Two questions for pretribulationists

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Correction, his "mouth" is given to reign 42 months. 13:5

As far as the saints the Beast kills: there will be post-Rapture saints on earth, including the 144,000. Because when Jesus appears in the clouds, "and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him," then many will be come to faith in him, as we are told in Heb. 12:10.

"The abomination of desolation" is a term from Daniel 12:11 (an End Time prophecy), not Daniel 9:27 (a prophecy about the fall of the Aaronic priesthood Temple). The Hebrew therein does not use that term, despite what your Bible may say.

The literal Hebrew says in verse 26,

…וְהָעִיר/and the city וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ/and the sanctuary/holy place יַשְׁחִית/he shall cause to ruin/destroy [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] עַם/people נָגִיד/of a leader/commander הַבָּא/the one coming in [Qal Active Participle ms with ה prefix]…

“…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary.” …

The commander "coming in" (to Israel) was Vespasian, whose people destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. That Jerusalem Temple, with the Aaronic blood sacrifices etc., is what Daniel 9:27 was prophesying about. Which prophecy has been fulfilled. \

But the prophecy of Daniel 12:11, which Jesus quoted, has not yet been fulfilled. As that prophecy say nothing about blood sacrifices.

Daniel 9:26 and 9:27 are fully translated and explained here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1592-daniel-924-27-examined-part-4-verse-26/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

You have a strange way of rendering Revelation 13:5. Here is how 49 of the best Greek and Hebrew scholars of the day render it. 

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto HIM to continue forty and two months.

But even so, this does not change to sense of verse 7. My question still stands. How can there be saints to make war with  and "overcome" (not "kill" as you rendered it) if the rapture has taken place? In any case, if the Beast "killed" them how could they flee to a wilderness in Chapter 12 and be "out of the Great Tribulation alive in Chapter 7?

"The Abomination of Desolation" is a term used by the Holy Spirit in Matthew 24 and it is He that says what is meant in Daniel.

Your literal rendering says what the KJV and NKJV say.

"The people of the leader which is to come destroy the sanctuary." There is a leader who is to COME (future to the destruction). And this Leader is of the PEOPLE who WILL (future) destroy the sanctuary. Since Solomon's Temple was already destroyed at the time of writing, the sanctuary mentioned must be that of 70 AD. And the "people" are the Romans. This "leader" is future to this destruction AND he desolates.

It does no good to divert to Daniel 12 when I posted Daniel 9. There, the oblation is clearly said. This in turn means that the Law is being practiced again and they are connected with the Temple, which in turn means that a third Temple is standing, which in turn agrees with 2nd Thessalonians 2. And this all agrees with the "leaves" of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24.

I know that translation, especially from such rich languages as Hebrew and Greek, presents problems, but the conditions under which the 1611 was translated have never been matches again. What has sprung up is the "text critics" who do all in their power to say that the things said by the Holy Spirit are either wrong, or don't mean what they say. If this be so, God, Who claims all sovereignty in the affairs of men, left His Church with an inaccurate account for the gospel age. Who shall I believe? 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/14/2021 at 3:14 PM, The Light said:

Is it a mistranslation that these 24 elders have crowns, which we know are rewards?

Rev 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

Hi Light,

"Is it a mistranslation that these 24 elders have crowns, which we know are rewards?"

How do WE know they are rewards? Crowns of gold, ie stephanos, is also used in Rev 9:7 for instance..."the locusts having crowns like gold" . Surely they are not the same as  victory crowns that believers who overcome wear.  We have to look at the context they are used in.

In Rev 4, John is describing the Throne Room of God. The 24 elders are on thrones and are wearing gold crowns...stefanos (stephanos).... (the same as the locusts wear in 9:7). Could these be members of a heavenly council of angelic beings?  Let's look at a few other scriptures:

Ps 89:7...." A God greatly feared in the council of the holy ones...And awesome above all those who are around Him"

Isa 24:23...." Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed...For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion ... and His glory will be before His elders"

Daniel 7:9..." I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the ancient of days took His seat....the court sat, and the books were opened."

Daniel says that '''thrones were set up...." This is the heavenly council.

