Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

[The Light]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light,

Thanks for the continued dialogue.

Rev 20:12-15. When does this judgment occur? Is it not after the millennium? Is this not the Great White Throne Judgment? And does this not take place after the second resurrection?

Clearly, it is the judgment of the dead. ( those not in Christ) It is not the judgment of the living (those in Christ)

In Dan 7, he has a vision while laying on his bed, and he writes it down.

If a person reads thru chapter 7:1-14, the vision is chronological. Why would a person think that when Daniels vision got to verses 9-10, that the vision would skip ahead more than 3000 years, and then come back and continue on. 

It makes no sense. It's illogical.

God's  justice is immutable and unchanging.

Isn't it then logical that God's unchanging justice will prevail prior to the Resurrection and Rapture? Isn't it logical that the heavenly court will be seated, "the books (man's deeds) will be opened, the Book of Life (salvation) will also be opened, and a "judgment" of souls will be rendered prior to these events? (R&R)

We know from the Throne Room vision in Dan 7 that a court is seated, books are opened, and a judgment rendered during the 70th week of Daniel. Because God's justice is immutable, we know without question that the Book of Life must also be opened at that time.

Anytime souls are judged, the court is seated, and the books are opened. 

Dan 12: 1-4, pictures all the books were opened. It may be in a separate vision, but Gabriel tells us "Now  at that time...." is a continuation of the explanation of the vision that Daniel had back in Dan 7 and 8.

The 7 sealed scroll is what? It's man's inheritance:

1- deliverance for the saints....2- punishment for the wicked....- 3 a return of the dominion of the kingdoms of this world to their rightful owners; Jesus and His saints. 

The Scroll (book)begins to be opened when the heavenly court is seated in Dan 7:9-10.

Look at John's vision in Rev of the Throne Room. What is happening. The court is seated. One sitting on the throne, 24 thrones around His throne, in the center and around the throne 4 living creatures.....and then... "I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals..." Rev 5:1

 

 

Hey Joe,

I do appreciate your logic skills, however as I have already mentioned several times, the book with 7 seals is not what Daniel is talking about. He is talking about the books in Rev 20.

Truth7t7 is trying to steer you in that direction also.

You need to rethink this.

[WilliamL]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

I do appreciate your logic skills, however as I have already mentioned several times, the book with 7 seals is not what Daniel is talking about. He is talking about the books in Rev 20.

Nope. Because at the books of Rev. 20:12, time has come to an end, because "the earth and the heaven [had] fled away; and there was found no place for them." 20:11

Whereas after the books of Daniel 7 are opened, and the judgment of that time takes place upon that beast, 7: 12 tells us that

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Earth and its time ends in the case of Revelation 20:11ff.; earth and its time continue in Daniel 7:12.

The former is after the Millennium; the latter is before the Millennium.

Edited December 21, 2021 by WilliamL

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Nope. Because at the books of Rev. 20:12, time has come to an end, because "the earth and the heaven [had] fled away; and there was found no place for them." 20:11

Whereas after the books of Daniel 7 are opened, and the judgment of that time takes place upon that beast, 7: 12 tells us that

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Earth and its time ends in the case of Revelation 20:11ff.; earth and its time continue in Daniel 7:12.

The former is after the Millennium; the latter is before the Millennium.

There isnt two judgements where  the books are opened as you suggest, your claim of the other kings is looking back prior to this final judgement

(The Final Judgement)

Daniel 7:10AKJV

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 

Just as Daniel teaches below in Daniel 12:1-2

At the time of great tribulation, the book of life in Final judgement takes place, in the resurrection of all, everlasting life, everlasting contempt, a "Future" event unfulfilled

(The Final Judgement)

Daniel 12:1-2AKJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

Revelation 20:11-15 below is the same event in Final judgement, the dead are delivered up, this is the very same resurrection seen in Daniel 12:1-2 above

 (The Final Judgement)

Revelation 20:11-15AKJV

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited December 22, 2021 by truth7t7

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

(The Final Judgement)

Daniel 12:1-2AKJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

Revelation 20:11-15 below is the same event in Final judgement, the dead are delivered up, this is the very same resurrection seen in Daniel 12:1-2 above

truth7t7,

I strongly strongly disagree. 

Michael stands up before the time of trouble for Israel, before Jacob's trouble (which is the time of trouble for Israel), which is the great tribulation. 

But are you suggesting that Michael stands up for Israel after the millennium?

Rev 20:11 is the judgment of the dead. Period, full stop!

WE are not the dead. The CHURCH is not the dead. The BRIDE is not the dead. The SAINTS are not the dead. Even though we die physically, we are not considered the dead. NEVER NEVER NEVER!

