Why Was There A Day Of Atonement PLUS People Giving Personal Sacrifice's?

[Marilyn C]

On 2/2/2022 at 3:50 AM, Open7 said:

I’ve been reading Leviticus and wondered why is there a yearly day of atonement for the sins of the nation of Israel, plus on top of that families/individuals had to bring sacrifices for their sins regularly. Why not just one of these?

My best guess is that the day of atonement was more to cover the sins of Israel in an overall kind of way, while families bringing sacrifices was more specific. Not the best answer but maybe it’s something like this?

 

Thanks

Hi Open7,

Good question there. All God`s Feasts for Israel are a rehearsal for the real thing. Here is a diagram that may help you.

[Anne2]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

No worries. 

However, for future reference, I don't believe my standards are inordinate: Just show me the scripture supporting any claims made. In this case some scripture either explicitly stating or some pattern or precedent in scripture showing distinctions is sufficient. That's what I did: I provided evidence from the scriptures evidencing the continuity of the covenants and their ties to Jesus as the perfect sacrifice. 

 

And, of course, I respect the effort not to go too far afield of the op.  right back at you. 

Thanks. I believe however since Jesus is representative of all the sacrifices, it is not inappropriate to see the power of his one sacrifice distinctly in each one.

 Josephus tells us, the goat added for sin to all the rest of the sacrifices on each of the days of unleavened bread are intended as a feast for the priests. Jesus died that day. Reading concerning the sacrifices for sin, only the priests could eat them, they were most holy. Anything, or anyone that even touched them was holy. Can we through this sacrifice see additional distinctive themes added to our understanding?

1. Passover circumcision was required, showing us citizenship, inclusion in the covenant made with Abraham.

2. The goat for sin, eating that which is most holy at the Priests table, members of his household.

We can gain spiritual aspects of these things in looking at each of these distinctly, because they all belong to him.

Num 28:17  And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
18  In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:
19  But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:
20  And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram;
21  A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
22  And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.
23  Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering.
24  After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.
25  And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.
25  Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.
26  The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.
27  Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.
28  But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water.
29  All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy.
 

Joh 18:28  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. 

Lev 6:25  Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.
26  The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.
27  Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.
28  But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water.
29  All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy.
 

It becomes a priestly meal.

The common people were strangers (ZUWRS, ALLOGENES) to this. Which zuwr denotes one alienated, or estranged from.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

40 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

oops

 
 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I agree. There are distinctions. I believe this is at least implicit in might noting the Passover sacrifice is not a sacrifice explicitly for sin. Certainly there are distinctions but they are all tied together as witnesses to/for/about Jesus. 

We are the priests. 

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The OT foreshadows the NT. What was veiled and hidden in the OT is revealed and explained in the NT. Those were copies. 

Whichever way you want to put it. But It clearly brings in that context of the Lord's supper. Holy, set apart sanctified. No longer aliens or estranged. That is for both Jew and Gentile. 

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

And if the above is true then it applies here as well.

Re 1:6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Re 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First death, First resurrection?

Ro 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 

This speaks of the Church age then....

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

This is where we may have to part ways and agree to disagree because I do not find the term "Church age" in my Bible anywhere. Yes, I know it is a term accepted by most theologies and yes I know I cannot find the term "Trinity" or "spiritual death" in my Bible either. The reason I resit the premise of a "Church age" is 1) because of the many things I have already posted about the New Testament's revelation of the Old Testament, but also because the Church existed in the age that was ending (all those references about the last days and end of the age were written by those in the Church to those in the Church) and because there is a correlation and continuity between the assembly (qahal) of the Old Testament and those called out (ekklesia) of the New Testament. In other words, the Bible does not make the distinction that men have made after the canon was closed. Scripture is plain and clear: the Christian is grafted into the exact same tree to which Israel was already a branch. Israel is not the root; it is a branch, and not all Israel is Israel. This New Testament FACT not all Israel is Israel is germane to this op because that statement is made in Paul's exposition of the Law and the Law is where we find the atonement sacrifices codified. In other words, just as the sacrifices (however distinct they may be in and of themselves) foreshadow Christ, and just as the priests foreshadow Christ and his body, so too the qahal foreshadows the ekklesia. 

 

The righteous shall live by faith. 

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile; all are one. 

