AdHoc - Regarding, "There is NO rapture for the Jews.

[AdHoc]

19 minutes ago, The Light said:

Chapter 4 Begins with a window opening in heaven. Then the 24 elders are seen with their crowns before the throne. They can't get those crowns until they see the appearance of Jesus. Chapter 5 Shows kings and priest in heaven from every nation, tongue, and kindred and is the Church.

Chapter 6 is seals. The second beast goes forth conquering and to conquer. The beginning of sorrows is war, famine and pestilence which is the 4 horsemen. We see the great tribulation at the 5th seal and then Jesus returns at the 6th seal and there is a rapture. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The tribulation is over and the wrath of God will begin soon.

Chapter 7 shows the sealing of the 144,000, meaning that they are now believers in Jesus the Christ. Then we see the great multitude which includes the Church, the 144,000 that were redeemed from the earth, and the 12 tribes that are now raptured along with the risen dead believers.

Chapter 8-9 are the 1st 6 trumpets of wrath, with the wrath of God beginning with the 1st trumpet. Chapter 10 has the 7 thunders which are sealed up, and tells us when the 7th trumpet begins to blow the mystery of God is finished, meaning the wrath of God is over. John is told to eat the little book and told Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Chapter 11 - When John prophesies again he takes us BACK to the events that occur during Tribulation with the two witnesses prophesying for a thousand two hundred and threescore days. At the end of this time, we are at the end of the second woe. Then the third woe comes with the 7th angel sounding the trumpet and the wrath of ending.

Chapter 12 Regards the nation of Israel and her seed, the twelve tribes across the earth who are killed during the great tribulation.

Two beast presented. Which puts us back at the 1st seal with the rider on the white horse, the second beast. The transition was when the wrath of God was over at the 7th trump.

The 12 tribes have their first fruits before the throne. The rest of the twelve tribes are in tribulation and the great tribulation as the dragon seeks to kill the seed of the woman. Jesus returns at the end of Rev 14, which is the same return of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the same return of Jesus in Matthew 24. Then the wrath of God is ready to begin, which is the same event that occurs at the end of the 6th seal.

Chapter 15-16 The tribulation is over and Jesus comes toward the end of Rev 14. Rev 15 and 16 are just another view of the wrath of God.

 

I appreciate your view and am familiar with the school of thought that makes a difference between the Great Tribulation and God's wrath. If you ever want to prove it, we can discuss. Tonight I'll let it stand. Fact is, I have a long day tomorrow and need a good night's rest - oopps! It's tomorrow already (00:10 here now).

But I will comment on the Woman of Revelation 12. I am aware of the argument that if we interpret scripture with scripture, we have to consider Joseph's dream in Genesis 37. But there is only one point of similarity in all that. I won't go through them all, but have you considered that Israel came from FOUR women, not one. In the dream Jacob is the sun. But the woman of Revelation 12 is CLOTHED with the sun. And so on ... . But the crucial difference is that Israel was never, and never will be in heaven where the woman is. 

Next, Israel were never pregnant, and never produced a seed that is raptured to the throne after Satan is cast out of heaven - for Satan accosts her ON EARTH as she enters labor for the Man-child. Again, Israel has never produced seed that "has the testimony of Jesus Christ". That was Jesus in His death in John 12:24. Israel persecuted those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And so we could go on with the differences.

But ... we'll leave that for another thread and for another day.

Go well bro.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I appreciate that you have held to this sequence and you certainly have some proof for it. I will briefly show you the difficulties with it.

When Moses made the Tabernacle, he was commanded by God to copy the pattern of the Tabernacle in heaven. So also David as he prepared the plans for Solomon. So that the Tabernacle / Temple would always have service, David divided the family of Levi into 24 courses. Each course left their homes and families for two weeks of the year and served the Tabernacle / Temple. Now, if Moses / David made the Tabernacle / Temple according to the pattern of the Tabernacle in heaven, what are the chances that this idea of 24 priestly courses was copied too?