The sea gave up the dead....Death and Hell gave up the dead... and they were judged, every man according to their works. 

That is not the judgment of the living, the alive in Christ. 

Go back and read and re-read Daniel 7: 1-15, and follow the chronology. Daniel is speaking of the first judgment, when all in Christ are resurrected and raptured, after the great tribulation.

[truth7t7]

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

truth7t7,

I strongly strongly disagree. 

Michael stands up before the time of trouble for Israel, before Jacob's trouble (which is the time of trouble for Israel), which is the great tribulation. 

But are you suggesting that Michael stands up for Israel after the millennium?

Rev 20:11 is the judgment of the dead. Period, full stop!

WE are not the dead. The CHURCH is not the dead. The BRIDE is not the dead. The SAINTS are not the dead. Even though we die physically, we are not considered the dead. NEVER NEVER NEVER!

The sea gave up the dead....Death and Hell gave up the dead... and they were judged, every man according to their works. 

That is not the judgment of the living, the alive in Christ. 

Go back and read and re-read Daniel 7: 1-15, and follow the chronology. Daniel is speaking of the first judgment, when all in Christ are resurrected and raptured, after the great tribulation.

Joe the scripture below represents the final judgement, "The Book Of Life" was opened

Whosoever was not found written in the book of life, it's only opened "Once"

Revelation 20:11-15AKJV

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[The Light]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Nope. Because at the books of Rev. 20:12, time has come to an end, because "the earth and the heaven [had] fled away; and there was found no place for them." 20:11

Whereas after the books of Daniel 7 are opened, and the judgment of that time takes place upon that beast, 7: 12 tells us that

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Earth and its time ends in the case of Revelation 20:11ff.; earth and its time continue in Daniel 7:12.

The former is after the Millennium; the latter is before the Millennium.

Yep. Because you are not looking at the complete picture. First, excellent observation about the timing of the opening of the books. However, Truth7t7 already quoted this verse. We see that the book is opened during the Great Tribulation, which likely occurs at the end, when Jesus comes. 

Dan 12

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This takes place in Matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the books have to be opened before each rapture, as in two, because the righteous will be raised during the raptures. The Church, and the dead in Christ will be raised before the seals are opened and then God will turn His attention to His Chosen people and keep His promise. This rapture, when every eye will see Him will occur just prior to the wrath of God, at the 6th seal. (which is what you see with the coming of Jesus in Matt 24)

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Yep. Because you are not looking at the complete picture. First, excellent observation about the timing of the opening of the books. However, Truth7t7 already quoted this verse. We see that the book is opened during the Great Tribulation, which likely occurs at the end, when Jesus comes. 

Dan 12

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This takes place in Matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the books have to be opened before each rapture, as in two, because the righteous will be raised during the raptures. The Church, and the dead in Christ will be raised before the seals are opened and then God will turn His attention to His Chosen people and keep His promise. This rapture, when every eye will see Him will occur just prior to the wrath of God, at the 6th seal. (which is what you see with the coming of Jesus in Matt 24)

There will be one future "Catching Up" or "Rapture", this takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ, on the last day at the time of resurrection (The End)

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION "RAPTURE")

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited December 22, 2021 by truth7t7

[The Light]

41 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

There will be one future "Catching Up" or "Rapture", this takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ, on the last day at the time of resurrection (The End)

 

Good Afternoon Truth7t7,

I know that you think that you are correct, but you are not. There will be two raptures.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Lord saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. That means that the Lord saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles would become the first harvest.

The fig tree has two harvests. There will be two raptures. One like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood and LIKEWISE ALSO, one will be like the days of Lot what the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

[truth7t7]

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

Good Afternoon Truth7t7,

I know that you think that you are correct, but you are not. There will be two raptures.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Lord saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. That means that the Lord saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles would become the first harvest.

The fig tree has two harvests. There will be two raptures. One like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood and LIKEWISE ALSO, one will be like the days of Lot what the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

We Disagree, Hosea 9:10 you present isnt a rapture of anybody to heaven

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 represents the "Catching Up" or "Rapture" it's on the last day, at the time of resurrection, when the glorified immortal body is received

Jesus Is The Lord

[The Light]

57 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION "RAPTURE")

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

There will be two raptures. Jacob had two brides. The first bride Leah was not his chosen. Jacob had to work 7 more years, for his chosen bride Rachel.

The first rapture, the pre 70th week rapture, is the rapture of the Church. It is shown in 1 Thes 4. It will occur at the trump of God, which is the voice of God.

The second rapture, the rapture of the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, is shown in 1 Cor 15.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It will occur at the last trump, which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets