Israel is “saved” nationally - not as the Christian is

[Hopefully]

“So I ask: When the Jews fell, did that fall destroy them? No! But their mistake brought salvation to those who are not Jews. The purpose of this was to make the Jews jealous. Their mistake brought rich blessings to the world. And what they lost brought rich blessings to the non-Jewish people. So surely the world will get much richer blessings when enough Jews become the kind of people God wants.
 

Now I am speaking to you people who are not Jews. I am an apostle to the non-Jewish people. So while I have that work, I will do the best I can. I hope I can make my own people jealous. That way, maybe I can help some of them to be saved. God turned away from the Jews. When that happened, he became friends with the other people in the world. So when he accepts the Jews, it will be like bringing people to life after death.

That is true. But those branches were broken off because they did not believe. And you continue to be part of the tree only because you believe. Don’t be proud, but be afraid. If God did not let the natural branches of that tree stay, he will not let you stay if you stop believing.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:11-15, 20-21‬ 

 

[Marilyn C]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:01 PM, AdHoc said:

There are three salient points that must be noted with God’s salvation.

1. Salvation is by FAITH and Hebrews 11:1 defines FAITH as “… the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.” At the moment anything is SEEN, faith is over.
2. There is no requirement for Israel to believe in Jesus to inherit their Land in prosperity and safety. They are under Covenant for that (Gen.17) and their part is circumcision.
3. According to Ephesians 2:15, 2nd Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11, the moment a Jew believes in Jesus Christ, his ethnicity ceases. He is no longer a Jew, but a New Man and all that precedes his rebirth is wiped away. The matter of Israel’s restoration is moot to him.

 

Hi AdHoc,

Even though I have come late to your discussion I would like to add some thoughts too. And since we have had discussions together previously I know we will seek to understand each other`s comments graciously.

We would both agree, I think, it is because of Christ`s sacrifice that any are `saved,` but not all have had this great revelation. Thus because God unfolded His purpose through Christ over time then He will only judge according to the obedience to the revelation revealed.

I see what you are trying to say however there is another component you are mixing up there - the different inheritances. 

1. Faith is the substance of things `HOPED FOR.` (their inheritance) What did those Heb. 11 people HOPE FOR? Yes the city. (Heb. 11: 16) They are accounted righteous, (saved because of Jesus) because of how they obeyed what God asked for - Abel, a sacrifice, Noah, prepared an ark, Abraham, waited for the city... etc. It is all about being accounted righteous to obtain a certain inheritance.

2.Inheriting the land. This is also because of Jesus fulfilling all the requirements of salvation, of the ruling tribe of Israel, and having lived in the land and fulfilling the law. The third of Israel whom God brings through the fire of the trib, (Zech. 13: 8) will have their eyes opened to receive Christ, by His Holy Spirit. (Zech. 12: 10) The Covenant of God with Abraham as we know is fulfilled in Christ. (Mal. 3: 1)

3. Only in the time of the building of the Body of Christ will a Jew become part of it when they turn to Jesus. Many turned to Jesus when He was on earth, but they are not in the Body of Christ, and all of Israel who are left, will turn to Jesus when He comes to deliver them from their enemies at the end of the trib.  

[Your closest friendnt]

@Josheb

"He is not coming to earth until then".

Scripture please or the source of that statement. 

[Your closest friendnt]

Is there something he cannot do from Heaven that he needs to come down to earth as a permanent resident to settle the matter. 

Jesus Christ died out side the Temple as a coursed man , despise and afflicted by God according to the Jews of that time and their descendants there after.

They believe he is coursed and cut down and if they believe in him they will be Judging all their past generations because they have died in unbelief. 

What about them, when the scriptures say that they have been found without faith in the Lord of Life but instant they have been found in the denial of the Lord of Life at the time the Last trumpet sound at the time of their last breath, announcing their appearance before the Lord and Judge of all.

Every knee shall bow down to him. 

It Is appointed unto everyone to die first and after that their Judgment ". 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Read the posts. This scripture has been quoted or cited many times. 