The number of God's People is 12, not 24. I maintain that there is no evidence that the 24 Elders are Christians, but that they are servants of the most High's Tabernacle in heaven. That is, they are angels.

This is certainly something to consider. However, I believe that the 24 elders are people based on the following.

Rev 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And again I will mention that the 24 elders CANNOT receive their crowns until Jesus appears to them, which he does at the pretribulation rapture.

1 Peter 5

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

A further proof is that in Revelation Chapter 14, we have the "firstfruits of the Lamb"  - the Overcomers of the Church.

No sir. In chapter 14 the first fruits are not overcomers of the Church. We are specifically told who they are in Chapter 7.

Rev 7

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And they are SEPARATE from the 24 Elders.

Yes they are.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Further proof is that they already had crowns, but must cast them down in favor of the New High Priest - Jesus. Christians get their crowns after Jesus does, and do not cast them down (see 1st Pet.5:4, Rev.3:11).

1 Peter 5

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

The 24 elders receive their crown when Jesus appears to them. He will appear to them at the pretribulation rapture.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think the evidence is quite strong that the 24 Elders are the heavenly servants of the heavenly Tabernacle.

I think the elders are out of the people of the earth and will reign on the earth.

Rev 

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are clearly said to be of the Tribes of Israel.

Agreed. Not sure why you called them the overcomers of the church earlier. The Church is not mentioned after Rev 3 until Rev 19 at the marriage supper.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Romans 11 says that Israel remain in unbelief till they see Christ.

I believe it says blindness in part will be removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Those 144,000, twelve thousand from each tribe will have their blindness removed as proven by the FACT that they are sealed. You are sealed when you believe that Christ is the Messiah. They are Christians. It is those in the nation of Israel that flee that are still blind until they see the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, Matthew 24, Rev 14. Those in Israel go through the wrath of God in a place of protection but will become believers after the coming of Jesus as all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

As these 144,000 are sealed BEFORE the Great Tribulation, they cannot be believers. Added to this, they are "sealed" so that the Great Tribulation does not hurt them (Rev.9:4)

What you are not understanding is that the tribulation is over and then Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth. THEN the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Again, the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Additionally, those that are sealed to go through the wrath of God are those that are of the nation of Israel that fled to the protected place. The 144,000 are off the earth before the great tribulation as has been previously proven.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

, not so they believe. Added to this, when an Israelite believes he is no longer an Israelite, but a New Man with no past (2nd Cor.5:17). In the Church there is "NO Jew ..." (Gal.3:28, Co.3:11).

Yeah, that doesn't fly in the scope things. The Jews can't see to believe until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So each thing in their order. Additionally, Christ says he is bringing two groups into one fold. That does not happen until the gathering from heaven and earth.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

BTW, have enjoyed conversing with you. You are well schooled in the word.

Edited November 29, 2021 by The Light

[The Light]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I appreciate your view and am familiar with the school of thought that makes a difference between the Great Tribulation and God's wrath. If you ever want to prove it, we can discuss. Tonight I'll let it stand. Fact is, I have a long day tomorrow and need a good night's rest - oopps! It's tomorrow already (00:10 here now).

But I will comment on the Woman of Revelation 12. I am aware of the argument that if we interpret scripture with scripture, we have to consider Joseph's dream in Genesis 37. But there is only one point of similarity in all that. I won't go through them all, but have you considered that Israel came from FOUR women, not one. In the dream Jacob is the sun. But the woman of Revelation 12 is CLOTHED with the sun. And so on ... . But the crucial difference is that Israel was never, and never will be in heaven where the woman is. 

Next, Israel were never pregnant, and never produced a seed that is raptured to the throne after Satan is cast out of heaven - for Satan accosts her ON EARTH as she enters labor for the Man-child. Again, Israel has never produced seed that "has the testimony of Jesus Christ". That was Jesus in His death in John 12:24. Israel persecuted those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And so we could go on with the differences.

But ... we'll leave that for another thread and for another day.

Go well bro.

Get some rest brother. Got a long day myself. 

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, The Light said:

This is certainly something to consider. However, I believe that the 24 elders are people based on the following.

