Israel is “saved” nationally - not as the Christian is

[Dennis1209]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:18 AM, AdHoc said:

You bring good questions.

Thomas; Thomas did not doubt Who our Lord Jesus was. He just doubted the resurrection (still serious). That Thomas is not exchanged by anyone else to sit on a throne judging Israel, he will be in the Kingdom. His lapse is corrected. (By the way, if you could look into the minds of many on this Forum, they believe Who Jesus is, but do not believe in the resurrection. They'll never admit it, but if you were allowed to interrogate them, it would come out).

John Baptist is a sad story. He is designated "greatest born of a WOMAN, but less than the least in the Kingdom." To get into the kingdom one needs to be born of the SPIRIT (Jn.3:3-6). John remains thus the top Israelite, but not born again. The Spirit that he had was the economic Spirit (given for power upon men), not the essential Spirit (given internally for rebirth, eternal and divine life).

Peter lost his Apostleship, but Christ restored him. Our Lord threatened that any man who denied Him before men, He would deny before God, the angels and men. We see Peter denied by Jesus in Mark 16:7. Notice the grammar. 

7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

The word "and" is a conjunction. It joins, it adds and it sets a sequence. So when it says "tell .... AND Peter ... " it implies that Peter is not one of the disciples. He is an extra addition but not of the same company. But unlike Judas, Peter wept. His contrite heart saved him and we learn in 1st Cor.15:5

⁵ And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

The grammar indicates that the Lord had a special and secret meeting with Peter first - to restore him, before being seen by the whole group. The use of "twelve" does not indicate that Matthias was yet selected. But it shows that he was there to see the resurrected Jesus - a qualification for the office of Apostle (Act.1:22)

As to the Jews in the Great Tribulation, the problem is that according to Daniels's prophecy, "Daniel's People" will embrace the Beast. The Beast is allowed to "strengthen THE Covenant" (lit. Heb.) and later, sit in the Temple they built for God (2nd Thess 2:4). At our Lord's trial before Pilate, "ALL the people" chose Caesar as their king. Now, in the final week of Daniel's 70 weeks, they get their Caesar - the Beast. It is this alliance between Israel and the beast that is called "the Abomination of Desolation". And it is this event that so incenses God that He starts the Great Tribulation, or "Jacob's Trouble". 

Thousands, and even millions of Jews will die for this choice. But God always keeps a Remnant - as promised in Romans 9 and 11. This Remnant (found in Revelation Chapter 7) will oppose the unlawful decision to put a man, a Gentile and a Caesar into the Holy of Holies. And just as God would spare Sodom for 10 righteous men, so God is merciful to Israel BECAUSE of the REMNANT. According to Deuteronomy 30:1-5, it is this Remnant that causes God to restore the whole of Israel. It is this Remnant who "keep the commandments of God" in Revelation 12.

The only point that I would dispute is that this Remnant become Christians. At no time until Christ bursts out of the clouds over Jerusalem, does Israel have FAITH. They are shown mercy based on Jesus' efficacy, they are God People, they have Covenants with Him, and they will be the leading Nation in the Millennium with our Lord Jesus, Son of David, as their King - living in Jerusalem. But they can never be "saved" like a Christian. FAITH is needed and Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance of hope in the UNSEEN.

Of course, at least half of the objections to this would disappear if Christians forgot about the Roman Catholic myth that we go to heaven. Man is made from the earth, nourished by the earth, and made to subdue and rule the earth. Our Lord Jesus returns to earth and His Kingdom is ON EARTH.  

 

Your comments on Peter almost reflect verbatim what I've previously written on here in other posts. For brevity, I'm omitting some scripture to support my biblical view, as we know where it is found.

Before men, Peter denied Jesus three times. I believe when Jesus asked Peter "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these" and "lovest thou me" twice. Peter's discipleship - apostleship was restored right then and there. 

As you correctly state, Peter was excluded and separate from the other disciples from your example. In John 21: Jesus calls him, Simon, son of Jonas, Peter's old name, as additional evidence. 

