Two questions for pretribulationists

[JoeCanada]

1) Pretribulation claims that believers would lose their blessed hope if they were persecuted by the Antichrist, then by that reasoning they must believe that so-called “tribulation saints” will lose their blessed hope since they will be persecuted by the Antichrist.

My question: please give me one passage where “tribulation saints” lose their blessed hope.

One passage will suffice.

 

2) The Church in Kenya..... Tragically, 9 Christians were recently murdered in Kenya for refusing to recite the Islamic Creed thereby denying their faith in Jesus.

So.... how is this any different than when the Antichrist will murder Christians when they refuse to deny their faith?

The Antichrist's great tribulation will NOT be God's wrath..... rather, it will be Satan's end-time wrath against the church and Israel, when he is kicked out of heaven.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by JoeCanada

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

1) Pretribulation claims that believers would lose their blessed hope if they were persecuted by the Antichrist, then by that reasoning they must believe that so-called “tribulation saints” will lose their blessed hope since they will be persecuted by the Antichrist.

My question: please give me one passage where “tribulation saints” lose their blessed hope.

One passage will suffice.

 

2) The Church in Kenya..... Tragically, 9 Christians were recently murdered in Kenya for refusing to recite the Islamic Creed thereby denying their faith in Jesus.

So.... how is this any different than when the Antichrist will murder Christians when they refuse to deny their faith?

The Antichrist's great tribulation will NOT be God's wrath..... rather, it will be Satan's end-time wrath against the church and Israel, when he is kicked out of heaven.

 

 

The tribulation saints are among the unbelievers who have come into the 7 year tribulation. When they have genuinely come to Christ during the 7 year tribulation they will be saved and go to heaven. All those who take the MOB and do not come to God during the 7 year tribulation will go into hell. 

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The tribulation saints are among the unbelievers who have come into the 7 year tribulation. When they have genuinely come to Christ during the 7 year tribulation they will be saved and go to heaven. All those who take the MOB and do not come to God during the 7 year tribulation will go into hell. 

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The church is 'raptured', the beast rises, 3 1/2 yrs later the two witnesses arrive,  the deadly would, Satan cast to earth, the image set up and the last 3 1/2 years end with the two witnesses killed and raised as Christ descends.

So without a preacher or teacher or evangelist or a single soul with FAITH,
the left behind have 3 1/2 years, 
ALL BY THEMSELVES without word one of help from anyone
TO PUT ON THE GOSPEL ARMOR to withstand the fiery darts of Satan
who is SO GOOD that time had to be shortened or else Gods elect would be deceived? 

That is what you believe to be GODS PLAN that ALL come to repentance?  


And it doesn't seem like a better plan to have a BODY OF BELIEVERS in Christ rising up for 2000 years (while the mystery of iniquity works for the other side) so that when all the bad angels from heaven come down to be around to give those who hadn't come to faith, a fighting chance?

Interesting

 

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

1) Pretribulation claims that believers would lose their blessed hope if they were persecuted by the Antichrist, then by that reasoning they must believe that so-called “tribulation saints” will lose their blessed hope since they will be persecuted by the Antichrist.

My question: please give me one passage where “tribulation saints” lose their blessed hope.

One passage will suffice.

 

2) The Church in Kenya..... Tragically, 9 Christians were recently murdered in Kenya for refusing to recite the Islamic Creed thereby denying their faith in Jesus.

So.... how is this any different than when the Antichrist will murder Christians when they refuse to deny their faith?

The Antichrist's great tribulation will NOT be God's wrath..... rather, it will be Satan's end-time wrath against the church and Israel, when he is kicked out of heaven.

 

 

Your posting is based on the belief that:

1. The Great Tribulation is Antichrist's wrath. Could you support that with scripture? The word "wrath" is used 13 times in Revelation, TEN are God's wrath, 1 is Satan's wrath and 2 are Mystery Babylon's wrath. Would you not agree that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath? After all, Who opens the Seals? If the Great Tribulation is God's wrath, then it would be logical that men would escape who had put their trust in Jesus, as 1st Thessalonians 5:9 promises.
2. The "Tribulation saints" need to be shown as profiting from tribulation by scripture. Revelation 13:7 pointedly and unambiguously says that the Beast makes war with the saints and OVERCOMES them. Revelation 7:9-17 shows a company of people from all nations who came through the Great Tribulation. But they had dirty garments that needed to be washed by the blood of Christ. They are certainly not exercised by it. Rather they come through with tears.

But, even if the Great Tribulation was Satan's wrath, is the salvation worked by Jesus Christ not enough to save His people? If there is a reason, maybe you can share it.

