Israel is “saved” nationally - not as the Christian is

[AdHoc]

9 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is double talk. 

Thank you. Your objection is noted.

Nevertheless - God bless.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you. Your objection is noted.

Nevertheless - God bless.

Are you admitting to that? Or you you do not.

You do not believe that Jesus Christ has died for all.

This was my inquiry, I was not very clear. 

 

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Are you admitting to that? Or you you do not.

You do not believe that Jesus Christ has died for all.

This was my inquiry, I was not very clear. 

 

I posted some verses. But I will answer.

The gospel is for "all that have ears" (Matt.13) - all are welcome and God wants everybody to be saved (1st Tim.2:4)

But God knows that few will heed the offer. He has "foreknowledge" (Rom.8:29)

Thus, His call is only to those who He knows will answer. To those who hold the truth in unrighteousness, He hands over to blindness (Rom.1)

Of those who are called  and accept, all are predestined, NOT to salvation, but to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29). Transformation needs three things:

1. God's power to do His will (Phil.2:13)
2. God's life to be infused into the man to be in His likeness (2nd Pet.1:4)
3. Man's cooperation by denying himself and taking up his cross daily 

I hope this is better.

[Your closest friendnt]

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I posted some verses. But I will answer.

The gospel is for "all that have ears" (Matt.13)

Mathew 13: does not say that.

And I invite you to prove it.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

- all are welcome and God wants everybody to be saved (1st Tim.2:4)

English Standard Version
1 Tim. 2:4

4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

*This is what 1st Tim. 2:4 in the ESV says.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

But God knows that few will heed the offer. He has "foreknowledge"

(Rom.8:29)

(No this is not what is the scriptures in Rom.8,29)

Again the scripture reference is Rom. 8:29, first we do not have the bible Version and the scripture is not posted.

***this is what is posted in Rom.8:29 in NKJV 

Romans 8:29 NKJV

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thus, His call is only to those who He knows will answer.

You did not post scripture reference for this statement,

do you have any? Please post I will be waiting.  

*Want to know if we discuss scriptures or not. 

 

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

To those who hold the truth in unrighteousness, He hands over to blindness (Rom.1)

ROMANS 1 it is not only two sentences.

Please do not disappoint us and post the bible version and the specific verses.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Of those who are called  and accept, all are predestined, NOT to salvation, but to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29). Transformation needs three things:

1. God's power to do His will (Phil.2:13)
2. God's life to be infused into the man to be in His likeness (2nd Pet.1:4)
3. Man's cooperation by denying himself and taking up his cross daily 

I hope this is better.

 

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

OK. Because all men will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), all men will be on the New Earth. Men are then divided into one of four Companies.

1. The Church making the City and ruling
2. Israel making the Gates of the City and vetting the Nations
3. Those of the Nations who found not having actively opposing God (Isa.66:24)*
4. Those of the Nations who actively went against God *

Adam believed God and named His wife"mother of the living". Eve believed God and thought that Cain was the "seed" promised. There is some evidence that they had faith in this "seed" - the Messiah. But I would not go to the barricades for it.

 

* A study of men's judgment by God (actually Jesus Himself) will show that men and angels are judged based on works (Jesus is given the highest place and fame because of what He DID). See Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 for the Church. See Daniel 12:2 for Israel. See Matthew 25:31-46 for the living of the Nations, and Revelation 20 for the "rest of the dead". Because our sins are put away, we are judged for works AFTER conversion. This also means that still born infants, young children who are killed and the impaired do not go to the Lake of Fire. The Mongolian shepherd boy, who just lived and died and never heard the gospel will join those of point #3. But murder, blasphemy, striking a Jew or Christian etc., will be punished by the Second Death. Isaiah 66:24 describes how we will "look upon" these. Since we are on earth at the time, so also will the Lake of Fire be on earth.

Hi Ad Hoc,

 1 Cor. 15: 22 says that `in Christ all shall be made alive, but each one in his own order.` However it does NOT say that all men will be ON the new earth.

We need to look at all the scriptures where God has promised inheritances for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations.

The Body of Christ`s inheritance is with the Lord on His throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21,  Eph. 1: 20 - 23,  1 Peter 1: 4,  Col. 1: 5,   Eph. 2: 6,  Phil. 3: 20,  Heb. 3: 1)

The OT saints have been promised the city in the universal area. (Heb. 11: 16,  Rev. 21: 23,  Rev. 21: 12 - 14)

Israel to rule over the nations on the earth. (2 Sam. 7: 16,  Isa. 65: 17 - 19, Ez. 17: 22 - 24)

The Nations of the saved will be on the new earth. (Rev. 7: 9 - 17,  21: 24)

 

Each in their own order - God`s great purpose is that all authority in every realm come under the Lordship of Christ. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

OK. Because all men will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), all men will be on the New Earth.