Dan 7:26............"But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion taken away"

Why is it that you think that God's courtroom will only house ONE throne? 

These 24 elders are part of God's heavenly court. They are there and were there when God established the heavens. The court sat when the world was judged in the time of Noah. 

The bride of Christ, the believers, the saints, the bondservants etc... they don't need anybody to represent them. They are the bride of Christ....they are not elders! 

The bride of Christ does not sit on 24 thrones. Jesus said that they will sit with Him on His throne.... Rev 3:21

[WilliamL]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:09 PM, AdHoc said:

You have a strange way of rendering Revelation 13:5. Here is how 49 of the best Greek and Hebrew scholars of the day render it. 

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto HIM to continue forty and two months.

But even so, this does not change to sense of verse 7. My question still stands. How can there be saints to make war with  and "overcome" (not "kill" as you rendered it) if the rapture has taken place? In any case, if the Beast "killed" them how could they flee to a wilderness in Chapter 12 and be "out of the Great Tribulation alive in Chapter 7?

RE: Rev. 13:5, the nearest antecedent to the latter HIM is mouth, not the first him. In biblical-speak, a mouth in this sense is a spokesman. God made Aaron the "mouth" for Moses. Ex. 4:14-16

RE: the Beast killing saints, I think "beheading" counts for killing. Rev. 20:4

RE: Rev. 12, this flight comes at the beginning of the Trib., before the Beast comes on the scene. And all in Rev. 7 is likewise before the Beast, which, as I pointed out already, does not arrive until the abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

On 12/16/2021 at 5:09 PM, AdHoc said:

"The people of the leader which is to come destroy the sanctuary." There is a leader who is to COME (future to the destruction). And this Leader is of the PEOPLE who WILL (future) destroy the sanctuary.

Wrong. The grammar of the Hebrew, a language with which you are evidently not familiar, requires that the leader of verse 26 is the same as the one of verse 27. The vav-consecutive that begins verse 27 shows this. As explained in the blog entries I posted.

On 12/16/2021 at 5:09 PM, AdHoc said:

I know that translation, especially from such rich languages as Hebrew and Greek, presents problems, but the conditions under which the 1611 was translated have never been matched again.

Ah, a King James Only man. Can't help you there. Scholarship did not stop in 1611. I guess then you are convinced that "Easter" is the proper translation for pascha in Acts 12:4. 

[truth7t7]

40 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

RE: Rev. 13:5, the nearest antecedent to the latter HIM is mouth, not the first him. In biblical-speak, a mouth in this sense is a spokesman. God made Aaron the "mouth" for Moses. Ex. 4:14-16

RE: the Beast killing saints, I think "beheading" counts for killing. Rev. 20:4

RE: Rev. 12, this flight comes at the beginning of the Trib., before the Beast comes on the scene. And all in Rev. 7 is likewise before the Beast, which, as I pointed out already, does not arrive until the abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

Wrong. The grammar of the Hebrew, a language with which you are evidently not familiar, requires that the leader of verse 26 is the same as the one of verse 27. The vav-consecutive that begins verse 27 shows this. As explained in the blog entries I posted.

Ah, a King James Only man. Can't help you there. Scholarship did not stop in 1611. I guess then you are convinced that "Easter" is the proper translation for pascha in Acts 12:4. 

You state (The Beast) ist seen until the 5th trump, Revelation 9:11 openly states this is satan the king of the pit?

Scripture teaches that (The Beast) seen in Revelation 13:1-5 is a human man?

Bible versions are a matter of Hebrew/Greek texts used

New versions are supported by the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) created by Adulterers (Kurt & Barbara Aland) and homosexual Union supporter, roman catholic Jesuit cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

Those mentioned above are "Corrupt Trees" and their Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) is "Corrupt Fruit"

Matthew 7:17-18AKJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

33 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You state (The Beast) ist seen until the 5th trump, Revelation 9:11 openly states this is satan the king of the pit?

Scripture teaches that (The Beast) seen in Revelation 13:1-5 is a human man?

Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 say that the Beast is to "ascend out of the Abyss." No scripture says that any man was sent to the Abyss, only fallen angels. Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4

RE: the various sources of modern Bible versions (and there are many good sources that the KJV scholars knew nothing about, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Leningrad manuscript): that still does not explain away the KJV's use of "Easter" for pascha. To cite just one of many KJV mistranslations of the Textus Receptus.

Apparently you do not know how many times the KJV has been revised since 1611 in order to correct its many errors.

[truth7t7]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 say that the Beast is to "ascend out of the Abyss." No scripture says that any man was sent to the Abyss, only fallen angels. Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4

RE: the various sources of modern Bible versions (and there are many good sources that the KJV scholars knew nothing about, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Leningrad manuscript): that still does not explain away the KJV's use of "Easter" for pascha. To cite just one of many KJV mistranslations of the Textus Receptus.

Apparently you do not know how many times the KJV has been revised since 1611 in order to correct its many errors.

New versions are supported by the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) created by Adulterers (Kurt & Barbara Aland) and homosexual Union supporter, roman catholic Jesuit cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

Those mentioned above are "Corrupt Trees" and their Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) is "Corrupt Fruit"

Matthew 7:17-18AKJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 

[truth7t7]

22 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 say that the Beast is to "ascend out of the Abyss." No scripture says that any man was sent to the Abyss, only fallen angels. Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4

RE: the various sources of modern Bible versions (and there are many good sources that the KJV scholars knew nothing about, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Leningrad manuscript): that still does not explain away the KJV's use of "Easter" for pascha. To cite just one of many KJV mistranslations of the Textus Receptus.

Apparently you do not know how many times the KJV has been revised since 1611 in order to correct its many errors.

You claimed (The Beast) is released after the 5th Trump, and my response is that the figure seen is (Satan) Abaddon/Apollyon being released as seen below

Satan and The Beast are two different beings, Satan is spiritual, The Beast is mortal human

Revelation 9:11AKJV

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 

(The Beast) of Revelation 13 below is a human man, denoted by personal pronouns he, his, him

Revelation 13:1-6KJV

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

16 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

(The Beast) of Revelation 13 below is a human man, denoted by personal pronouns he, his, him

You are showing that you do not understand Greek. αὐτός in Greek means both "he" and "it," depending upon the context. And since nothing in the context of Rev. 13 shows that the Beast is definitively a man or a fallen angel, the KJV's use of "he" is purely conjectural, a presumption.

As far as Satan being released from the Abyss as you claim, Rev. 12 shows the contrary, that he is to be cast down from heaven. 12:7-9

 

 

[truth7t7]

37 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You are showing that you do not understand Greek. αὐτός in Greek means both "he" and "it," depending upon the context. And since nothing in the context of Rev. 13 shows that the Beast is definitively a man or a fallen angel, the KJV's use of "he" is purely conjectural, a presumption.

As far as Satan being released from the Abyss as you claim, Rev. 12 shows the contrary, that he is to be cast down from heaven. 12:7-9

 

 

We strongly disagree, Satan/Apollyon is released from the bottomless pit at the 5th Trump in Revelation chapter 9

 

Strong’s Definitions

Ἀπολλύων Apollýōn, ap-ol-loo'-ohn; active participle of G622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):—Apollyon.

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KJV Translation Count — Total: 1x

The KJV translates Strong's G623 in the following manner: Apollyon (1x).

You claimed (The Beast) is released after the 5th Trump, and my response is that the figure seen is (Satan) Abaddon/Apollyon being released as seen below

Satan and The Beast are two different beings, Satan is spiritual, The Beast is mortal human

Revelation 9:11AKJV

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 

[WilliamL]

6 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Strong’s Definitions

Ἀπολλύων Apollýōn, ap-ol-loo'-ohn; active participle of G622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):—Apollyon.

Strong's definitions are not Scripture. They are just his opinion.

Apollyon/Abaddon is actually the fallen angel Azazel of Leviticus 16.

And you pointedly ignored Satan's being cast down from heaven. If God identifies Satan in Rev. 12 along with his various other names, then there is no reason that He would not also do so in Rev. 9, if he were indeed Abaddon. But He did not, because that is not the case.