 

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'" 

 

Quoted several times in the NT. Worth looking up in the NT. Also will help to examine the use of throne/footstool in scripture.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Read the posts. This scripture has been quoted or cited many times. 

 

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'" 

 

Quoted several times in the NT. Worth looking up in the NT. Also will help to examine the use of throne/footstool in scripture.

 

An inquiry was made for a scripture or a non scripture source of one of your statements as follows,

"HE IS NOT COMING TO EARTH UNTIL THEN"

[in small caps, with the word until (in bold italics and underline)] 

And on reading this I asked for a scripture of that statement or the source of that statement.

Knowing that this statement is not part of Psalm 110:1 which is posted and is not found there.

Certainly this statement at hand is not part of Psalm 110:v1. 

I wanted to know if the statement in question is what is called "an essegesis" (which is the opposite of exegesis) in the study of scripture. 

The scripture in Psalm 110:v1 is not reading in this way " my Lord who was not at a time sitting on the Throne together with his Lord but now is sitting on the right of his Lord on the invitation of his Lord, and then " he will not be sitting on that Throne forever, but only till a Certain conditions are come to pass, then he will vacate the Throne to returned to where he was before he was invited to come and take his place in the right hand of his Lord.

To show to the world that he is in the right hand of his Lord denotes that his Lord has made him the decision maker , the Ruler, the one who is given authority about everything from his Lord.

This is not about David but about the Lord of David.

The point in response to the question if the statement " he is not coming to earth until then" is not reference in your response in quoting Psalm 110.v1.

This it can be and it is so that it was not a quote from v.1 of Psalm 110.

This statement in question cannot be deduced from v.1 of Psalm 110.

Psalm 110. v.1 it only says that the Lord of David will remained on the Throne to the right of his Lord until something comes to conclusion. 

Not even that, it rather says that he will ruled from the right if his FATHER until something will be achieved and it does not say that then he will then leave the Throne or that his been this position was a temporal one, because it is also said that your Throne will be endured forever and ever.

It also it shows that the Lord of David is co-existing with his Lord and he did not turned against him to inherit the Throne but rather he is invited or has been honored to rule from the Throne while in harmony with his Father. 

This can be taken that the statement in question was an essegetic statement because not only is not part of v.1 of psalm 110. And nothing else has been given to support the notion that the Lord of David will live his Lord or his place in the right of his Lord after being exalted in that position which was meant for him but he had to earn that honor.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Sure it can. 

If he is sitting at God's right hand until X happens then he will not be coming or going anywhere else until the criteria "X" occurs. In the case of Psalm 110:1 the "X" is the defeat of his enemies. There is nothing eisegetic about the statement he won't be coming to earth until then because it is firmly, inextricably based on what is stated in the Psalm: he will sit at his LORD's right hand (on his Father's throne according to Revelation 4, 5, 7, and 21) until his enemies are defeated. Christion Zionist eschatology limits the defeat of Christ's enemies to those here on earth - or it means Jesus is ruling in the heavens from a single chair in a single city (sometimes from a single temple) all here on earth from within earthly time and space. 

Understanding Jesus rules both heaven and earth from his throne that is heaven (heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool), is much more consistent with the whole of scripture than Jesus ruling both heaven and earth from his footstool that is earth. Future-modernists have the throne physically coming to earth. 

 

You are correct, Your closest friendnt, the term "right hand" is connotatively and figure of speech indicating power, but the reason for that connotative language is because in ancient time the delegate of the monarch literally stood or sat at the monarch's literal right hand. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. Psalm 110 tells us Jesus has the power and authority of the Monarch that is God; Christ sits as God's authority and he does so whether he is literally seated or standing, in heaven or elsewhere. All authority was given to him on earth (Mattew 28:18); he did not have to leave earth to be that guy. Psalm 110 is also indicating Lord is subordinate to the LORD. This is reiterated throughout the New Testament but most vividly in Philippians 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 where we read, 

 

Philippians 2:5-11
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.  Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." 