When Jesus askes Simon three times, and Simon responds three times; the Greek words for love used between Jesus and Simon are very interesting and telling. There are two Greek words used for love here, with different meanings and applications used. It almost appears like; Jesus accepted and met Simon Peter on Simon's own terms? 

However, still question remains, and also pertains to OSAS: Had Peter physically died, between his denials and restoration in John 21:, what was Simon's salvation status? In addition to Peter's apostleship of "feed my sheep", was Peter's eternal life restored to him, or did Simon not lose it? 

I personally suspect the answer can be found, by the division between before and after the resurrection of Jesus; the two different dispensations if you will. Your thoughts?

Pertaining to John the Baptist, it appears we have a different hermeneutic view. I believe John the Baptist was the very last prophet, closing out the Old Testament. I think he was the greatest because, he had the honor and privilege of introducing and testifying to Israel's long-awaited Messiah. Because he actually saw with his eyes and personally participated in the fulfillment of what they only prophesied. 

But all believers after the cross are greater still, because they participate in the full understanding and experience of something John merely foresaw in shadowy form—the actual atoning work of Christ.

John was imprisoned and executed before Jesus’ reign was established through His death and resurrection (Ac 2:32–36; Ro 1:4). Thus, disciples who enjoy the present reign of Christ enjoy blessings that John yearned for but did not experience (Mt 13:17). The description of the OT prophets in 1 Pe 1:10–12 accurately portrays the experience of John. These men did not live to see the messianic sufferings and the glories that followed.

It's much too long to delve into, but when John the Baptist was in prison and had doubts, sending two of his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one? Notice what Jesus responded back to John in a cryptic manner (Mat. 11:1-6). If John the Baptist was also a member of the Essenes, John would have immediately known, the Dead Sea scroll's shed a lot of light on this subject. 

I believe it is not a coincidence, that the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered just before Israel became a unified nation once again, on May 14, 1948 (the terminal generation). I see a possible connection between Isa. 29:4 and Dan. 12:4. In addition to the obvious modern travel, mega computers, artificial intelligence, knowledge doubling every few weeks now...

When reading Daniel 12:4, and applying the discovery, all the piecing together, research, and translation of the Dead Sea scrolls over the decades, also seems to be a fit to that scripture? Bible translations have been amended, to fill in many of the italics in our Bibles from the Dead Sea scrolls. 

Just my thoughts AdHoc, good discussion and things to ponder.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

1.     The book of Hebrews is written, as we both agree, to the Hebrew Christians. It was about the Lord being greater than.....And it reveals God`s purpose (because of Christ) for the OT saints, some Israeli and some Gentiles. They had their righteousness, (because of Jesus) according to the revelation they were given from God. They had to believe God and what He promised them. They obeyed in various ways and were accounted righteous. (Abel, sacrifice, Enoch, walked with God, Noah, built Ark, Abraham, waited for the city...)

 

2.     Deut. 30: 6

`And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.`

It is the Lord God who will accomplish this, Israel could never. God will do it when He sees that `their power is gone.` (Deut. 32: 36) `He will provide atonement for His land and His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)

So we see that it is more than just forgiveness of national rebellion but of the land also. Deut. 30: 20 is a summary of `obedience, life, and dwelling in the land.` Christ fulfilled all that - obedience, life for the Father and all that in the land.

BTW I agree that the Olive tree and root is Christ. I never said it was the Church.

 

3.     When I look at scripture I focus first on what God`s purpose is for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations, all through Christ. Thus -

Looking at some people in Israel when Jesus was manifest on earth. He came to His own and some recognised who He was - King of Israel, Son of David and Son of God.

`Where is He born King of the Jews?` (Matt. 2: 2,  the wise men)

`You are the King of Israel.` (John 1: 49,  Nathanael)

`Hosanna to the Son of David! (Matt. 21: 9, the crowd)

`You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.` (Matt. 16: 16,  Peter)

 

Then believers in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile, but called out of Israel and the nations. Then understanding that the Father, made the Lord Jesus, Head of the Body. It is a new group of people in God`s purposes in Christ. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Then Gentiles in the trib, who turn to God are looking for the Jewish Messiah, who will be their king also. (Rev. 15: 1 - 4)

`Great and marvellous are your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the Nations!.` (Rev. 15: 3)

Hope that explains what I think more clearly.