[JoeCanada]

On 12/9/2021 at 5:38 AM, AdHoc said:

Your posting is based on the belief that:

1. The Great Tribulation is Antichrist's wrath. Could you support that with scripture? The word "wrath" is used 13 times in Revelation, TEN are God's wrath, 1 is Satan's wrath and 2 are Mystery Babylon's wrath. Would you not agree that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath? After all, Who opens the Seals? If the Great Tribulation is God's wrath, then it would be logical that men would escape who had put their trust in Jesus, as 1st Thessalonians 5:9 promises.
2. The "Tribulation saints" need to be shown as profiting from tribulation by scripture. Revelation 13:7 pointedly and unambiguously says that the Beast makes war with the saints and OVERCOMES them. Revelation 7:9-17 shows a company of people from all nations who came through the Great Tribulation. But they had dirty garments that needed to be washed by the blood of Christ. They are certainly not exercised by it. Rather they come through with tears.

But, even if the Great Tribulation was Satan's wrath, is the salvation worked by Jesus Christ not enough to save His people? If there is a reason, maybe you can share it.

Hi AdHoc,

In Rev 12 (read it all).... verse 12....: Woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time"

When is this?  It is well before the 7th 6th 5th  seals.......

We learn from Rev6:17, at the breaking of the sixth seal, " Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand"

So God's wrath has not yet come, at the opening of the 6th seal............  but is at the door, so to speak.

And in Rev 6:10, at the 5th seal, the souls under the altar cry out to God..."How long will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Still no wrath from God.

There are many who say that because Jesus breaks the seals, it means that the 70th week is all of God's wrath upon the earth.

Of course it is Jesus who breaks the seals....He is the one in control...He is the one steering the events during the 70th week....He is the ONLY one worthy to break the seals .....Rev 5

But He doesn't begin to judge/avenge/pour out His wrath until after the saints are caught up to heaven, at the end of the 6th seal...at the opening of the 7th seal....at the sounding of the trumpets .

Look at Isaiah 34:8..."For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion..."

Isaiah 61.... "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed me, to bring good news to the afflicted; to proclaim liberty to the captives, and freedom to prisoners....To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn..."

Isaiah 63:3.... "I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me...I also trod them in My anger and trampled them in My wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, and I stained all My raiment. For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come..."

Isaiah tell us that the Lord has a day of vengeance and a year of recompense. What is that? It's the Day of the Lord which is the start of His year long wrath.

This is easily shown "as in the days of Noah:.... the ark was above the earth for a year, during God's Wrath of the ungodly.

In Isaiah 2:17-21, he tells us that the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that Day. He will not share His Glory with another. (Satan will have his tribulation, his time of Jacobs trouble, his persecution of God's people)... And it is clearly the Day of the Lord that Isaiah is speaking about:

Isaiah 2:17-21.........."The pride of man will be humbled
And the loftiness of men will be abased;
And the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
¹⁸ But the idols will completely vanish.
¹⁹ Men will go into caves of the rocks
And into holes of the ^[a]ground
Before the terror of the Lord
And the splendor of His majesty,
When He arises to make the earth tremble.
²⁰ In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats
Their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
Which they made for themselves to worship,
²¹ In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs
Before the terror of the Lord and the splendor of His majesty,
When He arises to make the earth tremble"

The apostle Paul in 2Thes 1 tells us that...." it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God..."

This is at the 6th seal....the resurrection and rapture!

 

[The Light]

41 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

This is at the 6th seal....the resurrection and rapture!

 

Correction.... This is at the sixth seal....A resurrection and A rapture!

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi AdHoc,

In Rev 12 (read it all).... verse 12....: Woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time"

When is this?  It is well before the 7th 6th 5th  seals.......

We learn from Rev6:17, at the breaking of the sixth seal, " Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand"

So God's wrath has not yet come, at the opening of the 6th seal............  but is at the door, so to speak.

And in Rev 6:10, at the 5th seal, the souls under the altar cry out to God..."How long will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Still no wrath from God.

There are many who say that because Jesus breaks the seals, it means that the 70th week is all of God's wrath upon the earth.

Of course it is Jesus who breaks the seals....He is the one in control...He is the one steering the events during the 70th week....He is the ONLY one worthy to break the seals .....Rev 5

But He doesn't begin to judge/avenge/pour out His wrath until after the saints are caught up to heaven, at the end of the 6th seal...at the opening of the 7th seal....at the sounding of the trumpets .

Look at Isaiah 34:8..."For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion..."

Isaiah 61.... "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed me, to bring good news to the afflicted; to proclaim liberty to the captives, and freedom to prisoners....To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn..."

Isaiah 63:3.... "I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me...I also trod them in My anger and trampled them in My wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, and I stained all My raiment. For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come..."

Isaiah tell us that the Lord has a day of vengeance and a year of recompense. What is that? It's the Day of the Lord which is the start of His year long wrath.

This is easily shown "as in the days of Noah:.... the ark was above the earth for a year, during God's Wrath of the ungodly.

