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What is the 'New Covenant'?


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11 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

t appears you didn't answer the question. Is the practice of Pentecost/Feast of Weeks works under the Law? Did the Apostles practice Pentecost/Feast of Weeks to receive the Holy Spirit?

I said no there is no mention of them leaving the upper room to go to the Temple to make offerings or sacrifices.  Instead they obeyed the Risen Lord's words to stay and pray.  It did occur on Pentecost but they were following Jesus' instructions in Acts 1 instead of the commands of Leviticus.  I thought that answered your question.  

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Got Questions:  Old covenant vs new covenant—what are the differences? (Summary)

 

In summary, the Old Covenant was governed by a law that prescribed correct behavior and that the people continually broke. It contained a sacrificial system that only temporarily removed sins. The sacrifices were administered by priests who represented the people of Israel to God, but the people could not enter God’s presence themselves.

The New Covenant is governed by a law that is internalized by the people of God and energized by His Spirit. The sins of the people are forgiven and removed once and for all by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the people of God have direct, intimate access to Him. Finally, Gentiles who believe are included in the New Covenant.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Willa said:

I said no there is no mention of them leaving the upper room to go to the Temple to make offerings or sacrifices.  Instead they obeyed the Risen Lord's words to stay and pray.  It did occur on Pentecost but they were following Jesus' instructions in Acts 1 instead of the commands of Leviticus.  I thought that answered your question.  

Romans 2:12

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 

Thank you for the clarification.

Readers seeking salvation beware that those who disregard the Law will Perish without Law and those making boast of the Law while breaking it are condemned by the same. Conclusion, both Jews and Gentiles are under Sin.

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17 hours ago, Willa said:

Got Questions:  Old covenant vs new covenant—what are the differences? (Summary)

 

In summary, the Old Covenant was governed by a law that prescribed correct behavior and that the people continually broke. It contained a sacrificial system that only temporarily removed sins. The sacrifices were administered by priests who represented the people of Israel to God, but the people could not enter God’s presence themselves.

The New Covenant is governed by a law that is internalized by the people of God and energized by His Spirit. The sins of the people are forgiven and removed once and for all by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the people of God have direct, intimate access to Him. Finally, Gentiles who believe are included in the New Covenant.

 

 

One principal difference is that the Sinai Covenant was between a specific Nation from a Specific Patriarch Abraham and Issac and Jacob and the twelve children of Jacob the Patriarchs of the twelve tribes.  

That Sinai Covenant was given to this Nation in the dessert of Sinai.

This is telling that the people of the Nation of Israel did not have forgiveness of sins.

The Lord their God had only asked them to keep the Covenant of Circumcision, and for that matter he did not punish them for their sins. 

As it is very strange he did not rejected them even when they were worshiping the Gods of Egypt. He still consider them the children of Abraham and for that reason he considered them part of his nation.

And this is because they were his people from the time they were circumcise on the  eight day after they were born. 

While they were still infants and were not conscious what was happening. 

Their parents had to make their decision for them and there was not way to reversed that even as adults, or no matter what they were doing, as it was promised to Abraham when God gave him the Covenant of Circumcision. 

They were judged to whether to be included or excluded with the Covenant of Circumcision. 

This is why Abraham did not loose anyone of his Circumcised descendants, till the time the Law was given and the ten commandments. 

No Law, no judgment no punishment for sins including exclusion from the community and cut off from God. With the Law we begin to have the Lost sheep of Israel those who were cut off from the community and from the Lord their God.  

With the Covenant of Circumcision the women were included because of their Father or their husband. 

And their female children were included because they are the seed of their Circumcised Father. 

In the Christian family of God their not rituals as it was under the Covenant of Circumcision or under the Law.

In both those Covenants the children had to be the seed of a Circumcised Father, and they were considered unclean for seven days the same as their mothers that why they were Circumcised on the eight day when both the mother and the baby boy were considered clean.

In the Christian faith their is no rituals because the mother and the baby are always considered clean, so the children of Christian Parents are born clean and born unto the Lord because of their Parents faith in Jesus Christ. 