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.  For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming, then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all." 

 

Everything but God Himself is subjected under Christ, and that includes Jesus. Jesus gives all the kingdoms to his Father and everything that happens is to the glory of the Father, NOT THE SON! He sits on his Father's throne at/as his Father's right hand/arm and he sits there until his Father defeats his enemies, which are spread throughout both the heavens and the earth, and the last defeated enemy is death.

These are the things the scriptures actually state. 

 

I need to respond to but not when I am working. And I need to read it carefully and without assumptions. If that possible.  

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

Everything but God Himself is subjected under Christ, and that includes Jesus. Jesus gives all the kingdoms to his Father and everything that happens is to the glory of the Father, NOT THE SON! He sits on his Father's throne at/as his Father's right hand/arm and he sits there until his Father defeats his enemies, which are spread throughout both the heavens and the earth, and the last defeated enemy is death.

These are the things the scriptures actually state. 

 

Hi Josheb,

Just a quick note.

I so agree that Jesus` source and seat of power and authority is from heaven & not the earth. Which Jesus actually told Pilate.

However I think you may need to consider that the Father is only bringing Christ`s enemies to His footstool. For the Father has given all judgment into the hands of the Son. (John 5: 27)

It is the Son (being the Father`s right hand man) who puts down all rule, and authority. (1 Cor. 15: 24)

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

Even though I have come late to your discussion I would like to add some thoughts too. And since we have had discussions together previously I know we will seek to understand each other`s comments graciously.

We would both agree, I think, it is because of Christ`s sacrifice that any are `saved,` but not all have had this great revelation. Thus because God unfolded His purpose through Christ over time then He will only judge according to the obedience to the revelation revealed.

I see what you are trying to say however there is another component you are mixing up there - the different inheritances. 

1. Faith is the substance of things `HOPED FOR.` (their inheritance) What did those Heb. 11 people HOPE FOR? Yes the city. (Heb. 11: 16) They are accounted righteous, (saved because of Jesus) because of how they obeyed what God asked for - Abel, a sacrifice, Noah, prepared an ark, Abraham, waited for the city... etc. It is all about being accounted righteous to obtain a certain inheritance.

2.Inheriting the land. This is also because of Jesus fulfilling all the requirements of salvation, of the ruling tribe of Israel, and having lived in the land and fulfilling the law. The third of Israel whom God brings through the fire of the trib, (Zech. 13: 8) will have their eyes opened to receive Christ, by His Holy Spirit. (Zech. 12: 10) The Covenant of God with Abraham as we know is fulfilled in Christ. (Mal. 3: 1)

3. Only in the time of the building of the Body of Christ will a Jew become part of it when they turn to Jesus. Many turned to Jesus when He was on earth, but they are not in the Body of Christ, and all of Israel who are left, will turn to Jesus when He comes to deliver them from their enemies at the end of the trib.  

 

My CAPITALS are for emphasis, and I answer gladly.

In your point #1, you have not mentioned one Israelite. Yet you call them Hebrews. You are not wrong for Hebrew means "River-crosser" and that they were. But that s not the reason that they are righteous.  The first mention of an Israelite, and that by implication, is verse 21. "These ALL" in verse 13 refers to those which the text has already mentioned, and they are Gentiles. Also in point #1 you equate imputed righteousness equal to salvation. On what basis? Added to this, the very text of Hebrews 11 shows what the Promises were that were not fulfilled in their lifetimes - they were "Sojourners in the LAND". 

In your point #2, you made an opening statement but gave no scripture. Israel do not inherit the Land based on Jesus fulfilling the requirements of salvation. Israel inherit the Land because (1) God promised that, and (ii) based on circumcision. Israel were ejected from the Land for breaking the Law, and will be returned to the Land by returning to the Law (Deut.30:1-5). Where our Lord's work comes into play is in the matter of a just God dealing with their sin (in order to resurrect them) and their trespasses (which got them ejected).

