Israel is “saved” nationally - not as the Christian is

[AdHoc]

There are three salient points that must be noted with God’s salvation.

1. Salvation is by FAITH and Hebrews 11:1 defines FAITH as “… the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.” At the moment anything is SEEN, faith is over.
2. There is no requirement for Israel to believe in Jesus to inherit their Land in prosperity and safety. They are under Covenant for that (Gen.17) and their part is circumcision.
3. According to Ephesians 2:15, 2nd Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11, the moment a Jew believes in Jesus Christ, his ethnicity ceases. He is no longer a Jew, but a New Man and all that precedes his rebirth is wiped away. The matter of Israel’s restoration is moot to him.

Now, it is evident from Romans 11:25-35 that until the “fulness of the Gentiles”, Israel UNBELIEF abides. What ever meaning one gives for the “fulness of the Gentiles”, whether it be the end of Gentile rule at Armageddon, or the last Gentile to be incorporated in the Church, the fact is, Israel does not exercise FAITH in Jesus. Like Thomas, they only believe when they see our Lord Jesus burst out of the clouds with His pierced hands and feet. Thus, there is NO “salvation” in the sense of being born again and having eternal life like the Christian.

Israel’s “salvation” must be different then. The Bible gives multiple meanings for “salvation”. The context must decide. Are we saved from the Lake of Fire by being a woman who bears children? (1st Timothy 2:15). No, the rigors, self denial and self discipline a mother exercises in child birth and raising “saves” her from a wanton character which only seeks her own things - but does not give eternal life. Likewise, in 1st Peter 3:20, Noah is saved BY water. And scripture tells us how. Not saved from the Lake of Fire but from a conscience defiled by what happened before the flood. The word “saved” means “removed from a damaging situation”.

In Israel’s case, they openly refused their Messiah, then and now. So in what sense is “ALL Israel saved”? All Israel is every one born from the line of Jacob EXCEPT those who have experienced a NEW and HIGHER birth by the Holy Spirit. These, called the New Man, have no past, no ethnicity and they belong to the New Man - “which is created in righteousness, true holiness and after the image of God” (Eph.4:24, Col.3:10). Israel being Law-breakers and blasphemers (as ALL Israel is now found), have no part in this New Man. The sense of Israel’s salvation is “SAVED as a Nation dwelling safely and prosperously in their Land".

This is what the prophets, starting from Moses, predicted. A beautiful summary of the prophets is spoken by Zacharias in Luke 1:67-79. Israel’s salvation is to be forgiven by God, resurrected, restored to their Land, be free of threats from enemies, prosper and serve God Who would dwell with them - Emanuel - God with us. To achieve this NATIONAL restoration, three things are needed:

1. Somebody worthy to take care of their sins. God can never wink at even the smallest of trespasses. His whole being and first attribute is righteousness. But Jesus, Messiah, and anointed of God, pays for ALL sin (singular - Jn.1:29), and ALL trespasses (plural - 1st Jn.2:2). God may, as He say in Romans 11, “have mercy on who he wills”. The price is paid in full by our Lord Jesus.
2. Something else than FAITH. If Israel remain in unbelief until our Lord Jesus is seen, on what basis may mercy be applied? The answer is; the basis is The Covenant with Abraham. Zacharias makes this clear in his prophecy in Luke 1:73.
3. The effects of the Covenant made with Moses must be removed. The Covenant of Law written on stones did not help. It was outside of fallen man, and though good, spiritual and given by God, it only condemned. So God gives Israel (in that day when Israel is united again) a New Covenant OF HIS LAWS. This is promised in Jeremiah 31:31-33 explicitly. But this time, the Laws are written INSIDE the Israelite. And God gives a new heart that is not always at enmity with God. The Israelite of the restoration will INTRINSICALLY keep the Law and never again be ejected from his Land

Each of these three points needs to be expanded. No doubt the energetic discussion that follows will shed much light.

God bless.   

[Justin Adams]

Yeshua signed a NEW COVENANT in His Blood.

And just to prove it, the Lord High God destroyed Jerusalem along with the old covenant in 70AD.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Bawb]

Adhoc posted: "Israel’s “salvation” must be different then.:

I disagree. There is only ONE salvation. John 14:6 -Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. What you propose is against this. When Yeshua was speaking in the "New Testament", the majority of the time He was speaking to Jews and not Gentiles. 

Adhoc also posted: Israel being Law-breakers and blasphemers (as ALL Israel is now found), have no part in this New Man.

This is not necessarily true. There are VAST numbers of Jewish people of Israel who are accepting Yeshua as their Messiah:  https://www.oneforisrael.org/about-us/jewish-evangelism-in-israel/ This is but one ministry.

[AdHoc]

18 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Yeshua signed a NEW COVENANT in His Blood.

And just to prove it, the Lord High God destroyed Jerusalem along with the old covenant in 70AD.

Every Covenant that God makes with sinful man must be ratified in blood (Heb.9:18-22). The New Covenant, made with Israel, must too be ratified in blood. But the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin and sins. And Israel need their sins removed. So this New Covenant of Law was RATIFIED in His blood. It is not in effect yet. Even without scripture one can see that Israel's sins are  not yet put away. The curses of the Covenant of Law at Sinai are still in full effect. But scripture too sets the time when the New Covenant of Law comes into effect - when Israel (the ten northern Tribes) and Judah (the two southern Tribes), are united again - as Ezekiel 37 predicts.

The destruction of Jerusalem is proof that fist Covenant of Law is in effect. See the latter part of Deuteronomy 28 where sieges on their cities will be sent by God Himself.