When their parents are baptizing their children they are baptizing children that belong to God, they are not baptizing their children so they can be included in the family of God, not for that reason it cannot be because they already belong to God because of their parents. 

That's why some groups they dedicate their children to the Lord because they belong to him already, being born to parents who believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. 

Edited by Your closest friendnt
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7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When their parents are baptizing their children they are baptizing children that belong to God, they are not baptizing their children so they can be included in the family of God, not for that reason it cannot be believed they already belong to God because of their parents. 

That's why some groups they dedicate their children to the Lord because they belong to him already, being born to parents who believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. 

I really liked what you said down to these last 2 paragraphs.

 1Co 7:14 NKJV  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Is sanctified in the wife (hēgiastai en tēi gunaiki). Perfect passive indicative of hagiazō, to set apart, to hallow, to sanctify. Paul does not, of course, mean that the unbelieving husband is saved by the faith of the believing wife, though Hodge actually so interprets him. Clearly he only means that the marriage relation is sanctified so that there is no need of a divorce. If either husband or wife is a believer and the other agrees to remain, the marriage is holy and need not be set aside. This is so simple that one wonders at the ability of men to get confused over Paul’s language.

Else were your children unclean (epei ara ta tekna akatharta). The common ellipse of the condition with epei: “since, accordingly, if it is otherwise, your children are illegitimate (akatharta).” If the relations of the parents be holy, the child’s birth must be holy also (not illegitimate). “He is not assuming that the child of a Christian parent would be baptized; that would spoil rather than help his argument, for it would imply that the child was not hagios till it was baptized. The verse throws no light on the question of infant baptism” (Robertson and Plummer).  Robertson's Word Studies.

 

Moreover, those who don't baptize infants normally do so because they believe in believers baptism.  A believer is one who has chosen to follow Christ as his Lord and Master and who believes that Christ is risen from the dead, which infants are unable to comprehend.            

  In baby dedications Parents dedicate themselves to raise the child in the Christian faith by both example and precept, and dedicate the baby to God. (Baptist, Calvary Chapel)                                                                         However, many of those who baptize infants believe that babies receive the Holy Spirit at that baptism and are thereby born again.  (Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist)

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1 hour ago, Willa said:

In baby dedications Parents dedicate themselves to raise the child in the Christian faith by both example and precept, and dedicate the baby to God. (Baptist, Calvary Chapel)                                                                         However, many of those who baptize infants believe that babies receive the Holy Spirit at that baptism and are thereby born again.  (Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist)

Willa--can you show where Calvin wrote this? That the infant baptism moves from the 'sign' to regeneration and being born from above?

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On 3/20/2022 at 4:31 AM, Willa said:

Got Questions:  Old covenant vs new covenant—what are the differences? (Summary)

 

In summary, the Old Covenant was governed by a law that prescribed correct behavior and that the people continually broke. It contained a sacrificial system that only temporarily removed sins. The sacrifices were administered by priests who represented the people of Israel to God, but the people could not enter God’s presence themselves.

The New Covenant is governed by a law that is internalized by the people of God and energized by His Spirit. The sins of the people are forgiven and removed once and for all by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the people of God have direct, intimate access to Him. Finally, Gentiles who believe are included in the New Covenant.

 

 

Hebrews 10:9

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

 

In the book of Hebrews it teaches about the relationship between the Old/First Covenant and the New/Second Covenant. How can the First be taken away if it is not practised? How can the Second be established if the First is not practised?

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20 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

One principal difference is that the Sinai Covenant was between a specific Nation from a Specific Patriarch Abraham and Issac and Jacob and the twelve children of Jacob the Patriarchs of the twelve tribes.  

That Sinai Covenant was given to this Nation in the dessert of Sinai.

This is telling that the people of the Nation of Israel did not have forgiveness of sins.

The Lord their God had only asked them to keep the Covenant of Circumcision, and for that matter he did not punish them for their sins. 

As it is very strange he did not rejected them even when they were worshiping the Gods of Egypt. He still consider them the children of Abraham and for that reason he considered them part of his nation.

And this is because they were his people from the time they were circumcise on the  eight day after they were born. 

