A Prewrath Rapture question

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

These are different depictions of him coming describing different attributes of what he is doing, but it is still the same coming. It is similar to the 4 accounts of the gospel...they are saying the same thing from different vantage points but still only one gospel. Like seeing a bus hit a motorcycle at an intersection. One eyewitness saw the bus failing to stop at the light, but didn't see the motorcycle, while another eyewitness saw the motorcycle skidding and hitting the side of the bus. Its not two different wrecks...one eyewitness was on one corner and another eyewitness on another corner saw something else. 

So the one in Matthew is showing him gathering the saints from heaven and the earth, which is none other than the resurrection / rapture shown in 1 Thess. 4:16 where it says the dead in Christ shall rise first, while the same event is described by Paul saying we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed..in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...at the last trump.

While John in Revelation is describing the same event when he says 'and the seventh angel sounded and it was the time of the dead that they should be judged and that God would reward his saints and all the prophets small and great, and the kingdoms of the his world became the kingdoms of our Lord.

These are all the same events being described from different angles as God revealed it to different people...so there is not one coming in 1 Thess. 4 that is different from the coming shown in Matthew 24 because one didn't say one thing and the other left something out.

So the coming described in Matthew 24 is showing that he gathers his elect from the four winds of heaven and the earth, which is the same event being described in 2 Thess. 2 as 'the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him.' Paul is not talking about a different coming because nothing was said about a great sound of a trumpet. 

Hi tm,

Everything that you said above, which I took from your response, is true. 

I didn't take all of what you wrote..... as you can see above. 

You are trying to meld together different passages to make them fit. The above, from Matt 24, 1 Thes, 2 Thes.... I agree that they all describe the Resurrection/Rapture happening, and it is the same event.

But Revelation is not in chronological order. 

Rev 17:1 to 19:10 is a Parenthesis, it's God’s Judgment on Babylon the religious and economic entity. If you read it, you will see that it is. Revelation 19:11 picks up again the chronological flow with ...... "And I saw heaven opened" 

Matt 24, 1 Thes, 2 Thes are in no way linked to Rev 19. There is just nothing there to connect them. If Rev 19 is the same event as Matt and Thes, then there should be something showing a resurrection/rapture, but it doesn't. 

Your analogy of a bus/motorcycle crash and using it to compare Matt 24 and Rev 19 is flawed. It's actually like a bus/motorcycle accident, Matt 24.... and a tractor trailer plowing into a crowded dept store, Rev 19.

[transmogrified]

13 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Matt 24, 1 Thes, 2 Thes are in no way linked to Rev 19. There is just nothing there to connect them. If Rev 19 is the same event as Matt and Thes, then there should be something showing a resurrection/rapture, but it doesn't. 

He comes with his armies from heaven in Rev. 19...these are the saints and the angels coming just like when he comes in Matthew 24 in the glory of his father with all his holy angels...it doesn't specifically say the word 'resurrection or rapture,' but where did the saints come from that were with him if they weren't resurrected first?

1 Thess. 3:13 says Jesus is coming with all his saints...do we dismiss this has nothing to do with the resurrection / rapture because it doesn't say they were resurrected or raptured saints. No 

Is it a different coming when Jesus said to Caiphas when he told him he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven because there is no mention of any saints coming with him? No. 

Is another coming when John said 'He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him even those that pierced him, because there is no mention of a trumpet or the word resurrection or rapture is not there? No.

Is 1 Cor. 1:7 where he says 'waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ another coming because there is no mention of clouds, end of the age, a trumpet sounding or a resurrection? No.

Is James 5:8 where it says 'be patient brethren unto the coming of the Lord, ' yet another coming because it doesn't mention any clouds and no trumpet is sounding? 

Is 1 John 2:28 yet another coming when it says that we be not ashamed before him at his coming, because there are no saints mentioned, the word gathered in not used and it doesn't say this one is at the 7th trumpet?

Of course these are all not different comings...we would probably have dozens of Second Comings if we were to dissect all the scriptures this way.

I realize the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order...when the seventh trumpet sounds it says it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he gives out the rewards to all his saints, so even though this is mentioned in about the middle of the book of Revelation we know this is something that happens at the end of this age. 

The Book of Revelation in some contexts is like taking snapshots of your trip to Yellowstone...you might look at one snapshot and your at Old Faithful, then another snapshot and your looking at some bears...you have to connect what the event is in order to place it in the right time frame. 

He comes with the clouds in Rev. 1:8 which is at the beginning of the Book, yet it is the Second Coming that takes place at the end.

It mentions the Second Coming in the middle of the book, yet he doesn't come until the the end of the age.

It mentions him coming at the end of the Book, but all these are pointing to the same coming only giving different details in each setting.

[transmogrified]

These two scriptures might connect Rev. 19 to be the same coming as in Matthew 24. So when we look Jude 14 we see The Lord coming with 10,000's of his saints and they are coming to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly of all their ungodly deeds....'

