul is referring to in the context of Hebrews 9 is the two returns from the Most Holy Place by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur. He already returned "once" (9:12):

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, having obtained [for himself: middle/reflexive voice] eternal redemption.

The first time the High Priest enters is "for himself and for his house" (Lev. 16:11); the second time is "for the people." 16:15  Only after he "returns" from the heavenly holy sanctuary "a second time" (Hebrews 9:28) will "the people [of Christ]" receive their full cleansing "for salvation" of the physical body. That will take place at the Parousia, when the dead will be raised. 1 Cor. 15:23, 42-54

Explained in more detail here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1505-the-tabernacle-and-court-part-4-the-most-holy-place/

 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:27 PM, Josheb said:

Regardless of what the two returns are, there is nothing in scripture limiting Jesus to only two returns. 

 

Hi, Josheb.

Interesting. That's exactly what the pretribulational rapturists believe. Thus, they break the Second Coming into two parts, separated by the "7-year tribulation."

[Uriah]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

I can point directly to Acts 9 and find a statement showing Jesus came to earth to knock Saul of his donkey, strike him blind and convert him to himself.

Acts 26:12-19: 

Whereupon as Iwent to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the prick And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 

Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

The scripture clearly STATES, by Paul himself, that it was a VISION.

 

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

lol. It is understandable how that conclusion might be reached but it is not an interpretation consistent with the whole of the record. The vision to which Paul was referring is the vision of the Lord, the heavenly vision of the Lord, the vision to make Paul a minister and witness of the things he'd seen and would see. That is what is clearly stated. It was not a vision that knocked him of his ride. It was not a vision that struck him blind. It was not a vision that caused the others in attendance to hear a voice but see nothing (Acts 9:7). 

Except that it does not. 

 

Jesus came to Saul on the Damascus rode. He came in judgment against Israel in 70 AD just as he had multiple times before in the Old Testament. He will come again on the last day, at which time all will be gathered, all will bend their knee, all will be judged (but not condemned), and all the kingdoms will be handed over to the Father to His glory. There is no scripture clearly stating another temple will be built and all the temple-related prophesies were spoken either when a temple was still standing or another temple was built and all such prophesies should be understood in light of what scripture actually states and not what it does not anywhere ever state. Jesus is the temple God built. That was the temple prophesied by God. God does not live in houses built by human hands. The scriptures clearly state these things. 

Re-read the citation I provided. In it, Paul recites the very same incident -traveling the road to Damascus.  "..I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness..."

I do not claim that a temple will be built before Jesus returns , period. And no, Jesus did NOT go anywhere away from the right hand of the Father in 70 a.d. or any other time. Acts 3:21- For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets. (NLT)

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Re-read the citation I provided. In it, Paul recites the very same incident -traveling the road to Damascus.  "..I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness..."

I do not claim that a temple will be built before Jesus returns , period. And no, Jesus did NOT go anywhere away from the right hand of the Father in 70 a.d. or any other time. Acts 3:21- For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets. (NLT)

Shalom, Uriah.

Just a quick note: Whereas Yeshua` will build (or re-build) a Temple after He returns, a Temple will be constructed before He comes. We have a couple of clues to that effect:

1. Yeshua` told the Pharisees, et al., that ...

Matthew 23:39 (KJV)

39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

And, this is a quote from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-27 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
27 God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.

The underlined part would be hard to do without a "house of the LORD," a "Temple."

Furthermore, the Hebrew words of the sentence are "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," and this means "Welcome, the Comer in-name (on-authority) of-YHWH."

The plural of the first two words are on the welcome signs at the seaports and airports of Israel:

Therefore, Yeshua`, in quoting that verse, also implies the rest of what follows, indicating that they wouldn't see Him again until they could so welcome Him from the Temple.

2. Of course, some believe that the lawless one of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, that is, the one who is against the Law of God, will present himself as a "god" in the Temple before the Messiah comes. This implies that a Temple must be present before the Messiah comes.