While they were still infants and were not conscious what was happening. 

Their parents had to make their decision for them and there was not way to reversed that even as adults, or no matter what they were doing, as it was promised to Abraham when God gave him the Covenant of Circumcision. 

They were judged to whether to be included or excluded with the Covenant of Circumcision. 

This is why Abraham did not loose anyone of his Circumcised descendants, till the time the Law was given and the ten commandments. 

No Law, no judgment no punishment for sins including exclusion from the community and cut off from God. With the Law we begin to have the Lost sheep of Israel those who were cut off from the community and from the Lord their God.  

With the Covenant of Circumcision the women were included because of their Father or their husband. 

And their female children were included because they are the seed of their Circumcised Father. 

In the Christian family of God their not rituals as it was under the Covenant of Circumcision or under the Law.

In both those Covenants the children had to be the seed of a Circumcised Father, and they were considered unclean for seven days the same as their mothers that why they were Circumcised on the eight day when both the mother and the baby boy were considered clean.

In the Christian faith their is no rituals because the mother and the baby are always considered clean, so the children of Christian Parents are born clean and born unto the Lord because of their Parents faith in Jesus Christ. 

When their parents are baptizing their children they are baptizing children that belong to God, they are not baptizing their children so they can be included in the family of God, not for that reason it cannot be because they already belong to God because of their parents. 

That's why some groups they dedicate their children to the Lord because they belong to him already, being born to parents who believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. 

2 Kings 21:14

14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

 

Elohim delivered Israel into the hand of their enemies when they did Sin/Evil.

 

Are you saying that Christian Parents are Sinless? Are you saying the children of Christian Parents are born Sinless and Righteous? 

Edited by Elihoenai
Missed word
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10 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

2 Kings 21:14

14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

 

Elohim delivered Israel into the hand of their enemies when they did Sin/Evil.

 

Are you saying that Christian Parents are Sinless? Are you saying the children of Christian Parents are born Sinless and Righteous? 

Hello Elihoenai, thank you for the questions.

Your questions are revolving around individual righteousness. 

a) the righteousness of adults. 

b) the righteousness of the fetus, or the new born. 

And because you mentioned "Christian parents" and "their new born" specifically as I also did we have to consider them in our discussion as a unique group separated from the non-Christian. 

****

This all came about when we were looking at the differences between the Old Covenant the Covenant of Circumcision the Lord made with Abraham to whom he changed his name from Abram to Abraham.

For that matter we have to consider the Covenant the Lord made with Jacob whom he renamed Israel. 

It stands out that the Lord when he change the name of Abram to Abraham he started something New. With Abraham even before he changed his name while he was still Abram the Lord brought something New in the world. 

The same happened with Jacob when the Lord changed his name, or with better wordings when the Lord gave Jacob a new name ISRAEL, that time the Lord started something New. 

We need to bring into the picture Noah. 

Because with Noah the Lord started something New, in a way different than he did with Abram before he changed his name to Abraham. 

The Lord did not change the name of Noah at anytime in his life as he did with Abram when he changed his name to Abraham at a very important time in his life. 

The Lord had chosen Noah but after Noah had followed up everything the Lord had asked him to do in building the Arc and when the Arc was ready then the Lord said that Noah was "a righteous man". 

That was when Noah had obeyed the Lord in everything he had asked him to do, to build the Arc for him. 

The Lord only took into a count only Noah's following what he had asked him to do,  and we also Know that Noah and his Father's Fathers were not poluted with the Idols, they were unpolluted from the Idols, they were worshiped only the Lord God, the Creator. 

Note taken that the children of Noah were already born.

And were accepted by God because like their Father were not poluted by the Idols. 

With Abram the Lord did something that he did not do with Noah, and this is that Abram believed something that the Lord was doing or was about to do, that he will bless Abram with a lot of children and his descendants will be so many that they will not be extinct and will inhabit the earth knowing that Abraham was is their fore Father, being the seed of Abraham when Abram at this old age had not children yet even thought he had a wife and he had tried and he had asked God to bless him with children and he had no turned to the Idols to asked for their blessing in this matter. 

Take note that when under those circumstances Abraham believed the Lord that his descendants will be too numerous and not only like the sand earthly but also like the stars not earthly.  

Take note that moment when still Abram not yet the change of name to Abraham the Lord did something that he had never done before as a result we have for the first time a New Man on earth a Man with IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

WHO WILL HAVE CHILDREN IN THAT IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

Take note he did not have any children before. 

God had also had given Noah imputed righteousness but Noah did not have any children after that.

He had children only before. 

So with Abram-Abraham a Man who will have children while in the imputed righteousness who did not have any children before. 

So Abram with the IR (imputed righteousness) had Ismael with Hagar, 

After Ismael was born when he was a youth then the Lord gave Abram the Covenant of Circumcision, to include his descendants in his promise to him to take a people for himself from him and God change his name to Abraham.  

Ismael was born while ABRAM was in IR but not yet in Circumcision but never the less he was in IR, Ismael for that matter had inherited IR from his Father, that's what his Father had and that what he gave to him. 

After the Covenant of Circumcision and the change of Name from Abram to Abraham and the blessing upon Sarah who God also changed her name to Sarah, she was Sarai before, and God called Sarah the mother of many Nations or the mother of the Nation of God. 

Under the new circumstances the Lord had to give Life to Sarah as she had passed the age of child bearing so she can have a son and he brought forth a Son with Abraham the Son of the Promise. 

Note Issac inherited IR and the promise made to Abraham that God will have a Nation for himself. 

Issac also inherited what Abraham had that not all his children will be heirs of the promise only one of them will. 

Strange as it is Issac made sure to have only one wife to avoid the situations Abraham had to face and so he was thinking, or it just happened but the fact remains that he would have a son to carry on to have descendants for the Nation of God. 

At that time the Nation of God had only two people, Abraham was the first and Issac was the second. 

In their culture the first born inherits the blessings from his Father. 

Abraham had no problem in that matter and all siblings infighting was avoided when Sarah had only one son and no other children. 

With Rebeca is different she had only one pregnancy and she had tweens and their rivalry had started while in the womb.

We understand that the blessing of Abraham was given to Jacob. 

At that time in the Nation of God we have three people. 

Abraham, Issac and Jacob. 

Note how God is going to solve a problem he had at hand....what he had to do to increase or multiply the people in his Nation and to bring his promise to Abraham to pass, to have numerous descendants. 

So far that is not fixable. 

 

Jacob got into some sircumstances and matters became complicated when he was married to the Lea and not to Rachel the bright of his choice. 

Jacob but that time he had figured out as it happened between him and his tween brother that the blessing of Abraham will rest only on one of his children. 

He could have taken matters into his own hands and to not Circumcised the children of Lea and the other children and wait for the children of Rachel to have a Son from her and Circumcised only him so the blessing can rest on him , according to his choice. 

They were in the Covenant of Circumcision, only the Circumcised children were included.

Note the Lord gave them only one command to Circumcise their children. 

If Jacob had done this he would disobeyed God and he would be cut off from his blessing and he would not be able to pass it on to the children of his choice.

As the children that were born they had to be Circumcised on the eight day. 

God changed the name of Jacob to Israel and he did something New.

With Jacob the blessing of Abraham rested upon all his children and upon all their children's children.

Everyone who was born and Circumcised belong to the Nation of God, and they were under the Imputed righteousness of their Patriarch Abraham, they were one with their Patriarch Abraham. 

The Patriarch of the Nation of their God.

Everyone male that opened the matrix belong to the Lord.

If the Father did not Circumcised his children the Lord had to deal with him because those children belong to the Lord and he could not have them unless they were Circumcised. 

You can see what was happening to Moses who did not Circumcised one of his children the Lord went after Moses because his son was born to him but he could not have him because he was not Circumcised. 

The mother knew that and because they did not have boys in her family and she wanted to stay with her family and not go with the Israelites in the dessert, she kept the boy uncircumcised so he can remain with her family, so her family have a blood line from Moses.

But the Lord had plans for that boy and it belong to him and he was a Levy and later the Lord took the Levites unto himself and we read that he gave him and to his family some service in the Tent of the testimony. 

Look at what the children of Jacob did but they were not punished because they were protected because of Abraham's imputed Righteousness which they inherited from Abraham. 

Did you learn something. 

The Lord had to give them imputed righteousness so they are not Lost because of their sins because they did not have forgiveness of sins before the Law was given with the Priests and the Atonement.

In other words he left their sins unpunished and more, he continued to bless them so his plan can come to fruition and it does not depend upon their good behavior. 

And we are not only under the righteousness of Jesus Christ but we are also part of his nation and part of his Life and of his Spirit.

We are given of his Spirit as a quarantee that we are one with him now and continue all the time while we yet live or not...we are his Inheritance,  everyone who believes is his Inheritance in his name. And our children are born to him.  

Edited by Your closest friendnt
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1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello Elihoenal, thank you for the questions.

Your questions are revolving around individual righteousness. 

a) the righteousness of adults. 

b) the righteousness of the fetus, or the new born. 

And because you mentioned "Christian parents" and "their new born" specifically as I also did we have to consider them in our discussion as a unique group separated from the non-Christian. 

****

This all came about when we were looking at the differences between the Old Covenant the Covenant of Circumcision the Lord made with Abraham to whom he changed his name from Abram to Abraham.

For that matter we have to consider the Covenant the Lord made with Jacob whom he renamed Israel. 

It stands out that the Lord when he change the name of Abram to Abraham he started something New. With Abraham even before he changed his name while he was still Abram the Lord brought something New in the world. 

The same happened with Jacob when the Lord changed his name, or with better wordings when the Lord gave Jacob a new name ISRAEL, that time the Lord started something New. 

We need to bring into the picture Noah. 

Because with Noah the Lord started something New, in a way different than he did with Abram before he changed his name to Abraham. 

The Lord did not change the name of Noah at anytime in his life as he did with Abram when he changed his name to Abraham at a very important time in his life. 

The Lord had chosen Noah but after Noah had followed up everything the Lord had asked him to do in building the Arc and when the Arc was ready then the Lord said that Noah was "a righteous man". 

That was when Noah had obeyed the Lord in everything he had asked him to do, to build the Arc for him. 

The Lord only took into a count only Noah's following what he had asked him to do,  and we also Know that Noah and his Father's Fathers were not poluted with the Idols, they were unpolluted from the Idols, they were worshiped only the Lord God, the Creator. 

Note taken that the children of Noah were already born.

And were accepted by God because like their Father were not poluted by the Idols. 

With Abram the Lord did something that he did not do with Noah, and this is that Abram believed something that the Lord was doing or was about to do, that he will bless Abram with a lot of children and his descendants will be so many that they will not be extinct and will inhabit the earth knowing that Abraham was is their fore Father, being the seed of Abraham when Abram at this old age had not children yet even thought he had a wife and he had tried and he had asked God to bless him with children and he had no turned to the Idols to asked for their blessing in this matter. 

Take note that when under those circumstances Abraham believed the Lord that his descendants will be too numerous and not only like the sand earthly but also like the stars not earthly.  

Take note that moment when still Abram not yet the change of name to Abraham the Lord did something that he had never done before as a result we have for the first time a New Man on earth a Man with IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

WHO WILL HAVE CHILDREN IN THAT IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

Take note he did not have any children before. 

God had also had given Noah imputed righteousness but Noah did not have any children after that.

He had children only before. 

So with Abram-Abraham a Man who will have children while in the imputed righteousness who did not have any children before. 

So Abram with the IR (imputed righteousness) had Ismael with Hagar, 

After Ismael was born when he was a youth then the Lord gave Abram the Covenant of Circumcision, to include his descendants in his promise to him to take a people for himself from him and God change his name to Abraham.  

Ismael was born while ABRAM was in IR but not yet in Circumcision but never the less he was in IR, Ismael for that matter had inherited IR from his Father, that's what his Father had and that what he gave to him. 

After the Covenant of Circumcision and the change of Name from Abram to Abraham and the blessing upon Sarah who God also changed her name to Sarah, she was Sarai before, and God called Sarah the mother of many Nations or the mother of the Nation of God. 