This is the same even being shown in Rev. where the saints are coming back with Jesus to Armageddon to execute judgment upon them...these are part of the armies that were in heaven that followed Jesus upon the white horse...the glorified saints are returning with the angels of heaven to Armageddon, but where did he get these saints?

Matthew 24 says he got them by gathering them from the four winds of heaven and the earth...this gathering is the resurrection / rapture of the saints...the same gathering Paul was talking about when he said 'we beseech you by the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him..' This gathering together unto him is the same event in Matthew 24, and Rev. 19 is showing these gathered saints returning with Jesus...but it is not a different coming...

 

[transmogrified]

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You are trying to meld together different passages to make them fit. The above, from Matt 24, 1 Thes, 2 Thes.... I agree that they all describe the Resurrection/Rapture happening, and it is the same event.

But Revelation is not in chronological order. 

Hi Joe...I am sorry, I misunderstood this part of what you were saying so me bringing out those other scriptures was overkill, as I see your comparison was just between Rev. 19 and the other scriptures concerning his coming.

I think Jude 14 solidifies the issue when it includes the saints coming with him to execute judgment upon all which would be Armageddon. Maybe you were thinking the armies in heaven were just the angels, but if that was true we would then have one coming in Jude 14 with just the saints to Armageddon, and then another coming in Rev. 19 with just the angels to Armageddon, which of course of course would both instances meaningless.

In other words if he came and destroyed the armies at Armageddon with just the angels, then he wouldn't have to come again with just the saints to do the same thing, or vice versa. But if you take it as the same coming with Rev. 19 showing the 'armies of heaven' to be the angels and the one in Jude saying he would be returning with the saints then you have the full picture of him coming with all his saints and his mighty angels. 

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

Hi again Joe...There is one other scripture that I didn't mention about the saints executing vengeance and judgement in Psalms 149:5

"Let the saints be joyful in glory; let the sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth and a two edged sword in their hand, To execute vengeance upon the heathen and punishments upon the people, To bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron To execute upon them the judgment written; this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord."

Bless you- Gary

[truth7t7]

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi tm,

Everything that you said above, which I took from your response, is true. 

I didn't take all of what you wrote..... as you can see above. 

You are trying to meld together different passages to make them fit. The above, from Matt 24, 1 Thes, 2 Thes.... I agree that they all describe the Resurrection/Rapture happening, and it is the same event.

But Revelation is not in chronological order. 

Rev 17:1 to 19:10 is a Parenthesis, it's God’s Judgment on Babylon the religious and economic entity. If you read it, you will see that it is. Revelation 19:11 picks up again the chronological flow with ...... "And I saw heaven opened" 

Matt 24, 1 Thes, 2 Thes are in no way linked to Rev 19. There is just nothing there to connect them. If Rev 19 is the same event as Matt and Thes, then there should be something showing a resurrection/rapture, but it doesn't. 

Your analogy of a bus/motorcycle crash and using it to compare Matt 24 and Rev 19 is flawed. It's actually like a bus/motorcycle accident, Matt 24.... and a tractor trailer plowing into a crowded dept store, Rev 19.

Revelation 19 is very much the same second coming of Jesus Christ as seen on Matthew 24 & 1 & 2 Thess

Just because one instance dosent mention the resurrection, his dosent remove the fact the one and olny second coming is seen

[truth7t7]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:30 AM, Da Puppers said:

Jesus's coming,  that includes both the rapture and Armageddon,  is more closely aligned with the "Post-Trib " view,  rather than a Pre-wrath viewpoint.   Pre-wrath,  though a form of Post-Trib,  maintains a longer period of time between the rapture and Armageddon.   

 

I think that most do.   But I don't.   My view is that Matt 24 does not include the coming,  as per Rev 19.  According to Jeremiah 30, [the time like no other,  aka Jacob's trouble,]  is conjunctively the same time as the gathering of the elect,  ala Matt 24:31.  I.e., the gathering of the elect,  is not the same as his coming. This makes the coming of Jesus in Matt 24:30 disjointedly different from the coming of Jesus in Rev 19.  The writer of Hebrews 9:28 identifies the time in which salvation [of the body] is given [to those looking for him] as the "second appearing" of Jesus.   I see no problem to call the 2nd appearing the same as the 2nd coming of Jesus.   This causes a dyslexia when one [also] refers to Armageddon as Jesus's "2nd coming.  But let me be clear in reiterating that when Jesus comes,  and the corruptible dead are resurrected,  THAT is the 2nd coming, whether it's a Pre-trib or Pre-wrath event. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I strongly disagree, there is only one future second coming if Jesus Christ, and this very same second coming is seen in Matthew 24 & Revelation 19

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Matthew 24 says he got them by gathering them from the four winds of heaven and the earth...this gathering is the resurrection / rapture of the saints...the same gathering Paul was talking about when he said 'we beseech you by the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him..' This gathering together unto him is the same event in Matthew 24, and Rev. 19 is showing these gathered saints returning with Jesus...but it is not a different coming...