Marilyn.

  

Thanks for the information. We are not far apart.

 

God bless.

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Your comments on Peter almost reflect verbatim what I've previously written on here in other posts. For brevity, I'm omitting some scripture to support my biblical view, as we know where it is found.

Before men, Peter denied Jesus three times. I believe when Jesus asked Peter "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these" and "lovest thou me" twice. Peter's discipleship - apostleship was restored right then and there. 

As you correctly state, Peter was excluded and separate from the other disciples from your example. In John 21: Jesus calls him, Simon, son of Jonas, Peter's old name, as additional evidence. 

When Jesus askes Simon three times, and Simon responds three times; the Greek words for love used between Jesus and Simon are very interesting and telling. There are two Greek words used for love here, with different meanings and applications used. It almost appears like; Jesus accepted and met Simon Peter on Simon's own terms? 

However, still question remains, and also pertains to OSAS: Had Peter physically died, between his denials and restoration in John 21:, what was Simon's salvation status? In addition to Peter's apostleship of "feed my sheep", was Peter's eternal life restored to him, or did Simon not lose it? 

I personally suspect the answer can be found, by the division between before and after the resurrection of Jesus; the two different dispensations if you will. Your thoughts?

Pertaining to John the Baptist, it appears we have a different hermeneutic view. I believe John the Baptist was the very last prophet, closing out the Old Testament. I think he was the greatest because, he had the honor and privilege of introducing and testifying to Israel's long-awaited Messiah. Because he actually saw with his eyes and personally participated in the fulfillment of what they only prophesied. 

But all believers after the cross are greater still, because they participate in the full understanding and experience of something John merely foresaw in shadowy form—the actual atoning work of Christ.

John was imprisoned and executed before Jesus’ reign was established through His death and resurrection (Ac 2:32–36; Ro 1:4). Thus, disciples who enjoy the present reign of Christ enjoy blessings that John yearned for but did not experience (Mt 13:17). The description of the OT prophets in 1 Pe 1:10–12 accurately portrays the experience of John. These men did not live to see the messianic sufferings and the glories that followed.

It's much too long to delve into, but when John the Baptist was in prison and had doubts, sending two of his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one? Notice what Jesus responded back to John in a cryptic manner (Mat. 11:1-6). If John the Baptist was also a member of the Essenes, John would have immediately known, the Dead Sea scroll's shed a lot of light on this subject. 

I believe it is not a coincidence, that the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered just before Israel became a unified nation once again, on May 14, 1948 (the terminal generation). I see a possible connection between Isa. 29:4 and Dan. 12:4. In addition to the obvious modern travel, mega computers, artificial intelligence, knowledge doubling every few weeks now...

When reading Daniel 12:4, and applying the discovery, all the piecing together, research, and translation of the Dead Sea scrolls over the decades, also seems to be a fit to that scripture? Bible translations have been amended, to fill in many of the italics in our Bibles from the Dead Sea scrolls. 

Just my thoughts AdHoc, good discussion and things to ponder.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas. Herewith, a few ramblings.

Yes, our Lord's every word is to be taken seriously. Peter needed to be restored - and was. A yes, I agree. The Lord met Peter on his terms. The Lord asked Peter; "do you "agape" me. Peter's answer was, yes I "philadelphia" you. Peter had learned that fervor was not enough and that he could not love the Lord with the means that he had. His confidence was gone after the cock crew. If I am honest, this is the area we Christians are weakest - that is, loving the Lord in a worthy way (up to His standard). In my old age, it is my chief lack. I do not love the Lord with "agape". I study, I serve, I am calculating and zealous for my birthright. But do I love the Lord with the love that He loves me. I think not. But I am encouraged. How?