You've comes to the discussion late and I don't expect you to do it, but if you had to read every objecting posting, you will be surprised to find that NOBODY posted a scripture saying that Israel have FAITH in Christ while he is UNSEEN. I posted the verses that say that unbelief and blindness stay until the end - whatever your understanding of the "fulness of the Gentiles" is. Acts 15:14-17 settles that anyway. Only when the Church is complete, does Christ come to restore the ruined House of David. The House of David reigned over a UNITED ISRAEL! Added to this, in nearly every letter of the New Testament, plus Acts, is the Church warned of the "circumcision". Israel remains a mortal enemy of Christ and His Church till the end of the age. that is why there is no scripture showing Israel turning to the Lord.

Your statement that Israel "Inherits the Land" because of Jesus fulfilling all the requirements of salvation defies scripture. Is there not man's part written in Romans 10:9-11?

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It is up to you to show us the scriptures when Israel BELIEVES and CONFESSES. their (i) righteousness depends on it (v.10), and (ii) salvation depends on it (vs.9-10). 

In your point #3 I think that at least two scriptures are needed to show this. Their absence is startling. This is the crux of the thread. If you can establish, with two scriptures, that plainly say that UNBELIEVING Israel suddenly believe, and at which point in time, you will still be faced with a dilemma. When a man believes and confesses Jesus he becomes a New Creature, his past it wiped out including his ethnicity, "for there is NO JEW in the New Man" (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). All the Jews you allude to, who have believd and confessed are no longer Israelites - but a New Man "CREATED" from the "TWAIN" (the Nations and the Nation of Israel)(Eph.2:15, 4:24, Col.3:10).

And, my esteemed sister, it will not help to say that context of "ALL Israel will be saved" is the Olive Tree. A Tree in Parable is not the Church. It is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan,4, Ezek.31 etc.). The Olive Tree shows Christ (the holy Root) as King over Israel in the Millennium (for at present they are cut out), and the Church now (as they have the keys to the kingdom). Making the Olive Tree the Church is a "private interpretation".

Go well.  

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Can I get some clarification on that? 

 

I listed just short of twenty concerns with this op and we've briefly touched upon only a few. My review of the op was said to be fair. We've cleared up the matter of Hebrews 11 and how faith applies to this op. I've covered the matter of Israel's salvation definitely being tied to the deliverer (Jesus) and salvation from sin, and received an agreeing acknowledgment the forgiveness of sins for Israel and the Church are based on the same exact criteria. Amen! I don't believe I've received an explanation how that is possible without believing in Jesus. I think I pointed out the conditions of Romans 11 are explicitly said to be first century conditions, not 21st century conditions. Don't recall reading anything addressing that, either. I showed scripture regarding how Israel is defined in the NT, and it is not defined as everyone born from the line of Jacob in the epistolary. Don't recall that being addressed, even though I did read an "Israelite is born to Isaac," and is therefore under the covenant of promise. That conflicts with the definition provided earlier. It also conflicts with the statement an acknowledgment of Jesus is not required since the resurrected Jesus is the promise. I read a dispute claiming the gospel preached to Abraham did not include the land but according to Paul, "the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith" (Rom. 4:12). Abe is the father of many nations, not one; the heir of the world, not a postage stamp-sized parcel of land on the east side of the Mediterranean. 

 

I'd also like to add to my earlier list. 

The op cites Luke 1:73 as evidence something other than faith is the basis for Israel attaining God's mercy but the Luke 1 text states, 

Luke 1:70-77
"As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old — Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us; to show mercy toward our fathers, and to remember His holy covenant, The oath which He swore to Abraham our father, to grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him all our days. And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare his ways; to give to His people the knowledge of salvation by the forgiveness of their sins..."

