Revelation 10

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You believe in "Soul Sleep"?

Shalom, truth7t7.

I don't call it that, because of how most Christians define the term "soul," but essentially the "air-breather" stops breathing. That means that the "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breathing creature") ceases to be a "soul."

The body THAT USED TO BE AIR-BREATHING lies in the grave, and Yeshua` said, as in the case of Lazarus, that this is "being asleep."

For the individual who dies, it will be as though no time has passed at all. He or she closes his or her eyes in death and opens them in the Resurrection.

There's no such thing as an "immaterial part" of an individual. That's why the medical field and scientists can't locate what the "soul" is. They're not wrong, but they're looking for the wrong thing! This is simply because they've been given a faulty definition of "soul." This faulty definition of "soul" is VERY common! It has been accepted by the religious communities world wide.

The "spirit" simply is the person's "wind"; that is, his or her "breath." When one has "breathed his last" or "breathed her last," he or she "expires" (which means "breathes out"), and he or she dies.

When one is resurrected, the WIND (Hebrew: ruwach) resuscitates the re-created body, and one becomes a "soul" once again. Now, with this information, re-read Genesis 2:7 and then read Ezekiel 37.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man (Hebrew: ha'aadaam =" the-red-[man]") of the dust of the ground (Hebrew: `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah = "of-dust from-the-red-[ground]"), and breathed (Hebrew: vayyipach = "and-puffed") into his nostrils the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat chayyiym = "a-puff of-living-things"); and man became a living soul (Hebrew: vayhiy ha'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah = "and-made the-red-[man] into-an-air-breathing-creature living").

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest." 

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds (Hebrew: mee'arba` ruwchowt bo'iy = "from-the-four winds come"), O breath (Hebrew: haruwach = "the-wind/breath"), and breathe (uwfchiy = "and-puff") upon these slain (Hebrew: baharuwgiym = "in-the-killed-ones"), that they may live (Hebrew: vyichyuw = "and-they-will-live")."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

 

THIS is how the Resurrection will occur! God will first put the bodies back together, and then He will call for the Ruwach (the "Spirit" or the "Wind") and puff life into them once again. Only THIS time, in the Resurrection of the Justified, He will also TRANSFORM US into air-BLASTING bodies that are immortal and incorruptible. And, the best part is that we will not have to do a thing! It's ALL of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`!

[transmogrified]

1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

THIS is how the Resurrection will occur! God will first put the bodies back together, and then He will call for the Ruwach (the "Spirit" or the "Wind") and puff life into them once again. Only THIS time, in the Resurrection of the Justified, He will also TRANSFORM US into air-BLASTING bodies that are immortal and incorruptible. And, the best part is that we will not have to do a thing! It's ALL of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`!

This is shown in a nutshell in Rev. 11:11-12 when the two prophets were killed and their dead bodies laid in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days...so their bodies had already began to decompose but it says '...the spirit of Life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet...'

This is the moment their mortality put on immortality and they were changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...this is also shown to occur at the 7th Trumpet...for it says they heard a great voice from heaven saying 'Come up Hither...' 

These two prophets were part of the dead in Christ who were all resurrected at this time, although this specific scripture is only focusing on these two prophets...but notice the sequence of events:

1) They were dead

2) The spirit of life from God entered in to them...(spirit returning to their bodies)

3) They stood upon their feet.. (resurrected...now in glorified bodies...)

4) Heard a great voice from heaven saying 'Come up hither..' ( The Lord descends from heaven with a shout...which means an order, command, specifically, a stimulating cry, with the voice of the Archangel) 

5) They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...(The dead in Christ rising first)

6) At this same time the 7th Trumpet sounds...(at this time there was a great earthquake and the 7th Trumpet sounds...Rev.. 11:15) 

They were physically seen rising up into the clouds to heaven...so this is just a snapshot of what will happen to all the dead in Christ...the Spirit of God will enter into them, they will be resurrected and glorified, then ascend up to heaven in visible glorified bodies...

The dead in Christ are resurrected and rise first up into the clouds...then the Lord will descend down from heaven with all the dead in Christ and all the holy angels, and those of us who will be alive and remain will be caught up to meet them in the air and continue this descent down to the earth...thus fulfilling Zech. 14 when his foot touches on the Mt. of Olives and all his saints are with him to fight the battle at Armageddon and set up his kingdom on this earth...

