Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

[JoeCanada]

Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

Daniel’s Vision of the Throne in Heaven in Dan. 7 is incredible.  It is broken up into three segments (v 9-10, v 13-14, and then an angelic explanation in v 26-27). Interspersed between the segments of these heavenly visions are the events that are occurring on the earth. So, we first are given a view of events on the earth, then we see heaven’s reaction, we view more events on the earth, and again we see heaven’s explanation.

What events do we see on earth:

“The four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea, and four beasts were coming up from the sea. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle….and behold, another beast resembling a bear, and they said to it ‘Arise, devour much meat’….After this I kept looking and behold, another one, like a leopard-and dominion was given to it. After this I kept looking in the night visions and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth- it devoured, crushed and trampled down, and it had 10 horns. While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn came up among them – this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts”..(Dan 7:2-8)

We see that the vision is chronological by the phrase….”After this I kept looking”

Let’s examine the first segment of Daniel’s heavenly vision and heavens response:

“I kept looking until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat; and his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head, as pure wool: his throne was a flame of fire, and his wheels burning fire. A stream of fire rushed forth before him: a thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousands of myriads, attended upon him: the judgment sat, and the books were opened. (Dan. 7:9-10 LXX,)

We see that the focus of the first part of the vision is on a heavenly court being seated and books (scrolls) being opened.  What does this show? “AFTER the little horn came up among them”, Daniel keeps looking and sees heaven’s response….”the thrones were set, the Ancient of days taking His seat on the throne, in the court room”….and it is only then that the books are opened.

What books?   Does Dan. 7 give us further information about one of the scrolls and what results follow after it is opened? It does. Only a few verses later, of the judgment of the court is made known:

“I beheld (I kept looking) in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of Man, and he came up to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to him.  And to him was given the dominion, and the honor, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed”. (Dan. 7:13-14 LXX, emphasis mine)

It is very clear that a transfer of power has occurred, and the kingdom has passed to “the Son of Man.” The passage also indicates that this is the last time that power will transfer. Jesus’s dominion will be everlasting. The Angel then replied;

“And the judgment has sat, and they shall remove his (Satan and the Antichrist’s) dominion to abolish it, and to destroy it utterly. And the kingdom, the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole of heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and his (Jesus’s) kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey him. (Dan. 7:26-27 NASB,)

The angel’s explanation makes it clear to Daniel that one focus of the heavenly judgment is on transferring the dominion from Satan and the Antichrist to Jesus and the saints. The opening of the scrolls pictured in Dan 7:10 seem to be the impetus of this transfer of power.

In order to further understand Daniel, we need to examine the Revelation account because it gives us far greater detail.

Let’s compare…..Daniel 7:  …..Rev                           

 

Thrones were set up….. Dan 7:9…

24 thrones with 24 elders….Rev 4:4

 

Ancient of Days took His seat…..Dan 7:9

A throne in heaven and one sitting on the throne….Rev 4:2

 

Hair like wool (Dan 7:9) , Body like beryl  (Dan 10:6)

Hair like wool (Rev 1:14, Body like jasper, sardius (Rev 4:3)

 

A river of fire coming before Him … Dan 7:10

Flashes of lightening from out of the throne…Rev 4:5

 

Thousands upon thousands and myriads upon myriads (Gods attendants) …Dan 7:10

The number of them were myriads upon myriads and thousands upon thousands …Rev 5:11

 

 

The book(s) were opened   ….Dan 7:10

Jesus opens the scroll with 7 seals…Rev 6:1

 

One coming with the clouds of heaven…Dan 7:13

He is coming with the clouds…Rev 1:7

 

Daniel’s vision and John’s vision of the throne room in heaven are truly one and the same. And this is important because the vision in Daniel gives us the timing of when these events occur.

Look at Dan 7:8-9, which is prior to the vision of the Throne in Heaven…..

“I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: “and behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld  ( kept looking)until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat. “……….(Dan. 7:8-9  LXX)

From this passage we learn that the Antichrist is active PRIOR to the Throne in heaven scene, where thrones are set, and the Ancient of Days sat. The Antichrist has arisen prior to the judgment taking place. After the first Throne in Heaven scene in Dan 7:9-10, the Antichrist is still active for a time. He is then destroyed along with his beast kingdom after this first scene:

“I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which that horn spoke, until the wild beast was slain and destroyed, and his body given to be burnt with fire…..” (Dan. 7:11 LXX )

This chronological order of events allows us to know that the visions of the Throne in Heaven in both Daniel and Revelation occur after the antichrist first arises and before he is judged and destroyed.

This is incredibly important because it allows us to chronologically “time stamp” the opening of the 7 seals of Revelation. The 7 sealed Scroll is opened at the end of the first segment of the Throne in Heaven scene..,.. “THE BOOKS WERE OPENED…Dan 7:10.

Here is the bottom line…..

There are many who teach that the 7 Sealed Scroll of Revelation is opened PRIOR to the rise of the Antichrist…. Some even say the scroll was opened after Jesus ascended to heaven in 33 AD.

SCRIPTURE HAS JUST PROVEN THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!