If you have nothing to do, look up in John's gospel the phrase; "the disciple whom Jesus loved". You will find it  five times. Read the occasions and you will dicscover that in every case, John outperformed the rest. The lesson I learned from this is, notwithstanding that we are to love Him with abandon, it is far better to trust His love for us. We aspire to great things and are zealous to serve, but if we depend on our love for Him, we will ultimately fail. Peter was sifted by the Devil and failed in his own humanity. And so Ephesus. They had commendable service, but the price made them grow cold. The solution is to rely on His resources. It is "Christ IN you - the hope of glory".

After considering the matter for 4 decades, my tale on OSAS is this: God made man IN a certain way FOR a certain job (Gen.1:26-28). After the fall, to restore man to his former status, he needs to be saved in five areas: They are;

1. He needs to have his sins judicially removed
2. He needs to eat of the Tree of Life
3. He needs to have his Adamic nature removed and replaced by Christ's nature
4. He needs to have his body saved by resurrection
5. He needs to be installed by Christ as a king over the earth and its environs

The prevailing doctrine of salvation in contemporary Christianity is poverty stricken. It belittles God and it belittles Christ's work. God's grand plan with man is reduced to getting 1% of humanity, bruised and battered, into heaven. But if God plan of Genesis 1:26-28 is to be realized, man needs a glorious and complicated salvation. He needs an outside Substitute to deal with his sins. He needs to partake of the divine nature by a an-OTHER birth. He needs to be sanctified and transformed in his soul. He needs to be resurrected. And THEN, with all that, he has to prove that he is worthy to be a co-administrator of this earth in Christ's Kingdom. 

If one has his sins put away, he may be saved from the Lake of Fire. But he is by no mens in possession of the divine nature of God. And even if his sins are put away and he experiences the rebirth, his inherently evil nature will make him unfit to rule a kingdom of RIGHTEOUSNESS. But, even if he is sanctified, his BODY is unfit for the kingdom (1st Cor.15:50). He needs the changes brought about by resurrection. And then, having gone through points 1, 2 and 4, he fails in point 3, he is made unfit for point 5 - the Kingdom. The work of God in putting the man's sin and sins away, the giving of the Holy Spirit in rebirth, and the giving of  anew and heavenly body is all moot if the man stays a drunkard, or adulterer, or dishonest.

It is, in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 NOT the unbeliever, but the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the Kingdom. While forgiveness of sins, rebirth and resurrection are FREE GIFTS had by FAITH, sanctification and training for kingship need the saint's cooperation. Calvin and Arminius missed this. They followed the Roman doctrine of being saved and going to heaven. Of course then OSAS is debatable. But if the goal is the Kingdom, and it entails five steps, it is clear that men can achieve some and miss others. Can a rebirth be undone? No, the man can be killed, or go to jail, or be disinherited - but he cannot undo his birth to his parents. If God's requirements for putting away one's sins are fulled, can the man have them laid on him again? No. That would be unjust. But if he continues to be an habitual sinner, he is DISQUALIFIED from SERVICE and  will be CHASTISED.

In my hermeneutics there is no discussion about OSAS. There is only the question; "did the man qualify for the Kingdom?" Were his sins put away by faith in Christ's Work? Yes. Good. Was he reborn? Yes. OK. Was he sanctified in his lifetime? No, he was rich and trusted in those riches. Oopps! The man is disbarred from being a king! Yes. What do the disciples who were trained by Jesus think of this? Why ... they think he was NOT SAVED! (Matt.19:25). It was not Christ's work that fails. The sins are put away. The man's faith did not fail. He is born again. Will he be resurrected? Yes - it is guaranteed. Was he elected as qualified to rule a city in Christ's kingdom? NO! Then he is not saved says scripture. 

Many (Christians) are called, but few are chosen!

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Many (Christians) are called, but few are chosen!

Just a point on that.

Looking at the sign over the door - `Whosoever will may come.`

Then when you enter the sign on the other side of the door says,`Chosen in Christ.` 

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Just a point on that.

Looking at the sign over the door - `Whosoever will may come.`

Then when you enter the sign on the other side of the door says,`Chosen in Christ.` 

Quite. All are invited. God has foreknowledge (Rom.8:29). He maintains His sovereignty in calling and revealing (Matt.16:17). Then He looks for those called who'll voluntarily set themselves aside for His purpose (Matt.16:24, Lk.9:23).