And, I believe there is yet a third proof (which I can't remember right now. It's tough getting old).

I do think you're right about your understanding of Acts 3:21. The Greek simply says that "it's necessary indeed for the sky must receive Him until the times of restoration of all things," referring back to Acts 1.

[Uriah]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

Re-read my post. Jesus appeared to him. Don't conflate the appearance with the vision. Doing so mean others heard the vision; they heard something that wasn't real. 

I am NOT the one conflating things. How is posting a verse from the bible a conflation? 

Paul testified before a king that it was a vision.-Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Acts 3:21- Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things...

So I stand by what it says here.

BELIEVE the scriptures.

[JohnR7]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

That and the fact the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement has been working on this since 1967 and has everything required to build another Temple, is quite telling.

We are told that they are ready to build the temple. But also they can put up a tabernacle in a day - 24 hours the animal sacrifices could be restored to the temple mount. Then we are told it will take 3 1/2 years to build the temple. 2Thess2:4 "

"who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God."

Then at the end of the 7 years Jesus will return to set up His Kingdom on the Earth for 1,000 years. This is a sabbath when man will rest from his works. 

The world we live in is 13,000 years old. There was a 95% extinction that took place 13,000 years ago when the glaciers melted. The universe is 13 billion years old. The word in the Bible is Cosmos. 

 

[Diaste]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:52 AM, Josheb said:

That was the temple prophesied by God. God does not live in houses built by human hands. The scriptures clearly state these things.

That doesn't stop temples being built ostensibly to God. Every sect of Christianity has multiple temples, hundreds, thousands...many claim 'where two or three are gathered together, there I am also,' means Jesus in right there with them, inside the walls of the edifice. 

Somehow the truth of the true Temple should  stop people from acting out personal fantasies of glory? 

Not one thing in all of scripture precludes the building of 10's of thousands of churches. Not even the truth of the nature and meaning of the church, declared and expounded upon in many chapters throughout the Epistles, stops this. 

Because the scripture doesn't specifically say a Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem[inference by deduction proves otherwise] does not institute a ban necessarily. At best it's a gap filling argumentum ad ingnorantiam. 

Since this is normally fallacious we are going to need evidence of such a ban spelled out in so many words, specific to the Temple and Jerusalem and the end of the age.

[Diaste]

On 12/12/2021 at 7:02 PM, JohnR7 said:

We are told that they are ready to build the temple. But also they can put up a tabernacle in a day - 24 hours the animal sacrifices could be restored to the temple mount. Then we are told it will take 3 1/2 years to build the temple. 2Thess2:4 "

"who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God."

Then at the end of the 7 years Jesus will return to set up His Kingdom on the Earth for 1,000 years. This is a sabbath when man will rest from his works. 

The world we live in is 13,000 years old. There was a 95% extinction that took place 13,000 years ago when the glaciers melted. The universe is 13 billion years old. The word in the Bible is Cosmos. 

 

I don't know where it's said the rebuilding of the Temple will take 3.5 years. I think you may be incorrect in believing the earth is older than 13,000 years. From what I have heard maternal mitochondrial DNA and the expected mutations can only be traced back 8000 years at the outside. Written history extends back 5000 years, and that's generous.

Archeological finds lately have pushed the existence of people back as far as 11-13,000 years. It's possible that's true. It's certainly a mystery that Cain was afraid to be killed by people who found him. And where did he get a wife? Clearly there were other people about when Cain killed Abel so history goes back further than what the scriptures tell us is important. But 13 billion years? To vast to comprehend and wholly speculative nonsense.

[Diaste]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:30 AM, Josheb said:

It does prevent any of those temples from being a fulfillment of prophecy. 

Not unless there is a specific statement to the effect a Temple will never again stand in Jerusalem after 70 AD as a fulfillment of prophecy. 

If such a prohibition does not exist then the idea one could stand again is eminently plausible.