Hi Gary,

I'm not really understanding this. 

If Jesus' coming is only at Rev 19, and you say He is coming with His Bride (the armies of heaven) to execute judgment on the ungodly..... then when and how did the Bride get to heaven in order to come back with Jesus?

I've always pictured angels as warriors first, then as messengers, or maybe perhaps warrior/messengers. I'm not sure if I see the Bride of Christ as wielding swords and riding on horses to battle antichrist and his armies. We're talking about old, feeble ladies and little children and babies..... it's difficult to picture these battling seasoned earthly commandos and navy seals.  I think this is a job for angelic warriors who probably are training right now for this battle....:)

(I'm still trying to work out Rev 21 and part of 22, if it's after Armageddon.... or if it's a 1000 years after Armageddon. This is a topic all on it's own, but it does tie in to what we are talking about. Maybe we can roll this one around)

[transmogrified]

Quote from Da Puppers:

Quote

Jesus's coming,  that includes both the rapture and Armageddon,  is more closely aligned with the "Post-Trib " view,  rather than a Pre-wrath viewpoint.   Pre-wrath,  though a form of Post-Trib,  maintains a longer period of time between the rapture and Armageddon.

Hello Da Puppers- The issue of a delay between the rapture and Armageddon would also be called an delay between the rapture and the Second Coming. Both Rev. 19 states Jesus returns with the armies of heaven to Armageddon, and Jude 14 state Jesus comes with his saints to execute judgment on everyone. The only way to reconcile both of these 2 scriptures is that Jesus comes with all his saints and all the angels, or else you end up with 2 different comings of Jesus to fight at Armageddon which would then be self contradictory.

So we can look to Paul in 2 Thess. 2 and see that both the coming of the Lord and the gathering (resurrection / rapture) happen on the same day, so lets look at the text:

 Now we beseech you brethren, by the 

1) Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Coming) 

2) Our gathering together unto him... (resurrection / rapture)

....and then he goes to describe some things about not being shaken and then he goes to verse 3:

3) "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first..."

So in context  verse one he is talking about both the coming of the Lord, and also of the rapture / resurrection and then he pegs it down saying that that day shall not come unless something happens...but realize the events that are to occur on that day. He said 'that day' (in which both the Second Coming and the resurrection / rapture takes place) will not come except certain things happen.

The thing to understand is that he is saying the rapture / resurrection and the Second Coming happen on one single day, the very day he is saying that will not come except certain things happen first. 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

If Jesus' coming is only at Rev 19, and you say He is coming with His Bride (the armies of heaven) to execute judgment on the ungodly..... then when and how did the Bride get to heaven in order to come back with Jesus?

The Bride is the same as saying 'the dead in Christ' or 'all those who the Father has given to me,' or 'all the saints.' But at the resurrection in 1 Thess. 4 it says The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first..."

So when he says they rise first does he mean rise from the dead or rise up in the air? And when he says they shall rise first, we have to ask ourselves 'first before what?'

The lines sometimes may get blurred, but the resurrection is not the same as being caught up into the air. Jesus was resurrected from the dead but did not ascend up into the clouds until some 40 days later.

It is also apparent those that are alive and remain when Jesus comes will not be resurrected because they are not dead. Paul comprehensively said he was showing us a mystery, that we shall not all sleep, or die, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

So the element of being changed from mortality to immortality, or the receiving of our glorified bodies happens to both the dead and the living saints at the same time as he said, at the last trump.

The dead in Christ must be resurrected, which means they put on their glorified bodies at the same time of the living, so there is no 'first' part in that scenario. The 'first' part means they ascend up into the air before the living saints are caught up, but where do the resurrected saints go?

They go up to heaven and it is these people who are mentioned in Rev. 19:1  that John '...heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying Alleluia; salvation, and glory, and honor and power unto the Lord our God; for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever....then on to verse 6 "...and I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying Alleluia ; for the Lord God Omnipotent reigns ...then it goes on to say what?

"For the marriage of the Lamb is come..." Here the dead in Christ have all been resurrected and are now all  in heaven about ready to descend down to the earth to have the marriage supper...and then right after this in Rev. 19 we see Jesus returning to the earth with the armies which were in heaven..."

This is how the resurrected saints got up to heaven and then when they descend on down to the earth, or as Paul says, 'Them that sleep God will bring with him...' Paul says 'we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (Jesus and the resurrected saints) to meet them in the air, and then  we all descend down to the earth as it says in Zech. 14:5 and 1 Thess. 1:13 that the Lord God will return with all his saints....Which means all the dead saints who were resurrected plus all the living that were raptured  descend down to the earth with Jesus.