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for the exchange of ideas. Herewith, a few ramblings.

Yes, our Lord's every word is to be taken seriously. Peter needed to be restored - and was. A yes, I agree. The Lord met Peter on his terms. The Lord asked Peter; "do you "agape" me. Peter's answer was, yes I "philadelphia" you. Peter had learned that fervor was not enough and that he could not love the Lord with the means that he had. His confidence was gone after the cock crew. If I am honest, this is the area we Christians are weakest - that is, loving the Lord in a worthy way (up to His standard). In my old age, it is my chief lack. I do not love the Lord with "agape". I study, I serve, I am calculating and zealous for my birthright. But do I love the Lord with the love that He loves me. I think not. But I am encouraged. How?

If you have nothing to do, look up in John's gospel the phrase; "the disciple whom Jesus loved". You will find it  five times. Read the occasions and you will dicscover that in every case, John outperformed the rest. The lesson I learned from this is, notwithstanding that we are to love Him with abandon, it is far better to trust His love for us. We aspire to great things and are zealous to serve, but if we depend on our love for Him, we will ultimately fail. Peter was sifted by the Devil and failed in his own humanity. And so Ephesus. They had commendable service, but the price made them grow cold. The solution is to rely on His resources. It is "Christ IN you - the hope of glory".

After considering the matter for 4 decades, my tale on OSAS is this: God made man IN a certain way FOR a certain job (Gen.1:26-28). After the fall, to restore man to his former status, he needs to be saved in five areas: They are;

1. He needs to have his sins judicially removed
2. He needs to eat of the Tree of Life
3. He needs to have his Adamic nature removed and replaced by Christ's nature
4. He needs to have his body saved by resurrection
5. He needs to be installed by Christ as a king over the earth and its environs

The prevailing doctrine of salvation in contemporary Christianity is poverty stricken. It belittles God and it belittles Christ's work. God's grand plan with man is reduced to getting 1% of humanity, bruised and battered, into heaven. But if God plan of Genesis 1:26-28 is to be realized, man needs a glorious and complicated salvation. He needs an outside Substitute to deal with his sins. He needs to partake of the divine nature by a an-OTHER birth. He needs to be sanctified and transformed in his soul. He needs to be resurrected. And THEN, with all that, he has to prove that he is worthy to be a co-administrator of this earth in Christ's Kingdom. 

If one has his sins put away, he may be saved from the Lake of Fire. But he is by no mens in possession of the divine nature of God. And even if his sins are put away and he experiences the rebirth, his inherently evil nature will make him unfit to rule a kingdom of RIGHTEOUSNESS. But, even if he is sanctified, his BODY is unfit for the kingdom (1st Cor.15:50). He needs the changes brought about by resurrection. And then, having gone through points 1, 2 and 4, he fails in point 3, he is made unfit for point 5 - the Kingdom. The work of God in putting the man's sin and sins away, the giving of the Holy Spirit in rebirth, and the giving of  anew and heavenly body is all moot if the man stays a drunkard, or adulterer, or dishonest.

It is, in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 NOT the unbeliever, but the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the Kingdom. While forgiveness of sins, rebirth and resurrection are FREE GIFTS had by FAITH, sanctification and training for kingship need the saint's cooperation. Calvin and Arminius missed this. They followed the Roman doctrine of being saved and going to heaven. Of course then OSAS is debatable. But if the goal is the Kingdom, and it entails five steps, it is clear that men can achieve some and miss others. Can a rebirth be undone? No, the man can be killed, or go to jail, or be disinherited - but he cannot undo his birth to his parents. If God's requirements for putting away one's sins are fulled, can the man have them laid on him again? No. That would be unjust. But if he continues to be an habitual sinner, he is DISQUALIFIED from SERVICE and  will be CHASTISED.