Rev 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And again I will mention that the 24 elders CANNOT receive their crowns until Jesus appears to them, which he does at the pretribulation rapture.

1 Peter 5

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

No sir. In chapter 14 the first fruits are not overcomers of the Church. We are specifically told who they are in Chapter 7.

Rev 7

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe.

Yes they are.

1 Peter 5

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

The 24 elders receive their crown when Jesus appears to them. He will appear to them at the pretribulation rapture.

I think the elders are out of the people of the earth and will reign on the earth.

Rev 

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Agreed. Not sure why you called them the overcomers of the church earlier. The Church is not mentioned after Rev 3 until Rev 19 at the marriage supper.

I believe it says blindness in part will be removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Those 144,000, twelve thousand from each tribe will have their blindness removed as proven by the FACT that they are sealed. You are sealed when you believe that Christ is the Messiah. They are Christians. It is those in the nation of Israel that flee that are still blind until they see the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, Matthew 24, Rev 14. Those in Israel go through the wrath of God in a place of protection but will become believers after the coming of Jesus as all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

What you are not understanding is that the tribulation is over and then Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth. THEN the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Again, the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Additionally, those that are sealed to go through the wrath of God are those that are of the nation of Israel that fled to the protected place. The 144,000 are off the earth before the great tribulation as has been previously proven.

Yeah, that doesn't fly in the scope things. The Jews can't see to believe until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So each thing in their order. Additionally, Christ says he is bringing two groups into one fold. That does not happen until the gathering from heaven and earth.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

BTW, have enjoyed conversing with you. You are well schooled in the word.

Your objections are in the main, two.

1. You claim that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are the same company as those of 14. This I will disprove.
2. You claim the song in Revelation 5 is sung by the 24 Elders, making the "us" them.

I will answer #2 first for it is easy. According to Chapter 4 the 24 Elders and 4 living creatures are already in heaven when John is raptured to heaven. John witnesses the coronation of Jesus, and the fact that Jesus is now in HIS throne, not the Father's. Who then is raptured before John? And who gets their crown before John?

Next, the 4 Living Creatures are present on earth as God withdraws from the Temple in the first Chapter of Ezekiel. They had four faces and wings. Which Christians were present around 500 BC? Which Christians have wings around 500 BC? The reason you must answer this is that the grammar of Revelation 5:8 is that BOTH the 24 Elders and the 4 Living creatures sing that song.

It is correct, according to the rules of grammar, to say that the 24 Elders and th 4 Living Creatures sang that song. But if we apply the rule of the last mentioned subject, the song could equally come from the saints. After all, it was THEIR prayers. I am aware that there are as many exceptions as there are rules, but the history of the 24 Elders who already have crowns when Christ did not, and the history of the 4 living creatures, make them unlikely candidates for redemption. And finally, 24 is not the number of God's people.

What if the "song" was contained in the "prayers of the saints". The grammar allows "they" to be the last mentioned subject and thus modified by the verb.

Lastly, there is no record of the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures reigning on earth. But the saints do. I propose that the song is sung by the saints, and thus the "us" does not pertain to the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures.

Point #1 is just as easily answered. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are only similar in their number. In every other aspect they are different.

1. Those of 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are in heaven
2. Those of 7 are Israelites whose Father is Abraham. Thse of 14 have God as their Father - indicating rebirth
3. Those of 7 have a seal on their foreheads - Those of 14 have HIS Father's name on their foreheads. God is Father by REBIRTH
4. Those 0f 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth"
5. Those of 7 are Israelites and reject Christ - Those of 14 "follow the Lamb"
6. Those of 7 are Israelites - Those of 14 are Virgins. Only Christians are called Virgins in the Bible (2nd Cor.12:2)
7. Those of 7 are Israelites, sons of Abraham - Those of 14 are "bought from among men"
8. Those of 7 are Israelites who rejected the Lamb - Those of 14 are firstfruits of the Lamb. Only Christians are firstfruits (Jas.1:18)
9. Israel reject Christ with their mouths - those of 14 have no guile in their mouths
10. Israel refuse Christ -  those of 14 are blameless

They cannot be the same company of men.