 

Certain theologies make distinctions where scripture does not. For example, on my way home this afternoon I was listening to a preacher on the radio and he was discussing how there aren't two different groups of people standing before God in the end, God doesn't have a group of Jews and a group of Gentiles standing separately in the shed blood of Christ and I remember thinking, "Good for that guy," even though he was teaching about imminently occurring end-times events he understands the soteriological continuity of scripture but then he started referencing Ellen White's prophecies, 1844, the Great Disappointment and I realized he was Seventh Day Adventist teaching Adventist eschatology. He had the one body correct but got his use of "age" or "ages" messed up. I assume (hope) you're not SDA. I mention this example only because it's recent and fresh in my mind. 

 

Matthew 12:30-32
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore, I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10:29-30
Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. 

Hebrews 6:1-8
Therefore, leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,  of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.  And this we will do, if God permits.  For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,  and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.  For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;  but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

The scriptures speak of an "age to come," and that is juxtaposed against "this age" or the "present age." While there may be many ages the NT speaks of a simple dichotomy. The first century Church was living at a time when the ends of the ages had come upon them. Many say Pentecost was when God inaugurated the Church Age but it is clear from the above scriptures that the age future to Jesus' teaching in the gospels is one in which eternal life is obtained. We might respond, "We now have eternal life," but the angels is in the details because what Jesus said was eternal life absent persecution and the receipt of wealth hundred-fold of the things possessed in his material wealth list. According to the author of Hebrews, those converted to Christ have only "tasted" the powers of the age that was to come for the Church. 

I therefore conclude we're not there yet. 

So, while the phrase or concept of "Church age" might be a useful tool for some parsing of scripture it is not something scripture teaches. As you know, I come from the Reformed end of things (theologically) and we're big on "the Church Age" so I post my dissent having questioned my own orientation and knowing many of my Reformed siblings will protest. Look to the scriptures. 

The word "age" is not mentioned in any of those verses or the passages in which those verse are written. In point of fact, the word "age" does not occur anywhere in the entire book of Revelation . That word and that concept are ALWAYS an addition to the book and that book tells us not to add to it . Furthermore, those priests about which Peter was writing - the Christian - they were living in the ends of the ages falling upon them. He wrote that after Pentecost when the "Church age" supposedly began. Neither of Peter's epistles ever mention any age, either. Neither does the book of Acts, the book of the history of the early Church. 

I will also add there is a priesthood and monarchy, and a priestly monarchy outside of the Law and atonement sacrifices! We find it first explicitly mention in Melchizedek. He was a high priest of God and the king od the city of peace. We find the same dynamic instituted by God in the Judges. They were rulers and priests to whom the Levitical priest and all other civil rule were to submit. In 1 Samuel 8, at the time of the last Judge, we find God telling Samuel the Hebrews' demand for a monarch was a rejection of God as their king. All of this is tied together in the New Testament in Christ and his body of priestly believers. Jesus is the Great High Priest, the one who is Priest in the much higher order of Melchizedek and NOT the lower order of Aaron or Levi. 

What does that make us? 

So, we see that the royal priesthood precedes and follows the Laws of atonement. It did not start with Pentecost. I would argue it began with Genesis 1:1 but I can evidence it having begun at least as far back as Genesis 14, before the aforementioned Genesis 15 and 17. 

John 1:9-17
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.  But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.  John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"  For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.  For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

 

We are those not born of the blood or will of man, but by the will of God. According to Hebrews 11, those men and women of faith listed from of old are among us. They too are among the royal priesthood. 

The righteous shall live by faith. 

Romans 3:21-25
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed...

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.  Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,  namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.  Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.  He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 

 

Apparently, according to the New Testament, WE are it and "we" include those listed in Hebrews 11. We are the righteousness of God and we and our righteousness exist apart from the Law. That righteousness preceded, permeated, and followed long after the Law and it iss manifested through faith in Jesus Christ - and Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all the sacrifices, even the non-atoning ones. For those who believe... 

 

...there is no distinction. 

 

 

.

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

SDA, absolutely not.

I agree with much of what You have said above. I may have phrased something wrong that caused you to think the Church is a different tree. The root has always been Christ, as he is the Royal seed of promise, Sara is an allegory.

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Hagar also an allegory for Sinai.