Under the new circumstances the Lord had to give Life to Sarah as she had passed the age of child bearing so she can have a son and he brought forth a Son with Abraham the Son of the Promise. 

Note Issac inherited IR and the promise made to Abraham that God will have a Nation for himself. 

Issac also inherited what Abraham had that not all his children will be heirs of the promise only one of them will. 

Strange as it is Issac made sure to have only one wife to avoid the situations Abraham had to face and so he was thinking, or it just happened but the fact remains that he would have a son to carry on to have descendants for the Nation of God. 

At that time the Nation of God had only two people, Abraham was the first and Issac was the second. 

In their culture the first born inherits the blessings from his Father. 

Abraham had no problem in that matter and all siblings infighting was avoided when Sarah had only one son and no other children. 

With Rebeca is different she had only one pregnancy and she had tweens and their rivalry had started while in the womb.

We understand that the blessing of Abraham was given to Jacob. 

At that time in the Nation of God we have three people. 

Abraham, Issac and Jacob. 

Note how God is going to solve a problem he had at hand....what he had to do to increase or multiply the people in his Nation and to bring his promise to Abraham to pass, to have numerous descendants. 

So far that is not fixable. 

 

Jacob got into some sircumstances and matters became complicated when he was married to the Lea and not to Rachel the bright of his choice. 

Jacob but that time he had figured out as it happened between him and his tween brother that the blessing of Abraham will rest only on one of his children. 

He could have taken matters into his own hands and to not Circumcised the children of Lea and the other children and wait for the children of Rachel to have a Son from her and Circumcised only him so the blessing can rest on him , according to his choice. 

They were in the Covenant of Circumcision, only the Circumcised children were included.

Note the Lord gave them only one command to Circumcise their children. 

If Jacob had done this he would disobeyed God and he would be cut off from his blessing and he would not be able to pass it on to the children of his choice.

As the children that were born they had to be Circumcised on the eight day. 

God changed the name of Jacob to Israel and he did something New.

With Jacob the blessing of Abraham rested upon all his children and upon all their children's children.

Everyone who was born and Circumcised belong to the Nation of God, and they were under the Imputed righteousness of their Patriarch Abraham, they were one with their Patriarch Abraham. 

The Patriarch of the Nation of their God.

Everyone male that opened the matrix belong to the Lord.

If the Father did not Circumcised his children the Lord had to deal with him because those children belong to the Lord and he could not have them unless they were Circumcised. 

You can see what was happening to Moses who did not Circumcised one of his children the Lord went after Moses because his son was born to him but he could not have him because he was not Circumcised. 

The mother knew that and because they did not have boys in her family and she wanted to stay with her family and not go with the Israelites in the dessert, she kept the boy uncircumcised so he can remain with her family, so her family have a blood line from Moses.

But the Lord had plans for that boy and it belong to him and he was a Levy and later the Lord took the Levites unto himself and we read that he gave him and to his family some service in the Tent of the testimony. 

Look at what the children of Jacob did but they were not punished because they were protected because of Abraham's imputed Righteousness which they inherited from Abraham. 

Did you learn something. 

The Lord had to give them imputed righteousness so they are not Lost because of their sins because they did not have forgiveness of sins before the Law was given with the Priests and the Atonement.

In other words he left their sins unpunished and more, he continued to bless them so his plan can come to fruition and it does not depend upon their good behavior. 

And we are not only under the righteousness of Jesus Christ but we are also part of his nation and part of his Life and of his Spirit.

We are given of his Spirit as a quarantee that we are one with him now and continue all the time while we yet live or not...we are his Inheritance,  everyone who believes is his Inheritance in his name. And our children are born to him.  

You said in previous post:

"...In the Christian faith their is no rituals because the mother and the baby are always considered clean, so the children of Christian Parents are born clean and born unto the Lord because of their Parents faith in Jesus Christ...."

What do mean by Clean? Do you mean Sinless and Perfect? Are you saying that the children of Christian Parents inherit Sinless Perfection?

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