 

[The Light]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your objections are in the main, two.

1. You claim that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are the same company as those of 14. This I will disprove.
2. You claim the song in Revelation 5 is sung by the 24 Elders, making the "us" them.

I will answer #2 first for it is easy. According to Chapter 4 the 24 Elders and 4 living creatures are already in heaven when John is raptured to heaven. John witnesses the coronation of Jesus, and the fact that Jesus is now in HIS throne, not the Father's. Who then is raptured before John? And who gets their crown before John?

A window is opened in heaven which is a picture of the rapture. Those 24 elders likely came in the rapture.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Next, the 4 Living Creatures are present on earth as God withdraws from the Temple in the first Chapter of Ezekiel. They had four faces and wings. Which Christians were present around 500 BC? Which Christians have wings around 500 BC? The reason you must answer this is that the grammar of Revelation 5:8 is that BOTH the 24 Elders and the 4 Living creatures sing that song.

I can't answer this at this time.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is correct, according to the rules of grammar, to say that the 24 Elders and th 4 Living Creatures sang that song. But if we apply the rule of the last mentioned subject, the song could equally come from the saints. After all, it was THEIR prayers. I am aware that there are as many exceptions as there are rules, but the history of the 24 Elders who already have crowns when Christ did not, and the history of the 4 living creatures, make them unlikely candidates for redemption. And finally, 24 is not the number of God's people.

Those 24 elders can't get their crowns until Jesus appears to them. I already quoted the scripture.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

What if the "song" was contained in the "prayers of the saints". The grammar allows "they" to be the last mentioned subject and thus modified by the verb.

Lastly, there is no record of the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures reigning on earth. But the saints do. I propose that the song is sung by the saints, and thus the "us" does not pertain to the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures.

That's ok with me. The "us" obviously represents the Church as there are more kindreds and tongues and people and nations than 24

 

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Point #1 is just as easily answered. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are only similar in their number. In every other aspect they are different.

1. Those of 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are in heaven

Those of 14 were obviously redeemed from the earth. That's like saying that those of 7 are caterpillars and those of 14 are butterflies. They have changed.

 

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2.Those of 7 are Israelites whose Father is Abraham. Thse of 14 have God as their Father - indicating rebirth

Those of 7 are sealed meaning they are Christians as I have already quoted the scripture.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. Those of 7 have a seal on their foreheads - Those of 14 have HIS Father's name on their foreheads. God is Father by REBIRTH

 

Ditto above

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. Those 0f 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth"
2. Those of 7 are Israelites and reject Christ - Those of 14 "follow the Lamb"
3. Those of 7 are Israelites - Those of 14 are Virgins. Only Christians are called Virgins in the Bible (2nd Cor.12:2)
4. Those of 7 are Israelites, sons of Abraham - Those of 14 are "bought from among men"
5. Those of 7 are Israelites who rejected the Lamb - Those of 14 are firstfruits of the Lamb. Only Christians are firstfruits (Jas.1:18)
6. Israel reject Christ with their mouths - those of 14 have no guile in their mouths
7. Israel refuse Christ -  those of 14 are blameless

They cannot be the same company of men.

 

When you make a list it is rough to answer point by point.

Those of 7 do not reject Christ. When they are sealed they have become believers.

2 Cor 1:22

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I don't think that you are understanding that those that are sealed are now believers. 

Chapter 14 of Revelation happens during the 6 seals of Rev Chapter 6. 

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

...

When you make a list it is rough to answer point by point.

Those of 7 do not reject Christ. When they are sealed they have become believers.

2 Cor 1:22

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I don't think that you are understanding that those that are sealed are now believers. 

Chapter 14 of Revelation happens during the 6 seals of Rev Chapter 6. 

 

The argument was not that they weren't "sealed". It is that those of 14 are NOT SEALED - contrasting them. Those of 7 are sealed so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not kill them. That is a totally different thing to being sealed by the Holy Spirit for resurrection.