The verse cited says nothing about their return to their land. In fact, the word "land does not appear anywhere in the entire chapter! It's also a curious appeal because the passage clearly states the oath of God involved the knowledge of salvation by the forgiveness of sins. Yet the op claims the salvation of Israel is different than that of the church and there is no requirement for Israel to believe in Jesus to acquire the land because what they need is a return to the covenant with Abraham..... even though that covenant clearly involves an acknowledgment of the deliverer through whom the knowledge of salvation by the forgiveness of sins occurs. 

I am very encouraged by the statement near the end the Law of Moses is not needed because many believers believe just the opposite. They say Israel will return as a nation, re-institute the Law, the priesthood, the sacrifices, rebuild the temple, and have Jesus sit on an earthly throne (although it is sometimes hard to get them pinned down on who exactly built that chair upon which Jesus sits). Glad to see a repudiation of the Law of Moses. However, the belief a new set of laws will be provided is just as big a problem as was the two previous sets of laws God has already provided (Moses and the Spirit).  The appeal to Jeremiah 31 would make sense if the New Testament writers hadn't already told us the new covenant has already been given to Israel (and the Gentiles), but that is in fact what Jesus, Paul, and the author of Hebrews testify. The new covenant was ratified in the blood of Christ. Jeremiah 31:31-33 is quoted at least a half-dozen times in the NT and referenced indirectly several more times. According to these NT writers Jeremiah 31 is not a future event but a condition that already happened in the first century. 

So those two matters should bring the concerns warranting address to an even twenty. 

 

Yet I read, "Take care". 

 

Are we done or just taking a break? 

 

 

If we go back through our postings, the reader will note that your objections were met. Eloquent and volume of writing do not win an argument. Take your posting above. 

You claim Romans 4:13 to be fulfilled by the many nations that Abraham's brought forth. In this you defy that only ONE is heir - "in Isaac shall your seed be called". But you make Ishmael, Esau and the sons of Kerzurah to be heirs. God pointed said that Ishmael would NOT inherit.

Then you belittle the "postage size land" and declare it not the inheritance. But Abraham is taken by God to view it and is advised by the Living God that it is a choice Land. It's borders are laid down three times in scripture, and every Jew aspires to this Land of "milk and honey". Shall I draw out argument over this? No. God is well able to deal with those who, like Esau, despise the birthright.

Then you deny that the Land is mentioned in Luke 1:72-73. So, as a courtesy to you, I will copy and paste the Promise to Abraham - from God's mouth. Note that Abraham had to do nothing. It was a Promise. Genesis 13:14-18)

14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. 18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the Lord.

Now, either God's Word is good or we can discard the whole Bible. Zacharias spoke of the LAND. Moreover, he said "HOLY Covenant". It would not do well to make light of this Covenant. And in Genesis 17:7-8, we learn that it is an "everlasting" Covenant over a Land that will be an "everlasting possession".

⁷ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. ⁸ And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

You see, there is a point when everything has been said, and no good will come out of further disputing. Take my offer. It allows you the last word. And if your arguments have sat with the other readers, you will have an advantage when we meet again over another subject. 

God bless.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

My CAPITALS are for emphasis, and I answer gladly.

In your point #1, you have not mentioned one Israelite. Yet you call them Hebrews. You are not wrong for Hebrew means "River-crosser" and that they were. But that s not the reason that they are righteous.  The first mention of an Israelite, and that by implication, is verse 21. "These ALL" in verse 13 refers to those which the text has already mentioned, and they are Gentiles. Also in point #1 you equate imputed righteousness equal to salvation. On what basis? Added to this, the very text of Hebrews 11 shows what the Promises were that were not fulfilled in their lifetimes - they were "Sojourners in the LAND". 

In your point #2, you made an opening statement but gave no scripture. Israel do not inherit the Land based on Jesus fulfilling the requirements of salvation. Israel inherit the Land because (1) God promised that, and (ii) based on circumcision. Israel were ejected from the Land for breaking the Law, and will be returned to the Land by returning to the Law (Deut.30:1-5). Where our Lord's work comes into play is in the matter of a just God dealing with their sin (in order to resurrect them) and their trespasses (which got them ejected).