[Bawb]

Adhoc posted: But scripture too sets the time when the New Covenant of Law comes into effect - when Israel (the ten northern Tribes) and Judah (the two southern Tribes), are united again - as Ezekiel 37 predicts.

Jeremiah 31:32-34 * 32It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. 34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”…

Mark 14:24 * He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
 

 

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, Bawb said:

Adhoc posted: "Israel’s “salvation” must be different then.:

I disagree. There is only ONE salvation. John 14:6 -Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. What you propose is against this. When Yeshua was speaking in the "New Testament", the majority of the time He was speaking to Jews and not Gentiles. 

Adhoc also posted: Israel being Law-breakers and blasphemers (as ALL Israel is now found), have no part in this New Man.

This is not necessarily true. There are VAST numbers of Jewish people of Israel who are accepting Yeshua as their Messiah:  https://www.oneforisrael.org/about-us/jewish-evangelism-in-israel/ This is but one ministry.

Hello and thanks for your objection. I will gladly answer. The verse you chose to show that all salvations are the same, does not even contain the word "saved". Secondly, in John 14 our Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples - believers. You can't have God as your "Father" without rebirth (Jn.1:12-13). 

It is true that the four gospels and the first eight Chapters of Acts address mainly Jews. But what did they do? Rejected Him, called Him an emissary of Beelzebub, and plotted an unlawful killing of Him. Israel's darkest hour is still before them. They will embrace the Beast. I have no records to document the number of Jews who believe in Jesus in any one year, but "VAST" might be a little exaggeration. If that first Pentecost was any indication then the following puts some perspective to it.

During the Feasts of the Law, the population of Jerusalem swelled to over a million (some historians say as much as 2 million). On Pentecost 3,000 were converted. 1 million divided by 3,000 is a third of 1 percent.

 

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, Bawb said:

Adhoc posted: But scripture too sets the time when the New Covenant of Law comes into effect - when Israel (the ten northern Tribes) and Judah (the two southern Tribes), are united again - as Ezekiel 37 predicts.

Jeremiah 31:32-34 * 32It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. 34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”…

Mark 14:24 * He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
 

 

I'm not sure what your point is. But it looks like you would like to show that because our Lord's blood RATIFIES the New Covenant, that it came into effect on the same day. If that is the case, then (i) all Israelites who ever lived must have resurrected, (ii) all 12 tribes must be one Nation, (iii) all Israel would be keeping the Law since Golgotha, and (iv) Jehovah must have punished Israel unjustly for 2,000 years.

I'm sure you'll rethink the matter. Ratification is not not the beginning date. It is the day that God accepts the conditions of the Covenant. It is "AFTER those days", like Acts:15.14-17;

¹⁴ Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. ¹⁵ And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, ¹⁶ After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: ¹⁷ That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: "So in what sense is “ALL Israel saved?"

Why go down a wrong path? There is only one plan of salvation. Jesus Christ paid for the sins of His people. His people are all who were ordained to eternal life from the beginning to the end of this world. "All Israel" is a metaphor to describe the body of Christ,  or His church  (assembly). 

In Rom.11 :25, national Israel will be blind concerning God's plan of salvation for the nations (fullness of the Gentiles).  " So"( or in this manner), "All Israel", or all who are in the body of Christ,  including many Jews, will be saved. 

It doesn't have to be complicated. 

By (i) saying that all salvations are under one plan, you have complicated matters, as I will show, and (ii) saying that the direct words of Paul in Romans 11 are a metaphor, you have sought to change their meaning. There is not a single verse that makes Israel the Body of Christ. Israel sought to eradicate the Body of Christ. Even in New Jerusalem Israel are different and separate from the walls - the House of God.

1. In 1st Timothy 2:15 it reads;

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Pray, tell us about this salvation that is only open to women, depends of having children, and depends on a continuance of good works? Remember, you have said that there is only one plan of salvation.

2. Paul defines Israel in Chapter 9 when he starts the discourse on Israel's recovery. He calls them "my brethren according to the flesh". How can something that is a product of the flesh compare with those born of the Spirit? There is no metaphor. Israel is Israel.

[Justin Adams]

I am afraid this is such an obtuse set of NEW and distorted doctrines that I will bow out now.

Prov 26- 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be like him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes.

[Bawb]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It is true that the four gospels and the first eight Chapters of Acts address mainly Jews. But what did they do? Rejected Him, called Him an emissary of Beelzebub, and plotted an unlawful killing of Him. Israel's darkest hour is still before them. They will embrace the Beast. I have no records to document the number of Jews who believe in Jesus in any one year, but "VAST" might be a little exaggeration. If that first Pentecost was any indication then the following puts some perspective to it.

During the Feasts of the Law, the population of Jerusalem swelled to over a million (some historians say as much as 2 million). On Pentecost 3,000 were converted. 1 million divided by 3,000 is a third of 1 percent.

:I will also refer you to John 10:14-16 * I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15. just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16. I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

"The Jews" did not kill Yeshua. The Pharasees, Sadducees and an unknown number in a crowd of Jews convinced the Romans to execute Him. If one wants to be honest, We all killed Yeshua. He died for our sins.

After Pentecost...

Acts 21:20 - When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the Torah.

Additionally, Jews do not "convert" They already hold the belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (The one, true living God). All they have to do is believe Yeshua is the song of YeHoVah and he is their Jewish Messiah. They were/are not pagans who had to "convert" to anything. To "convert" means to renounce their "Jewishness" Where is it written that any of the Apostles "converted"? If that is what is written in your Bible, it is not a good translation. Hindus and Muslims "convert".