You cannot claim Holy Spirit unless Holy Spirit claimed you

[R. Hartono]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:54 AM, missmuffet said:

Yes, a person has the Holy Spirit as soon as they are a genuine believer. Baptism has nothing to do with it. 

Matt 3:11... He Will baptize you with Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus needs to fulfill the above prophecy, why compromise with this verse.

@appy

Edited January 29, 2022 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

On 1/14/2022 at 8:42 AM, appy said:

There is a difference between merely believing God exists and receiving Jesus into our hearts. We receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. All who believe in Jesus Christ instantaneously receive the Holy Spirit. The bible says that a person can not be a believer in Jesus Christ without the Holy Spirit in their life.

John 6 : 28, 29
Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

There is no command in Scripture to seek for the Holy Spirit, or to pray so he can be received. If the Holy Spirit were given apart from salvation, we would expect the bible to give the requirements of his reception.

Cornelius and his entire household was not at Pentecost, but upon hearing the gospel preached in his home, the Holy Spirit was given to him and all who were present in his home.

What makes your church different with cornelius? 

Edited January 29, 2022 by R. Hartono

[appy]

On 1/13/2022 at 4:09 PM, R. Hartono said:

Believe in Jesus doesnt mean you can claim to have already received Holy Spirit.

As fulfillment of the above prophecy by John the Baptist

Lets start with  your opening post.

The above could not happen till after Jesus' ascension. The Holy Spirit is also called our Advocate. After Jesus went back up to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit to be with us.

John 16 : 7, 8
7   But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8  And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:…

On 1/13/2022 at 4:09 PM, R. Hartono said:

Holy Spirit did not baptize the Theologian priests and scholar pharisees who knew verses well and claimed God and whatsoever faith. Jesus did not claim these smart kind of parroting verses.

True that they knew scripture, but they misunderstood. They did not believe who Jesus said he was, and his purpose in coming. More than that, they did not “trust” God. Instead they were looking for and expecting someone who would come as a warrior and conquer who would stake out a geographical claim and get rid of Roman rule. Not a savior that would die on the cross for mankind's sin.  If they had believed and trusted God, then they would have admitted they were sinning, and they didn't want to do that.

When people hear the gospel message and believe in their hearts that what they are hearing is true, will then put their trust in him to do for them as God has promised.  God wants us to believe the gospel message

John 6 : 9
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Acts 2 : 39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off

1 Ephesians 1 : 13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

On 1/13/2022 at 4:09 PM, R. Hartono said:

Are we still have time to seek Holy Spirit ? 

We don't need to seek the Holy Spirit, for he already resides in each believer's heart. The above passages tells us that when we “hear” the gospel message, the Holy Spirit is given to each believer and is a promise. The receiving/indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation

The story of Cornelius in Acts 10 is an example of what I just said. Cornelius was a gentile that worshiped God, but he had not heard the gospel message until Peter came to his home. When Peter arrived, a large gathering of people were already there in Cornelius's home. Peter began his sermon in verse 28 and while he was still speaking,

 

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

The Holy Spirit was given to all in Cornelius's home who were listening to Peter talk about the gospel. They didn't need to ask for him or seek him.

 

On 1/13/2022 at 4:09 PM, R. Hartono said:

Christians are competing with the world to seek job, wealth, food, beautiful home, education, recreation, health facility, clothing, security means, transport etc.

 

Paul made a point in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that he and his colleagues worked for a living rather than sponging off their hosts. Paul was a tent maker by trade.  They earned their keep, rather than rely on handouts.  They worked at jobs, just like everyone else.

2 Thessalonians 2 : 7, 8
We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.

2  Thessalonians 2 : 12
Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

 

On 1/13/2022 at 4:09 PM, R. Hartono said:

Are we even Worthy.

 

Grace is "unmerited favor".  In other words, it is unearned.  Christ's death on the cross makes us worthy of heaven. 

Romans 3:22-25
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

 

[R. Hartono]

18 hours ago, appy said:

Lets start with  your opening post.

The above could not happen till after Jesus' ascension. The Holy Spirit is also called our Advocate. After Jesus went back up to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit to be with us.

John 16 : 7, 8
7   But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8  And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:…

True that they knew scripture, but they misunderstood. They did not believe who Jesus said he was, and his purpose in coming. More than that, they did not “trust” God. Instead they were looking for and expecting someone who would come as a warrior and conquer who would stake out a geographical claim and get rid of Roman rule. Not a savior that would die on the cross for mankind's sin.  If they had believed and trusted God, then they would have admitted they were sinning, and they didn't want to do that.

When people hear the gospel message and believe in their hearts that what they are hearing is true, will then put their trust in him to do for them as God has promised.  God wants us to believe the gospel message

John 6 : 9
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Acts 2 : 39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off

1 Ephesians 1 : 13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

We don't need to seek the Holy Spirit, for he already resides in each believer's heart. The above passages tells us that when we “hear” the gospel message, the Holy Spirit is given to each believer and is a promise. The receiving/indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation

The story of Cornelius in Acts 10 is an example of what I just said. Cornelius was a gentile that worshiped God, but he had not heard the gospel message until Peter came to his home. When Peter arrived, a large gathering of people were already there in Cornelius's home. Peter began his sermon in verse 28 and while he was still speaking,

 

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

The Holy Spirit was given to all in Cornelius's home who were listening to Peter talk about the gospel. They didn't need to ask for him or seek him.

 

 

Paul made a point in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that he and his colleagues worked for a living rather than sponging off their hosts. Paul was a tent maker by trade.  They earned their keep, rather than rely on handouts.  They worked at jobs, just like everyone else.

2 Thessalonians 2 : 7, 8
We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.

2  Thessalonians 2 : 12
Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

 

 

Grace is "unmerited favor".  In other words, it is unearned.  Christ's death on the cross makes us worthy of heaven. 

Romans 3:22-25
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

 

You have not included Acts 10:46 ...for they heard them spoke in tongue... 

Its the sign of Holy Spirit baptism. Tongue is fueled by hellfire and no one can tame their tongue in difficult Times, so when Holy Spirit come He control your tongue to pray Glosolalia and/or Xenolalia.

Matt 3:11 ... He will baptize you with Holy Spirit and Fire

the above prophecy should be fulfilled in all church like in Cornelius.

Do you see the funny picture  i posted of a sales force squeezed by the closing door ? The same phenomenon happened at the local church here, the pastor said :"Holy Spirit baptism ? No thanks we believe in Jesus here so we had it already".

We shoul learn of the facts that even Peter and other apostles were told to Wait in Jerusalem because They Did Not Received Holy Spirit even howbeit they believed and lived with Jesus face to face for 3 years. How about you ? Is your Faith greater ? Only faith didnt make them receive Holy Spirit until the Pentecost Day 

Acts 8:16 explains how Peter and John met believers who had not yet received Holy Spirit, your situation is more or less the same.

@Wayne222

Im glad witnessing the good news of Holy Spirit baptism. Its all for believers' benefit. Time never waits for us, people are losing every second now as the clock is tickling. Death comes without invitation.

Why because the test is not easy right now, without Holy Spirit Fulfillment christians will be easily uprooted sooner or later.

Edited January 30, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Wayne222]

When you hear the gospel and believe you are then seal with the holy spirit ephs 1:13. 

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

When you hear the gospel and believe you are then seal with the holy spirit ephs 1:13. 

The Gospel first preached by Jesus and apostles all believed Him, but that doesnt mean they have received Holy Spirit baptism from Lord Jesus as God told them to wait in Jerusalem for Holy Spirit downpour/baptism.

Because God had yet to claim them with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost Day.

Eph 1:13 is about Holy Spirit opening people's heart and seal them but the sealing is about Holy Spirit baptism as had happened to Cornelius. Cornelius believed Peter's evangelism because Holy Spirit opened his heart first but it doesnt mean He has already rcvd Holy Spirit until Jesus gave Holy Spirit baptism and he spoke in tongue.

Some people have not received Holy Spirit after many years of praying and we dont know why, thats between God and them.

Edited January 30, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Willa]

We are born again when we hear and believe, trusting in Christ as Lord and God, and asking Him to forgive us and come into our lives to help us to live the Christian life.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

I was born again when I first repented in the 8th grade.  I was filled with the Holy Spirit when I was 25. For some people these occur concurrently.

Joh 1:11  He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.  Joh 1:12  But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Joh 1:13  who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

Off the subject, I was amazed at Sunday's baptism service that about half of the 25 odd people who were immersed were adult men over 40.  Only 5 of the people were under 20.  Most people are saved when they are young.  

 

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, Willa said:

I was born again when I first repented in the 8th grade.  I was filled with the Holy Spirit when I was 25. For some people these occur concurrently.

Amen and thanks for sharing.

Edited January 30, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Marathoner]

We're in agreement regarding this matter, @R. Hartono. As the example from the book of Acts clearly illustrates, calling upon the name of the Lord --- through which Christ Jesus is well-pleased to save us from this world and our trespasses --- is not the same as what some refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I refer to the latter as follows:

The Lord pours His Spirit upon us.

The disciples, whom the Lord most assuredly chose as His own, were already saved by virtue of God's grace as revealed through His only begotten Son, the express image of the invisible God. The disciples became apostles of Jesus Christ when the Lord was well-pleased to pour His Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost, which He promised before He left to prepare a place for us. In days of old only the prophets of the Lord were given His Spirit; it is therefore apparent that the baptism of the Spirit and fire serves the purpose and will of God who gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.

I'll share my testimony as it pleases the Lord for me to do so. 

God does as He pleases, revealing Himself to whomever He wills, extending His mercy and grace to whomever He desires. Who are we to question Him? Like our sister @Rosie1jack2pauline3, the Lord chose to reveal Himself to me when I was a young man in my mid-20's, a stranger who held to the belief that it was impossible to know God. I had never attended a church nor was I proselytized by a missionary. The Lord Himself chose me, claiming me as His own, and from that moment nothing was ever the same again. 

I was stunned and utterly speechless, of course. "I'm a horrible man!", I cried in dismay to the Lord. "Why did You choose me, Lord? I'm an idiot!" I simply could not comprehend God and His ways, nor why He came to me out of the blue. Neither could I grasp the meaning of all His Spirit spoke of on that day; the Lord spoke of everything that would come to pass until the time came when, having rendered that service which He preserved me for, I would stand before Him. 

I was perfectly clueless! Over 30 years passed until that time arrived. Everything which the Lord declared came to pass precisely in the manner which He spoke. Having rendered that service which God ordained before I was born, the Lord called to me in the wilderness, saying the time to stand before Him had come. Obeying His voice, I arrived at the place where the Lord told me to come --- that same place where I had crawled two years earlier when I was almost dead, and He delivered me from the grave. 

I looked to the horizon and was struck with terror... the sky on that day was spotless and clear, only now a host of storm clouds skirted with lightning swiftly approached. The wind stirred and began to howl through the trees; I fell to my face on the ground and cried out, "The Lord will destroy me! I am dead!" Only I was not.

The Lord spoke from the cloud with a voice like thunder saying, Rise and stand upon your feet; your portion is no longer the dust. 

The wind ceased and everything was calm. 

I could not see --- my eyes were overwhelmed with brightness --- and the only thing I was aware of was His voice, which surrounded me like tremendous thunder. The Lord declared that He was well-pleased with my obedience to His commandment, having rendered that service which He set me aside for, and so now He would fulfill His promise to restore everything I had lost a hundredfold. The Lord took me up in spirit on high... so high that I will not say where I was... and He breathed upon me. 

When the Lord breathed upon me, there came a great wind of fire which washed over me and through me. In an instant my eyes were opened, and I was changed. The Lord baptized me with Spirit and fire. 

So, I understand the meaning of that phrase. This is not a matter of salvation, my friends, for I was saved on that day when the Lord chose me from this world. As the scripture tells us, God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.  

Edited January 30, 2022 by Marathoner
typo

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

We're in agreement regarding this matter, @R. Hartono. As the example from the book of Acts clearly illustrates, calling upon the name of the Lord --- through which Christ Jesus is well-pleased to save us from this world and our trespasses --- is not the same as what some refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I refer to the latter as follows:

The Lord pours His Spirit upon us.

The disciples, whom the Lord most assuredly chose as His own, were already saved by virtue of God's grace as revealed through His only begotten Son, the express image of the invisible God. The disciples became apostles of Jesus Christ when the Lord was well-pleased to pour His Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost, which He promised before He left to prepare a place for us. In days of old only the prophets of the Lord were given His Spirit; it is therefore apparent that the baptism of the Spirit and fire serves the purpose and will of God who gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.

I'll share my testimony as it pleases the Lord for me to do so. 

God does as He pleases, revealing Himself to whomever He wills, extending His mercy and grace to whomever He desires. Who are we to question Him? Like our sister @Rosie1jack2pauline3, the Lord chose to reveal Himself to me when I was a young man in my mid-20's, a stranger who held to the belief that it was impossible to know God. I had never attended a church nor was I was proselytized by a missionary. The Lord Himself chose me, claiming me as His own, and from that moment nothing was ever the same again. 

I was stunned and utterly speechless, of course. "I'm a horrible man!", I cried in dismay to the Lord. "Why did You choose me, Lord? I'm an idiot!" I simply could not comprehend God and His ways, nor why He came to me out of the blue. Neither could I grasp the meaning of all His Spirit spoke of on that day; the Lord spoke of everything that would come to pass until the time came when, having rendered that service which He preserved me for, I would stand before Him. 

I was perfectly clueless! Over 30 years passed until that time arrived. Everything which the Lord declared came to pass precisely in the manner which He spoke. Having rendered that service which God ordained before I was born, the Lord called to me in the wilderness, saying the time to stand before Him had come. Obeying His voice, I arrived at the place where the Lord told me to come --- that same place where I had crawled two years earlier when I was almost dead, and He delivered me from the grave. 

I looked to the horizon and was struck with terror... the sky on that day was spotless and clear, only now a host of storm clouds skirted with lightning swiftly approached. The wind stirred and began to howl through the trees; I fell to my face on the ground and cried out, "The Lord will destroy me! I am dead!" Only I was not.

The Lord spoke from the cloud with a voice like thunder saying, Rise and stand upon your feet; your portion is no longer the dust. 

The wind ceased and everything was calm. 

I could not see --- my eyes were overwhelmed with brightness --- and the only thing I was aware of was His voice, which surrounded me like tremendous thunder. The Lord declared that He was well-pleased with my obedience to His commandment, having rendered that service which He set me aside for, and so now He would fulfill His promise to restore everything I had lost a hundredfold. The Lord took me up in spirit on high... so high that I will not say where I was... and He breathed upon me. 

When the Lord breathed upon me, there came a great wind of fire which washed over me and through me. In an instant my eyes were opened, and I was changed. The Lord baptized me with Spirit and fire. 

So, I understand the meaning of that phrase. This is not a matter of salvation, my friends, for I was saved on that day when the Lord chose me from this world. As the scripture tells us, God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.  

Thanks for sharing.

Do christians at your church speak in tongue (glosolalia and xenolalia) ?