You've comes to the discussion late and I don't expect you to do it, but if you had to read every objecting posting, you will be surprised to find that NOBODY posted a scripture saying that Israel have FAITH in Christ while he is UNSEEN. I posted the verses that say that unbelief and blindness stay until the end - whatever your understanding of the "fulness of the Gentiles" is. Acts 15:14-17 settles that anyway. Only when the Church is complete, does Christ come to restore the ruined House of David. The House of David reigned over a UNITED ISRAEL! Added to this, in nearly every letter of the New Testament, plus Acts, is the Church warned of the "circumcision". Israel remains a mortal enemy of Christ and His Church till the end of the age. that is why there is no scripture showing Israel turning to the Lord.

Your statement that Israel "Inherits the Land" because of Jesus fulfilling all the requirements of salvation defies scripture. Is there not man's part written in Romans 10:9-11?

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It is up to you to show us the scriptures when Israel BELIEVES and CONFESSES. their (i) righteousness depends on it (v.10), and (ii) salvation depends on it (vs.9-10). 

In your point #3 I think that at least two scriptures are needed to show this. Their absence is startling. This is the crux of the thread. If you can establish, with two scriptures, that plainly say that UNBELIEVING Israel suddenly believe, and at which point in time, you will still be faced with a dilemma. When a man believes and confesses Jesus he becomes a New Creature, his past it wiped out including his ethnicity, "for there is NO JEW in the New Man" (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). All the Jews you allude to, who have believd and confessed are no longer Israelites - but a New Man "CREATED" from the "TWAIN" (the Nations and the Nation of Israel)(Eph.2:15, 4:24, Col.3:10).

And, my esteemed sister, it will not help to say that context of "ALL Israel will be saved" is the Olive Tree. A Tree in Parable is not the Church. It is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan,4, Ezek.31 etc.). The Olive Tree shows Christ (the holy Root) as King over Israel in the Millennium (for at present they are cut out), and the Church now (as they have the keys to the kingdom). Making the Olive Tree the Church is a "private interpretation".

Go well.  

Hi AdHoc,

1.     The book of Hebrews is written, as we both agree, to the Hebrew Christians. It was about the Lord being greater than.....And it reveals God`s purpose (because of Christ) for the OT saints, some Israeli and some Gentiles. They had their righteousness, (because of Jesus) according to the revelation they were given from God. They had to believe God and what He promised them. They obeyed in various ways and were accounted righteous. (Abel, sacrifice, Enoch, walked with God, Noah, built Ark, Abraham, waited for the city...)

 

2.     Deut. 30: 6

`And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.`

It is the Lord God who will accomplish this, Israel could never. God will do it when He sees that `their power is gone.` (Deut. 32: 36) `He will provide atonement for His land and His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)

So we see that it is more than just forgiveness of national rebellion but of the land also. Deut. 30: 20 is a summary of `obedience, life, and dwelling in the land.` Christ fulfilled all that - obedience, life for the Father and all that in the land.

BTW I agree that the Olive tree and root is Christ. I never said it was the Church.

 

3.     When I look at scripture I focus first on what God`s purpose is for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations, all through Christ. Thus -

Looking at some people in Israel when Jesus was manifest on earth. He came to His own and some recognised who He was - King of Israel, Son of David and Son of God.

`Where is He born King of the Jews?` (Matt. 2: 2,  the wise men)

`You are the King of Israel.` (John 1: 49,  Nathanael)

`Hosanna to the Son of David! (Matt. 21: 9, the crowd)

`You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.` (Matt. 16: 16,  Peter)

 

Then believers in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile, but called out of Israel and the nations. Then understanding that the Father, made the Lord Jesus, Head of the Body. It is a new group of people in God`s purposes in Christ. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Then Gentiles in the trib, who turn to God are looking for the Jewish Messiah, who will be their king also. (Rev. 15: 1 - 4)

`Great and marvellous are your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the Nations!.` (Rev. 15: 3)

Hope that explains what I think more clearly.

Marilyn.