In Isaiah 2:17-21, he tells us that the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that Day. He will not share His Glory with another. (Satan will have his tribulation, his time of Jacobs trouble, his persecution of God's people)... And it is clearly the Day of the Lord that Isaiah is speaking about:

Isaiah 2:17-21.........."The pride of man will be humbled
And the loftiness of men will be abased;
And the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
¹⁸ But the idols will completely vanish.
¹⁹ Men will go into caves of the rocks
And into holes of the ^[a]ground
Before the terror of the Lord
And the splendor of His majesty,
When He arises to make the earth tremble.
²⁰ In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats
Their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
Which they made for themselves to worship,
²¹ In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs
Before the terror of the Lord and the splendor of His majesty,
When He arises to make the earth tremble"

The apostle Paul in 2Thes 1 tells us that...." it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God..."

This is at the 6th seal....the resurrection and rapture!

 

OK. Call it semantics if you like. And each is free to have their opinion. But to me, the first four seals contain utter terror.

Then, wrath is an emotion, judgment is an ice-cold decision by a judge. Wrath is one thing - an emotion. VENGEANCE is another the administering of just desserts for crimes. You make them the same.

Next, the souls of the martyrs are under the earth and they are "resting". There is no wrath of Satan under the earth. It is on earth. Next, the wrath of Satan in Revelation 12 is directed at the Woman. But the warning is directed at "the earth and the sea". The Woman and her seeds are a parable. The Greek for earth is "that part that is arable" and the  "sea" is the nations. Where is the wrath on men in this Chapter? And is not the whole matter God's doing? Who gives the order for Satan to be ejected from heaven?

Finally, I wonder why you did not answer the fact that TEN of the thirteen mentions of wrath in the whole book are from God or His Christ.

The words from Isaiah 63 above, do they pertain to the 1260 days, or the final battle of Armageddon? And what means our Lord's meaning in Matthew 24, "when they see the Abomination of Desolation". Must they flee so fast that they leave jacket and blanket behind while Satan, at that moment, enjoys victory? He has his man in the Holy Place. He has his man with power over all nations. He has his seat in Jerusalem. Is it not God's wrath that prompts our Lord Jesus to warn people to flee without returning for a water bottle? Shall we takes God's Word accurately. It reads, in Matthew 24; 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel gives this event at 3½ years before the end. The Abomination of Desolation is Satan JOY, not his wrath.

Edited December 12, 2021 by AdHoc
Additional thought

[The Light]

On 12/8/2021 at 11:06 AM, JoeCanada said:

1) Pretribulation claims that believers would lose their blessed hope if they were persecuted by the Antichrist, then by that reasoning they must believe that so-called “tribulation saints” will lose their blessed hope since they will be persecuted by the Antichrist.

My question: please give me one passage where “tribulation saints” lose their blessed hope.

One passage will suffice.

 

2) The Church in Kenya..... Tragically, 9 Christians were recently murdered in Kenya for refusing to recite the Islamic Creed thereby denying their faith in Jesus.

So.... how is this any different than when the Antichrist will murder Christians when they refuse to deny their faith?

The Antichrist's great tribulation will NOT be God's wrath..... rather, it will be Satan's end-time wrath against the church and Israel, when he is kicked out of heaven.

 

 

How is this different? The Church will already be in heaven when the Antichrist is murdering Christians. The Antichrist will go after the seed of the woman who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church. 

[JoeCanada]

11 minutes ago, The Light said:

How is this different? The Church will already be in heaven when the Antichrist is murdering Christians. The Antichrist will go after the seed of the woman who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church. 

And who are "they who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"... if the all the believers have been raptured to heaven?

[JoeCanada]

37 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

OK. Call it semantics if you like. And each is free to have their opinion. But to me, the first four seals contain utter terror.

Then, wrath is an emotion, judgment is an ice-cold decision by a judge. Wrath is one thing - an emotion. VENGEANCE is another the administering of just desserts for crimes. You make them the same.

Next, the souls of the martyrs are under the earth and they are "resting". There is no wrath of Satan under the earth. It is on earth. Next, the wrath of Satan in Revelation 12 is directed at the Woman. But the warning is directed at "the earth and the sea". The Woman and her seeds are a parable. The Greek for earth is "that part that is arable" and the  "sea" is the nations. Where is the wrath on men in this Chapter? And is not the whole matter God's doing? Who gives the order for Satan to be ejected from heaven?

 

AdHoc.....Where is the wrath on men in this Chapter? And is not the whole matter God's doing? Who gives the order for Satan to be ejected from heaven?

In Rev Chapter 12:17..... "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus". This is Satan's wrath (enraged) against men.

The dragon was ENRAGED..... not joyful as you claim....(The Abomination of Desolation is Satan JOY, not his wrath.)

AdHoc....And is not the whole matter God's doing? Who gives the order for Satan to be ejected from heaven?

Of course, it is God who orchestrates these events....and all events throughout history.