Glory to the King of Kings who reigns forever and ever!!!

 

[Retrobyter]

11 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

This is shown in a nutshell in Rev. 11:11-12 when the two prophets were killed and their dead bodies laid in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days...so their bodies had already began to decompose but it says '...the spirit of Life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet...'

This is the moment their mortality put on immortality and they were changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...this is also shown to occur at the 7th Trumpet...for it says they heard a great voice from heaven saying 'Come up Hither...' 

These two prophets were part of the dead in Christ who were all resurrected at this time, although this specific scripture is only focusing on these two prophets...but notice the sequence of events:

1) They were dead

2) The spirit of life from God entered in to them...(spirit returning to their bodies)

3) They stood upon their feet.. (resurrected...now in glorified bodies...)

4) Heard a great voice from heaven saying 'Come up hither..' ( The Lord descends from heaven with a shout...which means an order, command, specifically, a stimulating cry, with the voice of the Archangel) 

5) They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...(The dead in Christ rising first)

6) At this same time the 7th Trumpet sounds...(at this time there was a great earthquake and the 7th Trumpet sounds...Rev.. 11:15) 

They were physically seen rising up into the clouds to heaven...so this is just a snapshot of what will happen to all the dead in Christ...the Spirit of God will enter into them, they will be resurrected and glorified, then ascend up to heaven in visible glorified bodies...

The dead in Christ are resurrected and rise first up into the clouds...then the Lord will descend down from heaven with all the dead in Christ and all the holy angels, and those of us who will be alive and remain will be caught up to meet them in the air and continue this descent down to the earth...thus fulfilling Zech. 14 when his foot touches on the Mt. of Olives and all his saints are with him to fight the battle at Armageddon and set up his kingdom on this earth...

Glory to the King of Kings who reigns forever and ever!!!

Shalom, transmogrified.

Well said, brother! Only two things I think you should incorporate into your scenario:

First, there is no "Heaven," as most Christians (and non-Christians) define the term. The words translated as "heaven" are "shaamaayim" in the Tanakh (the OT) and "ouranos" or its plural "ouranoi" in the B'riyt haChadashah (the NT). All of these words refer to the sky where the birds fly (Revelation 19:17) and where the clouds form and the weather is seen (Matthew 16:1-4).

We meet the Lord Yeshua` IN the air, and we travel THROUGH the sky, but we land again upon this earth. He will be zealous for Israel in His coming, and He won't take time for normal travel. Instead, He sends out His messengers around the earth and gathers His own from the highest reach of the sky to the lowest point of the ground.

Many of us will have to be re-trained before we can be of any assistance on the battle fields, but we are told that HE won't wait on us!

Second, we're told that He won't first be setting foot on the Mount of Olives. He has other tasks to perform first. He has a beef with the area of Moav ("Moab") in a town called Botsrah ("Bozrah"). That's where He starts His avenging, because it is there that He will dip His clothes in their blood!

Isaiah 34:1-10 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling figfrom the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven (in the sky): behold, it shall come down upon Idumea (the same as "Edom"), and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

He BREAKS Edom and tar comes up from the ground and catches fire! Then, one can also read,

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment! 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth!"

And, in Zechariah, we must read chapter 12 before we come to chapter 14:

Zechariah 12:1-9 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel," saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (Hebrew means "shall herniate themselves"), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem!

Then, we read in chapter 14,

Zechariah 14:1-9 (KJV)

1 "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 

3 "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

6 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

 

The timing of these various Scripture passages must fit together a particular way. So, since the LORD saves the cities of Yhudah ("Judah") first before He fights for Yerushalayim ("Jerusalem"), His feet standing upon the Mount of Olives, can't be His first act. Although it makes a great mind picture for Him to land with His white horse upon the Mount of Olives, it's just not true.

Since He later arrives with His clothes already dipped in blood, He must first have had it out with Botsrah, which is just south of the land of Yhudah, in the Negev Desert. Just one of the reasons for attacking Botsrah in Edom was that one of the inhabitants of Idumea who came to the land of Yhudah and became their king just before Yeshua` was born was Herod the Great, who tried to KILL God's Son!

[truth7t7]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

That's just funny .

 

There is no mention of hell in Revelation 10. I don't answer off-topic questions. The reason I don't answer off-topic irrelevant questions is because they are off-topic and irrelevant, not because I don't know the answers. 

Its my opinion you dont answer off topic questions because you dont want the forum to know your true beliefs

1.) Do you believe (The Beast) of Revelation 13 is a future literal human man, please explain?

2.) Do you believe Jesus will return in the heavens and all eyes will see him? 

Two simple questions, let the forum openly see your belief, waiting?

Edited January 24, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

I don't call it that, because of how most Christians define the term "soul," but essentially the "air-breather" stops breathing. That means that the "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breathing creature") ceases to be a "soul."

The body THAT USED TO BE AIR-BREATHING lies in the grave, and Yeshua` said, as in the case of Lazarus, that this is "being asleep."

For the individual who dies, it will be as though no time has passed at all. He or she closes his or her eyes in death and opens them in the Resurrection.

There's no such thing as an "immaterial part" of an individual. That's why the medical field and scientists can't locate what the "soul" is. They're not wrong, but they're looking for the wrong thing! This is simply because they've been given a faulty definition of "soul." This faulty definition of "soul" is VERY common! It has been accepted by the religious communities world wide.

The "spirit" simply is the person's "wind"; that is, his or her "breath." When one has "breathed his last" or "breathed her last," he or she "expires" (which means "breathes out"), and he or she dies.

When one is resurrected, the WIND (Hebrew: ruwach) resuscitates the re-created body, and one becomes a "soul" once again. Now, with this information, re-read Genesis 2:7 and then read Ezekiel 37.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man (Hebrew: ha'aadaam =" the-red-[man]") of the dust of the ground (Hebrew: `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah = "of-dust from-the-red-[ground]"), and breathed (Hebrew: vayyipach = "and-puffed") into his nostrils the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat chayyiym = "a-puff of-living-things"); and man became a living soul (Hebrew: vayhiy ha'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah = "and-made the-red-[man] into-an-air-breathing-creature living").

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest." 

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds (Hebrew: mee'arba` ruwchowt bo'iy = "from-the-four winds come"), O breath (Hebrew: haruwach = "the-wind/breath"), and breathe (uwfchiy = "and-puff") upon these slain (Hebrew: baharuwgiym = "in-the-killed-ones"), that they may live (Hebrew: vyichyuw = "and-they-will-live")."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

 

THIS is how the Resurrection will occur! God will first put the bodies back together, and then He will call for the Ruwach (the "Spirit" or the "Wind") and puff life into them once again. Only THIS time, in the Resurrection of the Justified, He will also TRANSFORM US into air-BLASTING bodies that are immortal and incorruptible. And, the best part is that we will not have to do a thing! It's ALL of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`!

Thanks for your detailed response, I fully understand your belief

Are you 7th Day Adventist?

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Thanks for your detailed response, I fully understand your belief

Are you 7th Day Adventist?

Shalom, truth7t7.

No, although I can talk with them more freely than I can with most other Christians. I'd like to think of myself as a missionary to the 7th Day Adventists (and Jehovah's Witnesses).

See, they, like Israel and the Jews before them, try to keep the Law as a way to appease God and "earn their salvation." (Although, they would deny that terminology.) They, like so many others in "Christendom," need to understand that one's justification by God, one's "Salvation," comes SOLELY through the finished work of God's Son on the cross. They can add NOTHING to what He has accomplished, and God will accept NOTHING they have achieved on their own, called "good works."

One ONLY comes to God humbly asking, "God be merciful to me a sinner." Then, HE can step in on our behalf and justify us in a way we NEVER could! 2 Corinthians 5:21 says it all:

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who (Christ) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (Christ).

Other versions try to say this verse better, but I've not seen it accomplished; the King James Version, so far, says it best!

Christ became our "sin," so we can become His "righteousness." THAT'S the exchange!

And, God accomplishes this, as Yeshua` ("Jesus") Himself said,

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

 

P.S. - I should also add that Yeshua` gave this parable BEFORE He went to the cross! That means that OT saints are justified by God just as we are, even though they, through the animal sacrifices, looked FORWARD to the Sacrifice of God in Yeshua`s crucifixion, and we look BACKWARD to the Sacrifice of God. ALL are justified by God as we trust Him for His intervention!

Edited January 24, 2022 by Retrobyter
to close a quote and add a thought.

[truth7t7]

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

No, although I can talk with them more freely than I can with most other Christians. I'd like to think of myself as a missionary to the 7th Day Adventists (and Jehovah's Witnesses).

See, they, like Israel and the Jews before them, try to keep the Law as a way to appease God and "earn their salvation." (Although, they would deny that terminology.) They, like so many others in "Christendom," need to understand that one's justification by God, one's "Salvation," comes SOLELY through the finished work of God's Son on the cross. They can add NOTHING to what He has accomplished, and God will accept NOTHING they have achieved on their own, called "good works."

One ONLY comes to God humbly asking, "God be merciful to me a sinner." Then, HE can step in on our behalf and justify us in a way we NEVER could! 2 Corinthians 5:21 says it all:

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who (Christ) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (Christ).

Other versions try to say this verse better, but I've not seen it accomplished; the King James Version, so far, says it best!

Christ became our "sin," so we can become His "righteousness." THAT'S the exchange!

And, God accomplishes this, as Yeshua` ("Jesus") Himself said,

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Thanks for the response, Interesting, your belief is specific to 7th day Adventist and "Soul Sleep"

Of course I disagree, as I believe torment begins for the wicked immediately upon death in "Hell" as seen in the rich man and Lazarus

Im full aware of your belief, no need for a lengthy debate, we disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited January 24, 2022 by truth7t7

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Thanks for the response, Interesting, your belief is specific to 7th day Adventist and "Soul Sleep"

Of course I disagree, as I believe torment begins for the wicked immediately upon death in "Hell" as seen in the rich man and Lazarus

Im full aware of your belief, no need for a lengthy debate, we disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

Shalom, truth7t7.

That's fine. Most Christians don't believe the way I do. It shouldn't change anything, except how we arrive at the same conclusions; however, one thing you should consider about Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus:

The rich man is said to have eyes, a tongue, and the feeling of pain. These all suggest he is already resurrected in this scenario. Lazarus is said to have a finger that can be dipped in water to cool the rich man's tongue. Furthermore, the rich man converses with Avraham, which means he can talk and he can hear. He also has his memories of his brothers. All three, the rich man, Lazarus, and Avraham, don't just HAVE their bodies; they ARE their bodies! This is not some scene of disembodied spirits or souls; they are fully complete persons!

[truth7t7]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

That's fine. Most Christians don't believe the way I do. It shouldn't change anything, except how we arrive at the same conclusions; however, one thing you should consider about Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus:

The rich man is said to have eyes, a tongue, and the feeling of pain. These all suggest he is already resurrected in this scenario. Lazarus is said to have a finger that can be dipped in water to cool the rich man's tongue. Furthermore, the rich man converses with Avraham, which means he can talk and he can hear. He also has his memories of his brothers. All three, the rich man, Lazarus, and Avraham, don't just HAVE their bodies; they ARE their bodies! This is not some scene of disembodied spirits or souls; they are fully complete persons!

The rich man died and was in "Hell", as death and "Hell" will be cast into the lake of fire the second death at the final judgement

Your thought wants to put the rich man in torment after the last day resurrection and final judgement, I disagree

Edited January 24, 2022 by truth7t7

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

The rich man died and was in "Hell", as death and "Hell" will be cast into the lake of fire the second death

Your thought wants to put the rich man in torment after the last day resurrection I disagree

Shalom,  truth7t7.

I thought we weren't going to have a lengthy discussion? LOL.

I DO think this is after the last-day resurrection. The word translated "hell," in Luke 16:23, is "hadees," spelled alpha (with rough breathing)-delta-eta-sigma, and pronounced "hah-DACE." The word means the "unseen." Don't be misled by the Greek mythology that uses this word for the "Underworld" ruled by the Greek god Hades! I am quite confident that is NOT what Yeshua` meant! He was using the word as we would use the word, the "unknown." I believe that is a true account and a PROPHECY, not a "parable." He never said it was a "parable."