The 7 sealed scroll cannot be opened prior to the court being seated…….

And this does not happen until after the Antichrist has arisen.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

Absolutely not. You are completely barking up the wrong tree.

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

This chronological order of events allows us to know that the visions of the Throne in Heaven in both Daniel and Revelation occur after the antichrist first arises and before he is judged and destroyed.

This is incredibly important because it allows us to chronologically “time stamp” the opening of the 7 seals of Revelation. The 7 sealed Scroll is opened at the end of the first segment of the Throne in Heaven scene..,.. “THE BOOKS WERE OPENED…Dan 7:10.

Here is the bottom line…..

There are many who teach that the 7 Sealed Scroll of Revelation is opened PRIOR to the rise of the Antichrist…. Some even say the scroll was opened after Jesus ascended to heaven in 33 AD.

SCRIPTURE HAS JUST PROVEN THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!

The 7 sealed scroll cannot be opened prior to the court being seated…….

And this does not happen until after the Antichrist has arisen.

You are way off brother. The mistake is thinking that the SEVEN SEALED BOOK has anything to do with the books that are being talked about when Jesus returns in the clouds for the judgement.

The books that Daniel is talking about is not the book sealed with 7 seals in Revelation 6, which happens during the 70th week of Daniel. It is the books being discussed in Rev 20. 

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In conclusion, the 7 sealed book is opened PRIOR to the rise of the Antichrist. Your timestamp is incorrect.

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Absolutely not. You are completely barking up the wrong tree.

You are way off brother. The mistake is thinking that the SEVEN SEALED BOOK has anything to do with the books that are being talked about when Jesus returns in the clouds for the judgement.

The books that Daniel is talking about is not the book sealed with 7 seals in Revelation 6, which happens during the 70th week of Daniel. It is the books being discussed in Rev 20. 

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In conclusion, the 7 sealed book is opened PRIOR to the rise of the Antichrist. Your timestamp is incorrect.

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Absolutely not. You are completely barking up the wrong tree.

You are way off brother. The mistake is thinking that the SEVEN SEALED BOOK has anything to do with the books that are being talked about when Jesus returns in the clouds for the judgement.

The books that Daniel is talking about is not the book sealed with 7 seals in Revelation 6, which happens during the 70th week of Daniel. It is the books being discussed in Rev 20. 

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In conclusion, the 7 sealed book is opened PRIOR to the rise of the Antichrist. Your timestamp is incorrect.

Hi Light,

Perhaps a person should read the OP again, very carefully.

The scroll HAS to be opened AFTER the antichrist has arisen.  Why? Because within the scroll is the title deed to the earth. "And to Him was given the Kingdom" Dan 7:14. Satan took the kingdom from Adam and it is transferred back to Jesus and the saints. This obviously has to happen AFTER the antichrist has arisen and is finally defeated by Jesus.

 

 

[The Light]

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Hi Light,

Perhaps a person should read the OP again, very carefully.

The scroll HAS to be opened AFTER the antichrist has arisen.  Why? Because within the scroll is the title deed to the earth. "And to Him was given the Kingdom" Dan 7:14. Satan took the kingdom from Adam and it is transferred back to Jesus and the saints. This obviously has to happen AFTER the antichrist has arisen and is finally defeated by Jesus.

 

 

Joe, let me kindly say this is a bunch of HOOEY.

Again. The books that Daniel is referring to is NOT the BOOK SEALED WITH 7 SEALS. You are way, way, way off. The BOOKS that Daniel is referring is found in Rev 20.

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So your time stamp is totally and completely incorrect.

Additionally, your title deed comment has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Antichrist. Let me say frankly, that the Antichrist DOES NOT RE-APPEAR until after the seals are opened. The Antichrist is the little horn and He is the eighth king. The 7th king is the rider on the white horse who is AN Antichrist, but not THE Antichrist. The point is that when the seals are opened the 7th king appears and then later causes the world to worship the 8th king.

 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

Daniel’s Vision of the Throne in Heaven in Dan. 7 is incredible. ...

Shalom, JoeCanada.

First, did you actually mean "incredible?" "In - credible" means "not believable." Did you actually mean "awesome?" Just asking for clarity.

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Joe, let me kindly say this is a bunch of HOOEY.

Again. The books that Daniel is referring to is NOT the BOOK SEALED WITH 7 SEALS. You are way, way, way off. The BOOKS that Daniel is referring is found in Rev 20.

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So your time stamp is totally and completely incorrect.

Additionally, your title deed comment has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Antichrist. Let me say frankly, that the Antichrist DOES NOT RE-APPEAR until after the seals are opened. The Antichrist is the little horn and He is the eighth king. The 7th king is the rider on the white horse who is AN Antichrist, but not THE Antichrist. The point is that when the seals are opened the 7th king appears and then later causes the world to worship the 8th king.

 

Hi Light

It's only "HOOEY" to a person who has convinced them self that the "church" will be secretly raptured to heaven 7 years before the Lord's return.

INCREDIBLE!

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JoeCanada.

First, did you actually mean "incredible?" "In - credible" means "not believable." Did you actually mean "awesome?" Just asking for clarity.

Hi Roy...