Gen 17:19  And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21  But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

And so it is Moses never gave then a king, though God promised Abraham Kings from his loins through Sarah.

Israel as a people were Children of 2 COVENANTS of promise. 

Ex 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

The first born received a double portion of inheritance. These are the likeness of the circumcision that walked by faith, such as Joshua and Caleb. There were always truly faithful men that were heirs of both covenants. The earthly/natural first, then the heavenly/spiritual.

Not all Israel is Israel. Not all were faithful, not all were heirs of both covenants. But certainly some were.

The covenant/law from Sinai made the Levites priests in the first Tabernacle. The high priesthood was exclusive to the sons of (order of Aaron). The Israelites were strangers to the priesthood.

Nu 16:40  To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

Even the Levites not of the seed of Aaron, could not enter in behind the veil, This is the day of Atonement. Nor burn incense.

The term for stranger in these verses is zuwr.

It was all about a Shadow of spiritual truths to come. Melchizedek priestly kings. Which the apostles would sit on twelve thrones, Judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Prophets, kings, priests were all Annointed ones Christs/ messiahs. Again shadows and likenesses. 

Not all, even of the sons of Aaron, were the (qahal) of the firstborn (Israel) of God. Which were the sons with two portions of inheritance. An inheritance from Abraham, in this world and this life which is temporal. And the promise remaining of the heavenly kingdom promised in the covenant of circumcision through Sarah.

Imo, It is Ephesians which most speaks to this.

The Sinai covenant, excluded the uncircumcised from citizenship. All twelve tribes were named on the vestments of the high priest. Upon his shoulders were two stones, with 6 tribes named on each. And the breastplate of Judgement three rows of four names of tribes as heirs of the 12 patriarchs. Gentiles had no name to appear before God. They had to be circumcised. Being uncircumcised left us in times past without the annointed (Christ), the holy one of Israel to appear in the first tabernacle before God, IN THIS WORLD. But keep reading.....

In Christ Jesus, BOTH HAVE ACCESS (Jew and Gentile) equally. In other words Jews could not enter in either to the throne room. Because apart from Jesus as our high priest, both are strangers, even the Levite were strangers. Only the high priest could enter.

What is now, and not yet is for faith and walking as Abraham walked according to hope. 

Rom 4:16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 ¶  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Who calls things which are not yet, as though they already are.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

49 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I don't have time to address the rest of your post but let me say I'm glad I'm not having to address the SDA issues. I am also delighted you take responsibility first for your own content. I therefore, don't read insinuated blame directed at my end. Few posters do what you've just done and have done throughout this thread. Very commendable. I will confess it makes me suspicious because of my job - people who take responsibility for themselves usually have strong selves but sometimes it is the exact opposite: weak egos or self. I'm taking this opportunity off-topically to make note of your amazingness. Consider, for a moment, what the five pages of this thread would look like absent our branch in this op. We couldn't do it without your character and your contribution, your "style." Very commendable, very much appreciated, and I hope and trust it is "owned" knowingly. 

We all make mistakes wording things. I am mindful of the intersection of scripture's admonition against "many words," and my own verbosity. Lengthy posts make for mistakes. So far, what I read is well said and if I don't comprehend something I'll ask. Much of whatever differences exist so far appear to be matters of language, not substance. 

 

We'll find out when I have time to examine the rest of your post . 

 

lol, As far as the ego thing, who knows what this says..I KNOW I OFTEN DON'T SAY THINGS WELL. I AM ACUTLEY AWARE OF THIS. BUT>>>>On The occasions I do I love it. Being understood is a good way to learn. None of us understands everything, not a one. We need each other. You my friend are very precise, and sometimes it is irritating, but in the end so useful if one uses it. We all have our place.

[Anne2]

50 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Nope, don't think anything was wrong, per se. I was just covering the base ahead of time to move the conversation forward. 

I think that is correct. I would use slightly different language . Sarah is representative of the promise that comes through faith, and Hagar is representative of the flesh and the human effort and human will. Sinia is also representative of the flesh, so I don't think much distance is gained by connecting one early flesh to another early flesh, especially if we don't move into the newer revelation and covenant  in our understanding. For example, Sara/h and Hagar play right into John 1's 

John 1:9-14
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.  But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

We are the children of promise. We are not children of works, especially not works that kill. We are born of God's will, and God's work, God's promise to will and to work for His purposes so that He might be glorified. We hen do that sort of stuff in our flesh it's just narcissistic idolatry  .  Men, well-meaning godly mean make dichotomies and sometimes those divisions are useful and/or valid and sometimes they are not. One of the true dichotomies of scripture is the between flesh and Spirit or, more fundamentally, humans and God. Despite the fact Abrahm was a man who believed in God and was considered righteous through his faith, he had to operationalize his faith and he was fairly inconsistent making his faith faithful. Hagar is an example of that. So to were his lies to Abimelech. He was comfortable with half-truths a little too much. He wins the day with his willingness to slay Isaac believing God would provide the sacrifice . In the end, you are correct, it points to Christ resurrected. Remember: all the Law points to Christ. So a pov that views Hagar as the Law still does not escape the witness the law bears to Christ. It is the way people handle these many witnesses (such as the atoning sacrifices) that messes things up. 

2 Corinthians 1:19-22
For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silvanus and Timothy—was not yes and no, but is yes in him.  For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are yes; therefore also through him is our amen to the glory of God through us.  Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,  who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 

According to Paul those OT promises are ours. Made to the Jews, or so it seemed at the time, but revealed to be about Christ for those who are in Christ. At Pentecost Peter was expounding upon the prophets and he said, 

Acts 2:37-39
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"  Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 

Speaking to a Jewish audience he said the promises were for them, their children, and those who are far off (which is a reference to the Gentiles who would soon becoming to Christ in droves). Paul went onto tell the Corinthians of God's promises, 

2 Corinthians 6:16-7:1 ESV
What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  Therefore, go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,  and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

We have those Old Testament promises, many of which preceded the sacrifices of the Law. This is why it is is always important not to stop with the OT and to always find what the NT says about any given OT text. 

The promises precede Abram and Sara. God's promises begin in Genesis 1:1 when understood through 1 Peter 1:20. They are found in his promise of a woman's seed - one of promise and not man's will or work - and again in the blessing to rule over all and the standard of righteousness through faith. It does not begin with Abe. Doesn't end with the Law, either. Sara and Hagar both point to Christ but by completely different means. Sara by way of promise and Hagar by the insufficiency of works. This has larger implications because ALL other religions have some works-basis for achieving whatever is the pinnacle of that religion. Only Christianty is a faith of faith. For us whatever works exist occur only after salvation, not as a means to salvation. 

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;  not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 

 

• By grace
• Through faith.
• For works - works planned before our salvation for us to perform. 

 

Grace is the cause, faith the means, and works the purpose. Judaism had it backwards. So did Abraham for awhile. 

But, Josheb we are still in our flesh. What I mean is we walk just like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc. I do not see in scripture two covenants with rules such as treaties, or conditional, vs unconditional strictly applied to each one. I think that is a mistake. I see Abraham as being given "promises" that are conditional clear up until God swares an oath by himself. God IMO was building Abraham's faith all the way through it. So, it seems to me, we should not be looking at when God spoke promises as a promise as we understand that term. If everything God ever said were a promise As we understand it, Why would he ever sware an oath? Galatians tells us the oath makes it sure. Swearing an oath is what made it sure. It settles it. Nothing can be taken away, nor added to it. The Levitical priesthood was without an oath.

Perfect

Ge 17:1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect

And here

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. {Behold … : Heb. Behold me }
2  And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
The trying of Abraham (which is our condition as fleshly) is as James, and Peter speak of. That when we are tried is works patience. We become fully furnished. 

Abraham, was accounted as PERFECT, lacking nothing in his faith. We cannot be tempted and walk like Abraham without being tried all along the way.

 

1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 ¶  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; {temptations: or, trials }
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

So, it was with Abraham.

And here comes the oath, established in Isaac.

15 ¶  And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16  And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
That is part and parcel of our covenant. Testing and perfecting. Abraham will have these Children. As we walk this earth will we be perfected and be one of them? We will be tried as we go. And those of us chosen (he will not put on each of us more than we can bear) will arise in the resurrection along with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and sit at the table in the kingdom. In the next world and next life

That is the new covenant, we walk here in the meantime....Now, and not yet...

This is why John's baptism came first to the Jew, and last to the Gentile. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We were not given the promise in the past. We Gentiles apart from circumcision could not be unfaithful, nor faithful as Gentiles to a promise we had not received yet. It had it's own time to come to pass. So cornelius was preached to by Peter and received the baptism of the holy spirit first. Peter says (although they were all astonished) saying can anyone forbid water? Repentance, And we also find, the Chuch at Jerusalem was concerned that Peter went in and "ate" with an uncircumcised man. This I believe was fellowship in the Lords table. 

Ac 11:18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

What is not new testament here?

Edited March 13, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

In the flesh, but not of the flesh. 

Think Jesus, not Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. Jesus came in the flesh. He came in the flesh but he was also a man filled with the Spirit of God. We have been redeemed from sin and we no longer walk as we once did. There is, indeed, a "battle" that goes on within us, that of flesh and Spirit. Paul wrote eloquently and profoundly about that challenge in Romans 7 and 8. The mind of flesh is hostile to God and it does not and CANNOT please God but God works all things for good in the lives of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. The natural man cannot fathom the things of the Spirit, for they are foolish to him (and her ). The spiritual man judges all things. The very same guy who wrote, 

 

Romans 7:14-15
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.  For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

 

Also wrote, 

 

Romans 8:9-15
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.  So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—  for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.  For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

 

He wrote that after declaring the mind of flesh hostile and incapable. He wrote that as a Christian to Christians about Christians!!! He did not write that about non-believers, nor could he - the unregenerate have ONLY a mind of flesh. They have no Spirit dwelling within. We are not Jews. Neither are we pagan Gentiles. We are regenerate and redeemed sons and daughters of The Most High God indwelt with His own Separate and Sacred Spirit by which He is at work in us to both will and work for His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13) and that is how we work out our salvation once saved from sin and wrath. 

All humanity once stood in an inherent state of condemnation. Those who believe in Christ, those bound by the law of the Spirit do NOT live in that state anymore. It is a here and no disposition. 

Romans 8:1-2
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

 

If you sin, then you die. 

We've been freed from that law. 

Here and NOW. 

Act like it . 

We may not "feel" it, but we have been changed. 

And we should act changed. 

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 3:3-5
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?  Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?  So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 

Sara and Hagar were mentioned earlier. Paul wrote about them relevant to life in Christ. 

Galatians 4:28-31
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.  But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.  But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”  So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

We are not Jews. 

We should not impose the OT on the NT. We should do the reverse: the newer revelation renders and explains that which was previously veiled and hidden. YOU are a child of the free woman freed by Christ. 

Galatians 5:16-25
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.  For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.  Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,  envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.  Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.  For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.  Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.  So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. 

Philippians 3:3
...for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh... 

 

Paul wrote quite a bit about the divisions AND overlap of the flesh and the Spirit. Peter also said a few things that are very important: 

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit... 

1 Peter 4:6
 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

 2 Peter 1:1-11
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:  Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;  seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.  For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.  Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.  For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.  For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.  Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;  for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

You and I have been cleansed from past sin. A life in the Spirit characterized by confession, repentance, amends, forgiveness, and reconciliation maintains that cleanliness. It can be attempted in the flesh but works of the flesh lack any merit; even righteous acts of the flesh are worthless rags to God. We have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live. The life we live, we live by faith the resurrected son of God who loved us while we were still sinners. 

He does not stop loving us when we sin anew. He is faithful even when we are not. That is an elementary feature of the new covenant. We live as wheat among the weeds, and we do so by God's Providence. 

We might need to parse that out because the Abrahamic covenant was not unconditional. Those from a certain theological orientation (like the Dispensationalists) claim the land promises of the covenant were unconditional because God pledged eternal fealty to His own promise and no conditions are listed the first time the covenant is mentioned but 1) an absence of something is not the existence of its alternative, 2) arguments from silence are always fallacious, and 3) God did in fact have conditions from beginning to end - beginning with the requirement Abram leave Ur. That was a condition! There may be no conditions listed in Genesis 15 but there are in every other mention of the covenant. The "non-conditionalists" take one mention of the covenant, they take one silence of the one mention, and then that becomes the over-generalized defining feature of that covenant against all else God said. AND those who emphasize the OT over the NT 1) don't have a complete view of the Abe covenant and 2) Judaize Christianity. 

I trust that is not your view . 

If it is then perhaps some time should be spent covering these details. 

A similar dynamic exists in the covenant with Christ, after all the Abrahamic covenant is the Christ covenant veiled and hidden. In the Abraham covenant God pledged fealty to Himself, promising to be slain like the divided carcasses should the covenant be violated. It was violated. God did offer up His own Son. He did provide the sacrifice in Isaac's place. He did provide the sacrifice for the son of promise. 

So I'm not sure how it can be said there aren't two covenants with rules such as treaties, or conditional vs. unconditional strictly applied to each one. Those are the attributes of ALL covenants. That is what makes a covenant a covenant. 

Being Sara is a condition. 

Sara did not choose to be Sara. 

Neither was there anything about her that made her special on her own. She too was chosen by God. God could have had Abraham sire a child with anyone and brought about His plan in any other way. Only after they were chosen was anything asked of them. 

I said nothing about walking of the flesh or being of the world. I thought saying what I mean't would be good, but??

Trials and testing strengthens us, chastizement is also good for us. That is what I meant. It helps us "walk like it"

Ro 4:12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

The conditions do not stop there. Compare Gensis 15 with Genesis 17. The conditions of 17 come after God's implicit pledge in 15, not before. 

I do, too. 

I agree. Looking at Abraham and Moses utterly fails to do that. The covenant did not begin in Genesis 15 or 17! That is starting to late into th story. No one starts reading a novel and chapter 15 and has a complete view of the story having missed those first fifteen chapters and this is all the more so if they stop reading at Malachi 4:5! 

Yet, that is what some do and some of those who do so teach it that way. 

We are not Jews. 

The covenant - ALL covenants - started prior to Genesis 1:1, not Genesis 15:18 or 17:2. Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world as the perfect sacrifice. That s when the covenant began. We just did not know about it. It was alluded to in Genesis 1 with the blessing to be fruitful, subdue and rule AND the admonition not to disobey. That is the law of sin and death! Do not eat... or you will die! Do not disobey or you'll die. Only one rule to obey: don't eat. Sin is lawlessness. Sin is faithlessness. Sin is any unrighteousness. One law. One act of disobedience and sin entered the whole world, not just the one man or the one woman. Do not disobey Me or you will die. 

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

The covenant began prior to Genesis 1:1. It began prior to a single human ever drawing breath. It began with the foreknown perfect sacrifice.  

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.  In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.  The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it... There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.  But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

It is by that Logos of God that is God and was God in the beginning who was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice by which we have received the right to become sons and daughters of God, born not of human flesh or human will but by the will and Spirit of God. 

Right here. Right now. 

This is Christianity. 

It began prior to Genesis 1:1 and was revealed by God incrementally in many ways. The blood sacrifices, the promised seed, the seed of promise, the covenants, the Law, the prophets, the psalms - ALL of them testify to Jesus and not simply a Jesus as some wise human with special anointed but The Anointed One of God who is God living, dead, resurrected AND living! 

God spoke the promises long before He called Abram out of Ur. Long before He mentioned the word, "covenant" to the man to whom the gospel was preached (Gen. 3:8). 

 

Didn't we somewhat discuss If we don't believe the earthly things then how can we believe for the heavenly? If we have a faulty foundation we are going to have a faulty building. That is all these things of what came before are about. It is why Paul, Peter and James talked about these things, and Hebrews as well. To have an answer especially today to those which are teaching the old is the same as the new. They call it a renewed covenant. So, thats what I am about. Having an answer. As for implicit pledge. I don't know what that means. Before God sware an oath, he could have repented of it at any point prior to that oath. Implicit pledge? what is that. God bound himself by an oath, and will not lie. Nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken away. Therefore whatever God said prior to the oath, could have changed by subtracting, or adding. How do we know this? Because Paul found it new testament material, and important enough to teach it. It is IMO, just as important now, with all the Torah teachers out there.

[Anne2]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Hmmm... I do hope it is not being suggested I rely on my own understanding. If so, then I am gonna have to reject that premise out of hand, prima facie. We are to understand what God promised as God Himself explained Himeself, and that is impossible to do with only three-fourths of the Bible considered. The newer revelation reveals and explains the older revelation. 

I mostly agree but perhaps it is the terms "promise" and "covenant" that are the hitch because there is a sense in which every word God spoke is covenantal and promissory. God does not speak and change His mind or lie. Every word He speaks is true and will occur. In point of fact, the language of "will" as in "will occur" is a bit of a misnomer, a reflection of our finite and temporal existence. For God these are already done. He does not exist within the bounds of time or space. He says a word and it is. We don't put the word "done" on the end of that sentence as if to say, "God speaks a word and it is done," when we speak from God's Creator-of-creation position. That's matter of done-ness is a human-centric pov. 

It is one of the problems to be solved. 

We do not see or understand as God does. 

Even though we have the mind of Christ AND the Spirit who knows God's mind indwelling within us working to will God's purpose. 
 

I'm a little confused because this reads contradictory to the opening statement of the post. 

On one hand I read the post to speak about the problem of still being in the flesh but then at the end I read New Testament scripture plainly stating conditions of the new man (or woman). 

 

Believe one or the other. 

 

Believe the latter. 

 

We do NOT walk in the flesh as Abraham and Sara/h did. We have that for which they hoped: redemption from sin and regeneration. We have the covenant fulfilled. 

 

Hebrews 11:1-3, 8-14, 39-40
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.  For by it the men of old gained approval.  By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.... By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.  By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.  By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.  Therefore, there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.  For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.... And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

We have received that for which they hoped: the covenant fulfilled = Christ crucified and resurrected. His sacrifice was not only atoning (to tie it all back to the op); it was death-defeating and regenerative. No one is going to understand that if Leviticus is all that is considered. No one is going to understand all that is Christ considering only Abraham and Sarah. 

 

So I say, "Amen!" to the last half of the post. It's the first half I view warranting change.

No. 

First, the promise of Christ preceded Abraham. It preceded the Moses. John's baptism was available to all, even Gentiles and it was a ritual practiced long before the gospel era. John the Baptists did not invent baptism. It was the ritual used when a Gentile became a Jew!!! It was not originally for Jews! That is one of the reasons it was resisted by the Jews, especially those of the Jewish leadership: they were already Jews, members of the covenant and descendants of the bloodline. They did not need to become Jews. They did not need to become converted to Judaism, to the covenant, to the bloodline. They did not need cleansing. They believed they were already clean and they maintained their cleanliness through the rituals of the Law. 

The new covenant is not why John's baptism came first to the Jew. 
2 Kings 5:8-19
It happened when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, "Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel."  So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha.  Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean."  But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.'  "Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage.  Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?"  So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.  When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, "Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now."  But he said, "As the LORD lives, before whom I stand, I will take nothing." And he urged him to take it, but he refused.  Naaman said, "If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules' load of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering nor will he sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD.  "In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter."  He said to him, "Go in peace." So he departed from him some distance.

Naaman was not a Jew. Neither was the Centurion. 

Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,  He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,  whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;  in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,  who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.  Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. 

 

There were no Jews in Noah's day.

The ritual of baptism was symbolic of the Holy Spirt and the pledge of a good conscience and it far preceded the Law of Moses. It went back at least as far as the Flood. 

According to Peter. 

Heb 6:16  For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17  Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: {confirmed … : Gr. interposed himself by }
Heb 7:20  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

The Lord sware and will not repent. Because he sware, he will never turn from it. it is sure!

becoming circumcised indebting to do the law.

The Israelites entered into an oath, in the covenant BESIDES, the covenant made at Sinai.

In Moab, just before they were ready to cross over the Jordon. The entire tribe of Levi were already separated from the twelve tribes, and their inheritance was the Priesthood, the Lord, the tithes, etc. So they were not a party to this oath.

De 5:3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

 

De 29:1  These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

9  Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11  Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12  That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: {enter: Heb. pass }
13  That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14  Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15  But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
 

As for leaning to my own understanding. I don't think I am saying anything much different in the end than the early Church teaches. Or other Churches. Everything God spoke to Abraham was by promise. It is sure. But prior to that oath, it was "changeable".

So Israel (apart from the levite priesthood at Sinai) entered into a covenant and an oath, in Moab. This was Israel's part by an oath to keep.

De 7:12  Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

God would do his part, in the oath he sware to the fathers.