All Christians believe in predestination

[angels4u]

Will this topic never end?

Will there be different sections in heaven for the Calvinist and other doctrines ?

Are we not all members of one body?

They key really is to ask ourself are we born again and how do to know for sure that we're born again,people have all kinds of doctrines but it's only by the blood of Jesus we're saved

This topic is so alive on this forum that is practicially overtakes the love we should have for one another,when Jesus comes back ,how will He find us,will you let Him in on the conversation or focus on other things?

What would He wants us to do and how does He wants to find us when He comes back?

 

[Sparks]

Just now, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Where is your interpretation of this scripture, so I can check it out?

I have already done this.

[Sparks]

Just now, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Then please tell me where, so I can read it?..

Scroll up until you see my reply to Omega about that scripture.  It's there.  Short answer:  God chooses us all.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, Sparks said:

Correct.  You didn't.   I posted the scripture you posted that had no reference to these things.  You should post the chapter, verse, and translation when you post scripture.  It allows people to research what you are saying. 

OK, this is getting weird, I cannot even follow what you are saying, I am going to assume that I am too dense to get it, so I am going to try again, and see if we can figure out what is missing, or why I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Of course if people kept to the topic (the topic is a video about the doctrine of predestination not everything you or other think is wrong with what you call Calvinism), this probably would not have gotten so confusing. My fault for letting it get of track. Did anyone even once talk about the video?

Anyway, back to trying to reconstruct the crime scene:

You said, that you wish that I would correctly quote scripture, and that was directly below, the first line below a quote of mine that you posted. Here is is:

OK, so as you see, you quoted me saying, "No one can come to the Father unless the Father who sent me draws Him." Then you said that you wish I would correctly quote scripture noting the the verse and version. 

Replying to that, I posted the verse and version, and it showed that what I had posted, was an EXACT word for word quote. So that is what is confusing me. If it was (and it was) an exact quote, it what way is in not correct? 

Rather that addressing what the quote said (not an implication nor interpretation), you did a smoke screen, and did not address the quote, just apparently made up something about it being a misquote - not correct. By the way, it worked, it did misdirect and got you out of dealing with the quote.

Then you did smoke screen number two. You asked "where does that scripture say he only calls the few?" I never said it did! I never took a debate or logic class, so I am not familiar with the types and names of logical fallacies, but when you argue against something the other guy did not say, what is that a strawman perhaps? That is why I asked you to respond to what I actually say, not what you think I might mean.

So, if I said that "No one can come to the Father unless the Father who sent me draws Him" . . . where did I say that is says that "he only calls the few"? Answer: I did not say that, you said I said it, but I did not, so you are debating not what I said, but putting words in my mouth to the effect that I said something I did not. Knock it off - play fair, or take your ball and go home!

Can you understand why I am confused, I don't want to sound condescending here, but I do not know what else to say - talking in a way that I think most people would get it, is not working, so I will say it in a way that I think a child would understand, but trying not to insinuate that you talk and think like a child. Is there a way to do that? To recap, and I do not know how to make this any simpler, but here are some points:

1. You implied that I did not correctly quote scripture, then reaffirmed that that is what you meant to say, that I did incorrectly quoted scripture.
2. I provided the quote, the address and version, which proved that I did not misquote scripture, but exactly quoted scripture. I even provided alternative version and showed they all said the same thing. 
3. You asked where that verse says that he only calls a few, implying (to me anyway) that that is what I was trying to make it say.
4. I pointed out, that it does not say that, and that I never said it did.
5. Since I did not say that, but YOU injected the topic of "the few", I went out of my way to provide verses that DO talk about the few, and what they say about them, instead of the alternative topic that we were NOT discussing.

You are quite adept at misdirection, changing subjects, ignoring points made, not acknowledging when a point is made or clarified and just move on to something else. Normally I call this the "yes, but" syndrome, but you leave out the "yes" and move on the the "but". 

I (and others) others are being straight with you, but when you are asked questions, you often just try to maneuver around them. It doesn't seem to be working so far. Even here again, you have managed to divert away from the topic, by creating a debate about what you did or did not say in the topic, but not about the topic. You just shift gears as nothing ever happened!

Well, this is why threads like this always get closed. When people keep changing topics, and avoid adding anything to the discussion, it just gets circular and they are closed because they are not productive. You have been around here long enough to see this happen several times, it makes me wonder, is this is not your intention. If it is, you don't need to work so hard toward changing the topic, or getting it closed down. If you don't like the way it is going, you could just bow out of it, or wait until you have something relevant to say instead of accusing others of irrelevant to the topic posts. no one will think worse of you.

To that point, did you even one time, in one post, address the topic - that is the video? Anyway, time to make breakfast, carry on!

[Sparks]

1 minute ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

So, I can see from this reply that you truly didn’t understand Omegaman posts or scripture that he posted....where does it say in scripture that “ God Chooses Us All”?..the word “ chooses” us all please, which means everyone, is that correct?

You're right.  But to correct your statement, it's better to say I don't understand any Calvinists reasoning about Salvation scripture, because 1) I am not one, 2) it's an entirely false doctrine countered by scripture, and 3) I am not a fatalist (one who believes we have no freewill).

[Sparks]

Do you think I can reply to that hidden post, Omega?  The conversation is out here. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, Sparks said:

Not being snarky here, it's a real question:   Why do Calvinists (or whatever flavor du jour) bother to proselytize? 