A man is a believer, not because he is "sealed". Were did that idea come from? The very examples you gave show men sealed as a result of already having the holy Spirit. Those of 7 are from Israel and Israel is in UNBELIEF.

Those differences I gave, or better said, which scripture shows, are irreconcilable. A Jew who is in unbelief "till the fulness of the Gentiles" CANNOT believe. A man sealed is a man sealed. Scripture does not know "sealed" equaling "saved".  

[The Light]

On 11/30/2021 at 10:00 AM, AdHoc said:

The argument was not that they weren't "sealed". It is that those of 14 are NOT SEALED - contrasting them.

Those of 14 are first fruits. They are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne. Therefore, they are believers and are sealed.

Eph 1

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

On 11/30/2021 at 10:00 AM, AdHoc said:

Those of 7 are sealed so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not kill them.

If you read my earlier posts, THE TRIBULATION IS OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

Secondly you would see that those of Rev 7 DO NOT GO THROUGH THE WRATH OF GOD. The ones that are sealed and go through the wrath of God are those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection.

Here is the Great tribulation in Matt 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the Great Tribulation in Rev 6

Rev 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Which we can prove by Rev 7

Rev 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here is the Great Tribulation in Rev 14

Rev 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

There is only one Great Tribulation. We can see it in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14.

What happens immediately after the tribulation. Jesus comes.

Here is the coming of Jesus in Matt 24.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 6

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

There is one Great Tribulation. There is one coming of Jesus where He remains in the clouds. You see the exact same story three times (Matt 24, Rev 6, Rev 14). The 144,000 you see in Rev 7 are the exact same 144,000 that you see in Rev 14

 

On 11/30/2021 at 10:00 AM, AdHoc said:

 

That is a totally different thing to being sealed by the Holy Spirit for resurrection.

A man is a believer, not because he is "sealed". Were did that idea come from? The very examples you gave show men sealed as a result of already having the holy Spirit. Those of 7 are from Israel and Israel is in UNBELIEF.

Those differences I gave, or better said, which scripture shows, are irreconcilable. A Jew who is in unbelief "till the fulness of the Gentiles" CANNOT believe. A man sealed is a man sealed. Scripture does not know "sealed" equaling "saved".  

See my above post to prove this is incorrect. Additionally, God turns His attention to the Jews in the 70th week Daniel and part of Israel has it's blindness removed. Those 144,000 of the twelve tribes are believers.

Edited December 2, 2021 by The Light

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Those of 14 are first fruits. They are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne. Therefore, they are believers and are sealed.

Eph 1

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If you read my earlier posts, THE TRIBULATION IS OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

Secondly you would see that those of Rev 7 DO NOT GO THROUGH THE WRATH OF GOD. The ones that are sealed and go through the wrath of God are those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection.

Here is the Great tribulation in Matt 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the Great Tribulation in Rev 6

Rev 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Which we can prove by Rev 7

Rev 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here is the Great Tribulation in Rev 14

Rev 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

There is only one Great Tribulation. We can see it in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14.

What happens immediately after the tribulation. Jesus comes.

Here is the coming of Jesus in Matt 24.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 6

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

There is one Great Tribulation. There is one coming of Jesus where He remains in the clouds. You see the exact same story three times (Matt 24, Rev 6, Rev 14). The 144,000 you see in Rev 7 are the exact same 144,000 that you see in Rev 14

 

See my above post to prove this is incorrect. Additionally, God turns His attention to the Jews in the 70th week Daniel and part of Israel has it's blindness removed. Those 144,000 of the twelve tribes are believers.