Well, you got me. Yes indeed, "awesome" would be a better word. Or maybe one of these:

amazing · astonishing · astounding  · glorious

[The Light]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light

It's only "HOOEY" to a person who has convinced them self that the "church" will be secretly raptured to heaven 7 years before the Lord's return.

INCREDIBLE!

I guess I'm confused why you hold on to the incorrect assumption that the books that Daniel is talking about is the book sealed with 7 seals when I have clearly showed you what books will be opened when Jesus comes. And yet these FACTS are dismissed. Don't you want to know the truth?

As for the secret pretribulation rapture, I have not convinced myself that there will be a secret pretribulation rapture, the Word convinced me. 

Since you are aware that Jesus will come after there is a falling away and after the man of sin is revealed and immediately after the tribulation of those days, you should probably be mindful of this verse.

Matt 24

 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

[JoeCanada]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:36 PM, The Light said:

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So your time stamp is totally and completely incorrect.

Hi Light,

Thanks for the continued dialogue.

Rev 20:12-15. When does this judgment occur? Is it not after the millennium? Is this not the Great White Throne Judgment? And does this not take place after the second resurrection?

Clearly, it is the judgment of the dead. ( those not in Christ) It is not the judgment of the living (those in Christ)

In Dan 7, he has a vision while laying on his bed, and he writes it down.

If a person reads thru chapter 7:1-14, the vision is chronological. Why would a person think that when Daniels vision got to verses 9-10, that the vision would skip ahead more than 3000 years, and then come back and continue on. 

It makes no sense. It's illogical.

God's  justice is immutable and unchanging.

Isn't it then logical that God's unchanging justice will prevail prior to the Resurrection and Rapture? Isn't it logical that the heavenly court will be seated, "the books (man's deeds) will be opened, the Book of Life (salvation) will also be opened, and a "judgment" of souls will be rendered prior to these events? (R&R)

We know from the Throne Room vision in Dan 7 that a court is seated, books are opened, and a judgment rendered during the 70th week of Daniel. Because God's justice is immutable, we know without question that the Book of Life must also be opened at that time.

Anytime souls are judged, the court is seated, and the books are opened. 

Dan 12: 1-4, pictures all the books were opened. It may be in a separate vision, but Gabriel tells us "Now  at that time...." is a continuation of the explanation of the vision that Daniel had back in Dan 7 and 8.

The 7 sealed scroll is what? It's man's inheritance:

1- deliverance for the saints....2- punishment for the wicked....- 3 a return of the dominion of the kingdoms of this world to their rightful owners; Jesus and His saints. 

The Scroll (book)begins to be opened when the heavenly court is seated in Dan 7:9-10.

Look at John's vision in Rev of the Throne Room. What is happening. The court is seated. One sitting on the throne, 24 thrones around His throne, in the center and around the throne 4 living creatures.....and then... "I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals..." Rev 5:1

 

 

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Rev 20:12-15. When does this judgment occur? Is it not after the millennium? Is this not the Great White Throne Judgment? And does this not take place after the second resurrection?

Clearly, it is the judgment of the dead. ( those not in Christ) It is not the judgment of the living (those in Christ)

In Dan 7, he has a vision while laying on his bed, and he writes it down.

If a person reads thru chapter 7:1-14, the vision is chronological. Why would a person think that when Daniels vision got to verses 9-10, that the vision would skip ahead more than 3000 years, and then come back and continue on. 

It makes no sense. It's illogical.

God's  justice is immutable and unchanging.

Isn't it then logical that God's unchanging justice will prevail prior to the Resurrection and Rapture? Isn't it logical that the heavenly court will be seated, "the books (man's deeds) will be opened, the Book of Life (salvation) will also be opened, and a "judgment" of souls will be rendered prior to these events? (R&R)

We know from the Throne Room vision in Dan 7 that a court is seated, books are opened, and a judgment rendered during the 70th week of Daniel. Because God's justice is immutable, we know without question that the Book of Life must also be opened at that time.

Anytime souls are judged, the court is seated, and the books are opened. 

Dan 12: 1-4, pictures all the books were opened. It may be in a separate vision, but Gabriel tells us "Now  at that time...." is a continuation of the explanation of the vision that Daniel had back in Dan 7 and 8.

The 7 sealed scroll is what? It's man's inheritance:

1- deliverance for the saints....2- punishment for the wicked....- 3 a return of the dominion of the kingdoms of this world to their rightful owners; Jesus and His saints. 

The Scroll (book)begins to be opened when the heavenly court is seated in Dan 7:9-10.

Look at John's vision in Rev of the Throne Room. What is happening. The court is seated. One sitting on the throne, 24 thrones around His throne, in the center and around the throne 4 living creatures.....and then... "I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals..." Rev 5:1

 

 

Joe Revelation 20:11-15 below is the great white throne judgement, you will closely note in verse 15 (The Book Of Life) has been opened, showing all are judged, and it's only opened once at the final judgement (The End)

Yes Daniel 7:9-11 is the very same books and judgement as seen below 

Daniel 7:10AKJV

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 

Revelation 20:11-15AKJV

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited December 20, 2021 by truth7t7