Easy! There are people out there, who need to hear the gospel:

Romans 10:13-14, ESV

13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?^c And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? 

That is what God has ordained for us to do. Further:

 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in^b the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

Matt 28:19,20 ESV

Jesus had disciples. He told them to make other disciples, and to teach them ot observe all He commanded them. One of the things He commanded, was to go and make disciples, so we obey, what He said, and this is how the church spreads, and the kingdom grows, and is a mechanism God has chosen to use, is there some reason that Calvinists should disobey? (It is a rhetorical question).

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, angels4u said:

Will this topic never end?

Will there be different sections in heaven for the Calvinist and other doctrines ?

Are we not all members of one body?

They key really is to ask ourself are we born again and how do to know for sure that we're born again,people have all kinds of doctrines but it's only by the blood of Jesus we're saved

This topic is so alive on this forum that is practicially overtakes the love we should have for one another,when Jesus comes back ,how will He find us,will you let Him in on the conversation or focus on other things?

What would He wants us to do and how does He wants to find us when He comes back?

Some good questions there, will it never end? Well, the topic will end here, because it will be closed. Really it should not even be here, the thread is about a video, not about disagreements with Calvinism. We have places for that, but typically they get closed. No one is forced to read them, and if it is distasteful to some, they can go to the "Is it just me" kind of threads, or the prayer section, where is is safe! 

As far as the topic in the church in general, yes, it will end, when Jesus returns.

Are we not all members of one body?

Yes, we are, and we as one body have discussions around the table, as families do. Do we all agree? No, of course not, we are flawed in out understanding. Happily, some of us like to discuss things. Personally, I learn way more from those I disagree with, than people I agree with. Who learns from hearing what they already know? I was a pre-trib rapturist once upon a time, people who disagreed with me, let me know that there were other points of view. That drove me to the scriptures, where I learned I had most likely been wrong. So after 8 months of daily study - reading every verse in the Bible looking for just those things, I leaned that the post-trib rapture idea (historic premillennialism) seemed to fit the scriptures best, with the most harmony, no contradictions and not need to import ideas into eschatology that are not contained in the scriptures. Others disagree, and that is their right. However, disagreement should not be for the sake of one's own ego, but because some things in the Bible are important even if they are peripheral, and they should be talked about. This is how we learn. Listen to others, read the Bible, yield to what it says under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. These kinds of discussions, help others who read them to come up to speed and learn about positions and the reasons for them, even if those involved never are persuaded to change their view. I am thankful for people like Sparks, who bring these things out so that they can be discussed, even if it seems like I do not appreciate it.

At one time I was not a Calvinist (a term I do not embrace nor do I think is accurate) until I became aware of the disagreements. Again, the disagreements, drove me to the Bible, and I was forced by scripture to understand that the so called 5 points of the T.U.L.I.P are right out of scripture, and are therefore in harmony with it, what else should I do?

Is if divisive? Yes, it can be, that depends on the quality of the discussion and the character of those in it. As far as I am concerned, using Sparks as an example again, I could go to the church he attends (unless they teach some dangerous heresy), and after the sermon, we could go out and enjoy lunch together. So no, we are not divided, he and I are brothers who acknowledge and worship the same God and Savior, right? We are family!

Besides. Paul said (in 1st Cor 11) their have to be factions among you". Disagreements do not need to be a problem, in fact, they tend to bring good doctrine to light, alongside the bad doctrine. Then we can be Bereans and search the scriptures daily, to see if these things are so. The lazy and disinterested will not, but that is their loss.

Some people are wired more for prayer and praise, and they should do that if that is their calling and gifting. Others are more interested in study and learning, and without them, where would we be? We would be saved of course, by the simple gospel, but we would not come to understand all that God has provided for us to learn about Him and His ways. Without theologians "arguing", we might not have known (or noticed) that God has a triune nature, for example.

What would He wants us to do and how does He wants (SIC) to find us when He comes back?

I am okay with Him finding me in a discussion like this, I think it is edifying, it builds the body up in areas where it is lacking. If someone is not edified, then as I said, they do not have to read these types of discussions. As long as we love each other (I do, and in fact, expounding on some of the things I have learned is scripture, is one way I exercise my love for others and for my Lord), and do other needful things, like evangelism, helping those who need our help, devote ourselves to prayer, even serving here on this forum, and not just we "servants" but all members who congregate here and share knowledge and fellowship with each other.

How we act in the Lord is an individual thing, between us and our master, and by the way Angels. thanks for what you do here, and for even bringing this up!

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, Sparks said:

Do you think I can reply to that hidden post, Omega?  The conversation is out here. 

I am not sure that I know what you are referring to. I do sometimes hide my posts, when I am working on one, and and called way, so that I an return to it where I left off. I also sometimes to that, so that it is saved, many of my posts I cannot save, because the software logs me out or something. I save what I have, to prevent that from happening, and I hide them, so that people do not reply to the incomplete form of them. When they are finished, I then unhide them. Often I am busy in a PM, or dealing with some matter on the forums, or approving some post of some such. Does this address your question?

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Heaven_Bound said:

Where was these people who Believed they were Saved, Predestination at?

You might have to unpack that a little, I am not sure I understand what you are asking. However, maybe this will address it.

It is not believing that one is saved, that saves one. It is those who have a living relationship with God by grace through faith, who are saved. Those who are not saved, predestination or not, are separated from God in eternity. The nature of that existence is debated, but that other debate certainly does not belong in this one.