In my hermeneutics there is no discussion about OSAS. There is only the question; "did the man qualify for the Kingdom?" Were his sins put away by faith in Christ's Work? Yes. Good. Was he reborn? Yes. OK. Was he sanctified in his lifetime? No, he was rich and trusted in those riches. Oopps! The man is disbarred from being a king! Yes. What do the disciples who were trained by Jesus think of this? Why ... they think he was NOT SAVED! (Matt.19:25). It was not Christ's work that fails. The sins are put away. The man's faith did not fail. He is born again. Will he be resurrected? Yes - it is guaranteed. Was he elected as qualified to rule a city in Christ's kingdom? NO! Then he is not saved says scripture. 

Many (Christians) are called, but few are chosen!

Hi AdHoc,

A lot of good points there. Many just focus on `Salvation` but that is just the means to God`s goal of our inheritance in Christ.

Now I am interested to know `where` you see we will be reigning with Christ. Can you enlarge on that please? (With a few scriptures please.)

I do have my thoughts but would like you to share as you have touched upon that.

[Marilyn C]

Also Ad Hoc, just an interesting question for you.

Adam and Eve were NOT mentioned in Heb. 11, for it started with Abel, by faith. As Adam and Eve actually `saw` `walked` with God, where do you think they will be in the NH & NE? 

[AdHoc]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

A lot of good points there. Many just focus on `Salvation` but that is just the means to God`s goal of our inheritance in Christ.

Now I am interested to know `where` you see we will be reigning with Christ. Can you enlarge on that please? (With a few scriptures please.)

I do have my thoughts but would like you to share as you have touched upon that.

Luke 19:11-26:
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

From Genesis 1:26-28 God has never wavered from His stated goal. The previous "Prince of this world" left his domain in shambles. See Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. After 1,500 years of having the "Oracles of God" in their possession, the Jew seeks a LAND. That is why in verse 11 above, they expected God's Kingdom, no doubt that of their prophet Daniel in Chapter 2, "TO APPEAR". There is no thought of them going anywhere. The Kingdom will "fill the whole earth" (Dan.2:35).

Verse 12 confirms this. The Nobleman, Jesus, corrects this idea. Not the idea of the Kingdom COMING to earth, but of the TIMING. The Jews have rejected their Messiah and God must now set aside some time to raise up a New Company of co-kings (Act.15:14-17). Note; "AND RETURN". The Kingdom is received i heaven but brought to earth.

Verse 13; Before leaving He gives gifts with which to "Occupy". The Greek word actually means "trade".

Verse 14 introduces "citizens" as opposed to "servants". This Israel. Israel's crisis was not Roman occupation. It was their breaking of the Law (see Lev.26 & Deut.28). But this message is abhorrent to men. Israel wanted their kingdom back but refused the word "repent". For being exposed as Law-breakers they "hated" their Messiah.

The interim explains itself, but I would point out one point. In Matthew 25 and the "Talents", faithfulness is judged and both the servants who multiplied Talents are commended. Here in Luke, diligence is judged. The servants who were diligent received, as their reward KINGSHIP over a city or cities. But note that the very diligent servant who traded one for ten pounds, is commended and then given ten cities. The servant who multiplied fivefold is given cities but not commended.

Now, your question was WHERE? And we have established that Messiah goes to heaven, receives the Kingdom and returns to where the servants and Israel are - EARTH. He judges His servants and then His citizens. Now, let's be practical. If you are found (i) having loved the Lord's coming, (ii) having loved the Lord, (iii) having been faithful (Matt.25), (iv) having "bought" extra oil (Matt.25), (v) having a garment of works fit for the wedding feast (Rev.19:7-8), (vi) having lost your soul-life in self denial, and (vii) having habitually been obedient to the Father (Matt.7:21-23), you will become king of one or more cities. But there is a prevailing doctrine that we will spend this time "with the Lord", and this seems to be supported by 1st Thessalonians 4:17c; "... and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

But what if you are king of Perth, Australia? The Lord will live bodily in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). How shall we reconcile this?

If we go back to Genesis Chapter 2, we discover the same thing. To His pristine man, God says, "fill the earth", or "replenish the earth". God never intended man to be fruitful and multiply and stay in Mesopotamia. So how was the Garden of Eden to be maintained? The answer lies in John Chapter 4.

The Samaritans worshiped in Mt. Gerizim. The Jews worshiped in Mt. Moriah. But what was God looking for? He was looking for men and women to worship Him IN THEIR HUMAN SPIRIT where He dwelt if a man believed. If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, God would have been IN him. Fruit enters a man through the mouth and becomes metabolically one with the man. God enters through the mouth of man who believes and CONFESSES Him and enters the human spirit in rebirth (Jn.3:6). Jesus "breathes" the Holy Spirit into men's mouths (Jn.20:22). And then men are to be "led" by God in their human spirits (Rom.8:14).

The True worshipers of God carry Him wherever they go! And Paul unambiguously confirms this in 2nd Corinthians 5:16!  

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

That is, God's original plan was not a fleshly relationship with Him, but a SPIRITUAL relationship - and so John 14 confirms; "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (v.20).

If you make king of a city, or cities, among the things listed above, you will have schooled yourself to meet Christ INSIDE of you, and being in Perth, Australia won't matter one bit. But we still have to deal with 1st Thessalonians 4:17. What does it mean, "... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.". The word "so" could mean three things;

1. we will be in the air with him forever
2. we will be with Him where ever He goes
3. we will be with Him in resurrection

How shall we discover which one is correct? Why, the context - as always. The problem in the Church in Thessaloniki was that Paul had only been with them for three weeks before he escaped death and left the city. In three weeks he taught the Rapture and told the saints to be ready at any and all times. Then, after Paul was gone, some of the saints died and those still alive thought that they would miss the Rapture (for the Rapture is only for the living - one is caught away BODILY). So Paul corrects this thought by showing that the Christians are only Raptured after resurrection. The dead in Christ "RISE" to the surface from Hades, meet the living there, and "TOGETHER" are caught away to the clouds.

Of course, as 1st Corinthians 15:50-54 tells, the living will be changed in about 4/100ths of a second (the blink of an eye), and so they too will have their resurrection bodies. It is in this way that we will ever be with the Lord - not in a state of flesh, but resurrection. Our Bodies will have been made fit for the Kingdom which Christ sets up ON EARTH. But the RELATIONSHIP with Christ our King and Husband is via the HUMAN SPIRIT - as it was planned from the beginning.

Can you see this?

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Quite. All are invited. God has foreknowledge (Rom.8:29). He maintains His sovereignty in calling and revealing (Matt.16:17). Then He looks for those called who'll voluntarily set themselves aside for His purpose (Matt.16:24, Lk.9:23).

This is double talk. 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Also Ad Hoc, just an interesting question for you.

Adam and Eve were NOT mentioned in Heb. 11, for it started with Abel, by faith. As Adam and Eve actually `saw` `walked` with God, where do you think they will be in the NH & NE? 

OK. Because all men will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), all men will be on the New Earth. Men are then divided into one of four Companies.

1. The Church making the City and ruling
2. Israel making the Gates of the City and vetting the Nations
3. Those of the Nations who found not having actively opposing God (Isa.66:24)*
4. Those of the Nations who actively went against God *

Adam believed God and named His wife"mother of the living". Eve believed God and thought that Cain was the "seed" promised. There is some evidence that they had faith in this "seed" - the Messiah. But I would not go to the barricades for it.

 

* A study of men's judgment by God (actually Jesus Himself) will show that men and angels are judged based on works (Jesus is given the highest place and fame because of what He DID). See Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 for the Church. See Daniel 12:2 for Israel. See Matthew 25:31-46 for the living of the Nations, and Revelation 20 for the "rest of the dead". Because our sins are put away, we are judged for works AFTER conversion. This also means that still born infants, young children who are killed and the impaired do not go to the Lake of Fire. The Mongolian shepherd boy, who just lived and died and never heard the gospel will join those of point #3. But murder, blasphemy, striking a Jew or Christian etc., will be punished by the Second Death. Isaiah 66:24 describes how we will "look upon" these. Since we are on earth at the time, so also will the Lake of Fire be on earth.

Edited November 30, 2021 by AdHoc
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