You did not post the scripture and we do not know the version of the bible you are using to post the scripture for you.

Never the less we are not here to condemn but to discuss the scripture it self and in this case is 1st Corinthians 15:22.

Without prejudice I will post from the NKJV.

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

@AdHoc Do you have another scripture besides 1st Corinthians 15:22 to support as statement such as this "all men will be resurrected" because you cannot convince anyone that this is expressing stated or deduce from 1st Corinthians 15:22. As posted from the KJV above. 

Please give some scripture as it is your duty to give as this is a global site and .many readers see the postings as a guide "at cart blance" english at face value because as they are looking at the Avatar of the poster they perceived that he is a teacher of the scriptures in the likes of Paul whom had the promise that Jesus will deliverer him from difficult and Life threatening situations or the likes of John the disciple Jesus loved whom Jesus gave him the duty to take care of his Mother and to looked after her when he made the statement that "those who do the will of God to believe in him and who livod him are our brothers or sisters or mothers and fathers and children" and said to John at the time of his death "John this is your mother and mother this is your son".

Jesus Christ statement had more than one propose.

And at that time when it was said his disciples and his mother and anyone else who was there to support him they had a strong faith in their heart that the time had come for Jesus to revealed himself to the nation of Judah that he is the promised King and Messiah the Christ of God when he will come down from the Cross and that he will not die.

This is the last thing they were expecting to hear from Jesus at that time.

Because what he told them it was if he was telling them that I know what you are hoping and wishing in your heart that I am not going to die, but sorry that I will die because he said "Mother this is your son (pointing to John) and John this is your mother (pointing to his mother) and from that day John took her to his home and he looked after her.

÷ that statement of Jesus Christ to John before he died on the Cross it included that he will be the one to be with his mother at her old age and be with her till the last moments before she died. 

Also it included that John will escape the earlier violence of the persecution and that he will outlived his mother, and that he will be the one to look after the duties of the son according to their culture when his mother time will come.

Jesus said" Mother this is your son, pointing to John and John this is your mother pointing to his mother " and from that day John took her home and looked after her. 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

 1 Cor. 15: 22 says that `in Christ all shall be made alive, but each one in his own order.` However it does NOT say that all men will be ON the new earth.

We need to look at all the scriptures where God has promised inheritances for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations.

The Body of Christ`s inheritance is with the Lord on His throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21,  Eph. 1: 20 - 23,  1 Peter 1: 4,  Col. 1: 5,   Eph. 2: 6,  Phil. 3: 20,  Heb. 3: 1)

The OT saints have been promised the city in the universal area. (Heb. 11: 16,  Rev. 21: 23,  Rev. 21: 12 - 14)

Israel to rule over the nations on the earth. (2 Sam. 7: 16,  Isa. 65: 17 - 19, Ez. 17: 22 - 24)

The Nations of the saved will be on the new earth. (Rev. 7: 9 - 17,  21: 24)

 

Each in their own order - God`s great purpose is that all authority in every realm come under the Lordship of Christ. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

Hi Marilyn C,

I always admired how articulate you are with the english language.

There is always abiquity in the language so some may think, such as the statement "the body of Christ".

Which you have used in this post, along with the "OT saints", and "israel".

What is this that makes the "the body of Christ " and "the OT saints" and "Israel" stand apart from one another? 

In that formation, in the formation of the three groups standing apart from each other

(nothing to bond them together) 

And Jesus is call to take his place and the question will be asked

( to help with the answer) 

Will he stand with his body or with the OT saints or with Israel? 

Or with some other group which you have not mention and that group may include John the Baptist or do you see John the Baptist in anyone of these groups? 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Since we are on earth at the time, so also will the Lake of Fire be on earth.

Good morning AdHoc. First, I'd like to mention, it's a pleasure having this discussion on scripture and our views. You have brought up a few things I have not considered, and further study is required on my part to even comment. 

I too am an old man, almost seventy years old. Unlike you, I spent many decades not reading and studying God's word as a backslider. In the last five years since I repented (a long story), I've worked at getting to; where I should have been in the knowledge of God and His word, if that makes any sense. 

It's refreshing to share our views, talk about them, and learn; without all the name calling, rudeness, your view is wrong and needs corrected, etc. It's a shame I had to make friends with the ignore button on a Christian forum site.

But anyway; I'm curious, as to why you think the Lake of Fire will be on earth? I'm not debating it, whether it can or cannot be on Earth; but how you developed that opinion? 

My thoughts: Outer darkness; bottomless pit; Scheol (H); Geenna (G); Haides (G); Lake of Fire. 

With the exception of the Lake of Fire; the rest of these places seem to be under foot, and a temporary "jail" so to speak, until the final Great White Throne judgment. Upon Jesus' death on the cross, He descended and ascended to and from there. It appears there is only one side of the two former sides (Paradise - Abraham's bosom, and torment side). The criminal on the cross next to Jesus, would be in Paradise with Him that very same day. I believe Paradise is not Heaven, because at that point Jesus was not physically resurrected or ascended to Heaven yet. Jesus took captivity captive and many of the long dead were seen walking the streets of Jerusalem. 

There seems to be different levels of Hell. The "bottomless pit", seems to indicate the lowest level of Hell. If there is no more bottom, there is only "up." In the center of the Earth, there is only up, and no down or bottom. The further down, higher the pressure, therefore higher the temperature (physics). 

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The eternal prison (Lake of Fire) if you will, seems to have the same levels and pain as associated with Hell? Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Would it be fair and just; to judge a Hitler, Stalin, etc., the same as someone whom rejected Christ, but did plenty of moral and good works in their life? I'm relatively sure "outer darkness" is a euphemism or reference to separation from God, or Hell. But it seems mysterious, all the times Jesus used Geenna and Haides, and the time He used outer darkness? 

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 

This is interesting. Jesus is omnipresent, the holy angels are not. This is hard to comprehend and picture? It does not say; in the presence of the saints also, but if it is on Earth, we are on Earth, will we not see our lost family and loved ones being tormented? 

There was a "great divide" between compartment in Haides, in which no one could cross; would there not also be a great divide with the Lake of Fire? What's your understanding on the preceding?

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Mathew 13: does not say that.

And I invite you to prove it.

English Standard Version
1 Tim. 2:4

4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

*This is what 1st Tim. 2:4 in the ESV says.

(No this is not what is the scriptures in Rom.8,29)

Again the scripture reference is Rom. 8:29, first we do not have the bible Version and the scripture is not posted.

***this is what is posted in Rom.8:29 in NKJV 

Romans 8:29 NKJV

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

You did not post scripture reference for this statement,

do you have any? Please post I will be waiting.  

*Want to know if we discuss scriptures or not. 

 

ROMANS 1 it is not only two sentences.

Please do not disappoint us and post the bible version and the specific verses.

 

Matthew 13:3-9, 18-19
"3 Behold, a sower went forth to sow;.... ⁹ Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ... 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom ...

I quoted 1st Timiothy 2:4 to show that God wants all people to be saved. You again did not comment. What is the problem? Don't you believe that God desires that all men be saved?

I quoted Romans 8:29 to show that God has "FOREKNOWLEDGE". You say He doesn't. How then do you read Romans 8:29?

I quoted Romans 1 to show that any man who holds the truth in unrighteousness will be given over by God. Here is Romans 1:21-24.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

I apologize if you have difficulty finding verses. I will post them exactly in future.

Now that we have written them all down, let us  discuss scripture. But the verses I quoted are simple, direct and unambiguous. I'm interested to hear your understanding of them since you refused mine.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Matthew 13:3-9, 18-19
"3 Behold, a sower went forth to sow;.... ⁹ Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ... 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom ...

I quoted 1st Timiothy 2:4 to show that God wants all people to be saved. You again did not comment. What is the problem? Don't you believe that God desires that all men be saved?

I quoted Romans 8:29 to show that God has "FOREKNOWLEDGE". You say He doesn't. How then do you read Romans 8:29?

I quoted Romans 1 to show that any man who holds the truth in unrighteousness will be given over by God. Here is Romans 1:21-24.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

I apologize if you have difficulty finding verses. I will post them exactly in future.

Now that we have written them all down, let us  discuss scripture. But the verses I quoted are simple, direct and unambiguous. I'm interested to hear your understanding of them since you refused mine.

 

I am please for the improvement. 

I am trying to make things simple and not for me. But for anyone who participates in this posting by just reading the posts and expect some blessing from it.

I am sure that you are not speaking to your self only, you speak for others who are not under the same influence as you are. 

We do not want to be treated as deprived people, we want to know the whole scripture you are referring to by you as the poster posting it. This way you can also refresh your memory and that will help not to put something down that you thought it was part of the verse when it is not...and because you are giving your understanding that helps the reader to imediatly check if your understanding is scripture based. Another reason is that we need the bible version so we can compare it with the Greek because some versions are not translated word for word. 

And please try not to speak for others so that they do not need to discuss your understanding or misunderstandings about them. Think about that, who has given you the right to talk about others the way you talked about me, telling others that "you do not believe this, and that and that is the scriptures that prove you wrong, please and why to I have to say please.

Just watch your self , hold your horses, revisit the attitude of your ways not to speak about others in that way, ask a question, inquire about something and they will respond. 

I can tell you what I stand for and I am careful not to depart from the scriptures. 

There a lot of things in your posting not scripture based.

And I am trying to bring them to your attention by reference to the scriptures you think that they support your claims as to what you are claiming. 

Keep in mind please that we are not sitting in your bible class that we can be dictated what to believe and what not 

We have an eye for the truth and we are going to exercise it.

Hope for a fruitful discussion. 

AMEN