In your first section you maintain that Israelites, because they are sealed, are saved. You give an example then of a Church. But you failed to show that;

1. Israel stay in unbelief till the end of the age - how could they be saved. One is not saved by being sealed. One is saved through FAITH
2. The Church at Ephesus is first saved THEN sealed.
3. The Isralites were sealed so that the disaters that were to come upon men would not hurt them (Rev.9:4)
4. The saints at Ephesus were sealed for resurrection
5. In both cases sealed had nothing to do with salvation

Your second section is fully based on the belief that the Great Tribulation is different from God's wrath. The word "wrath" is used 13 times in Revelation. TEN of these thirteen say that what was happening was GOD'S WRATH. I propose that what happened in Revelation is God's wrath. Added to this, God's wrath is predicted in Romans 1:18. It is issued because of ungodliness. What the Nations have done from the Abomination of Desolation is ungodliness. Up to the Abomination of Desolation we have "men's wrath against Christians". From the Abomination of Desolation. God vents His wrath against men.

Your last section says that the 144,000 of Chapter 7 are the EXACT same as those of Chapter 14. What do do think of this?

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are only similar in their number. In every other aspect they are different.

1. Those of 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are in heaven
2. Those of 7 are Israelites whose Father is Abraham. Thse of 14 have God as their Father - indicating rebirth
3. Those of 7 have a seal on their foreheads - Those of 14 have HIS Father's name on their foreheads. God is Father by REBIRTH
4. Those 0f 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth"
5. Those of 7 are Israelites and reject Christ - Those of 14 "follow the Lamb"
6. Those of 7 are Israelites - Those of 14 are Virgins. Only Christians are called Virgins in the Bible (2nd Cor.12:2)
7. Those of 7 are Israelites, sons of Abraham - Those of 14 are "bought from among men"
8. Those of 7 are Israelites who rejected the Lamb - Those of 14 are firstfruits of the Lamb. Only Christians are firstfruits (Jas.1:18)
9. Israel reject Christ with their mouths - those of 14 have no guile in their mouths
10. Israel refuse Christ -  those of 14 are blameless

They cannot be the same company of men.

Edited December 2, 2021 by AdHoc

[Alive]

I was speaking to my next door neighbor, a Christian yesterday and this subject came up.

I suggested she begin in Matt. 21:18 and pay particulalr attention to the audience, what Jesus said to them (a great deal) and then at the end of that long day, pay particular attention to the question His disciples asked and His response. At the very least, an unbiased reading may raise an eyebrow. Read it as though for the first time and from a 1st century perspective---a Jewish 1st century perspective.

[WilliamL]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

There is one Great Tribulation. There is one coming of Jesus where He remains in the clouds. You see the exact same story three times (Matt 24, Rev 6, Rev 14). The 144,000 you see in Rev 7 are the exact same 144,000 that you see in Rev 14

I'll give you two out of three.   Those being Matt. 24 and Rev. 6, which both foretell the same order of events.

With respect to the harvest of Rev. 14, however, this is an entirely different, post-rapture animal. Why? because there is a big difference between the firstfruits and the harvest.

"Under the typology of the Mosaic Law, only the best of the harvest, the firstfruits, were/are to be taken up to God’s Tabernacle. In the End Times, the Tabernacle of God is “the true Tabernacle which the Lord erected…in heaven.” Heb. 8:1-2; Rev. 11:19; 15:5 ...

" Firstfruits are but a small portion of any harvest. The greater parts of both Israel and the Gentile Church will remain on Earth, because they will not have been “ready” at Christ’s return. Matt. 24:44; 25:10 Of the congregation nurtured by the Woman of Revelation 12, the ones who remain in the wilderness, being fed for 1260 days, will be the largest group of the earthbound, non-firstborn, non-elect believers in Christ. However, Revelation 12 also tells of “the rest of her offspring, who [1] keep the commandments of God, and [2] have the testimony of Jesus.” This “rest of her offspring” represents individuals and smaller groups of God’s faithful scattered around the globe. ...

" Following the typology of Mosaic Law, only the Firstfruits/Firstborn are to be brought before God’s sanctuary, the heavenly sanctuary. God’s people from the main harvest receive the secondary blessing, that is, becoming partakers of the earthly portion of the Kingdom of Heaven:

" Matthew 6:10 “Thy Kingdom come…on earth as it is in heaven.”

" Those gathered to the place or places wherein the earthly Kingdom is first established will be the ones “gathered into the storehouse.” "

These excerpts are taken from the following blog articles:

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

58. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-2/