Hobie_ Posted February 9, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2022 20 hours ago, abcdef said: Jerusalem will soon be falling to Iran with the support of Russia and other nation who hate the children of Israel. It seems that many are seeing this event beginning to happen, but have not understood the timelines about this event. This imminent event is shown in the 2 witnesses, the 6/7th trumpet, the 6/7th vial, and the Rev 20 attack by the forces of Magog. The confusion stems from, 1. The idea that all symbols in scripture are literal. That is, the belief that the symbols themselves are the subject and not what the symbols represent. For example, the 2 witnesses are seen as 2 people instead of representing the people of Israel who hold the Law and the Prophets, Zech 4. 2. The distortion of the time lines to be exclusively future, instead of recognizing that some events have happened since the prophecies were made in the first century and earlier. That is, the confusion about the prophecies concerning the 70 AD ish destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of this present day restored to Israel Jerusalem for example. 3. The pretext that the Revelation is consecutive and not parallel. The events shown in the Revelation, the seals/trumpets, the 2 witnesses, the 7 vials, and the events of Revelation are all "centered" on the 70 AD ish through 1967 time period. Each passage showing different viewpoints of the same "general" time period pointing to the 1967 restoration of Jerusalem. The great question of the time period following the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem was, "Will Jerusalem be restored to the children of Israel and when"? The Revelation answers the questions, yes, Jerusalem will be restored, but after that event, it will be bitter news, Jerusalem will fall to the forces of Iran and Magog. ------- People now are beginning to see the events leading up to the fall of this present Jerusalem, that is, the forces of Iran, Russia, and the Magog nations, building up to take Jerusalem, but have not quite understood how the prophecies describing this event fit together. ------ Soon after Jerusalem falls, human life on this planet will end, the final judgment will follow and eternity with Jesus will begin, Rev 20. -- It is the apostate church that falls, and it will show its true nature again, like at the Inquisition, and it be made clear to everyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted February 9, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) On 2/8/2022 at 6:47 PM, abcdef said: The Rev 20 war is about to take place. The details surrounding the events of Rev 20 have been distorted by some who misunderstand the timelines. 1. The first distortion surrounds the resurrections. Paul indicates in 1 Cor 15:23-24, that there are only 2 resurrections, Jesus and the coming for those who are his, after that death is destroyed. This parallels the first and second resurrections of Rev 20. There can only be one first resurrection, that is Jesus as the first fruits. Then the second resurrection, after which death is destroyed, which also happens only once. The attempt to make the first resurrection of Rev 20 a future event, actually would make it the 3rd resurrection at least and the 2nd resurrection of Rev 20 the 4th resurrection. (Some pretrib theories have as many as 7 resurrections which contradict 1 Cor 15:23-24. This comes from reading the Rev as a continual time line instead of parallel timelines.) 2. The second distortion comes from believing that the mill period is a time of complete peace for the planet. The mill period is showing the time of the new covenant Pentecost kingdom. The peace is between God and the members of the Pentecost kingdom between the 2 resurrections. The rule of the resurrected saints is over the Pentecost kingdom and not the planet. Satan is bound in that he cannot destroy the children of Israel until they leave the gentile nations and return to restore Jerusalem. This parallels Rev 12 where the woman Israel, flees into the gentile nations until her time is over, then she returns to her home to restore Jerusalem. The beast nation sends a flood of people after her, but he is "bound" by the limits of his influence in the gentile nations. 3. The third distortion is that everything is literal, which ignores the symbolism of some entities. Satan is real, but the chain that binds him is symbolic and not a literal chain. The 1,000 year reign is real, but is not a literal 1000 years. It is symbolic of the time between the 2 resurrections, the time of the Pentecost kingdom of Israel on earth. Understand that is has been far longer than 1000 years since the 1st resurrection when Jesus was resurrected and the beginnings of the Pentecost kingdom of Israel. Rev 20:7, Satan is released from his prison, but it is not a literal material prison, it is a restriction on his abilities to deceive the gentile nations. =================================== When you say that the Rev 20 Magog war is at the end, I agree. But the Ezek 38-39 war is history. -- Scripture teaches that the 3 events seen below must take place prior to either the battle of Revelation 16:12-17 or Revelation 20:7-9 Three major events must be seen to be (at/near) the opening of the future 3.5 year tribulation 1.) (The Man Of Sin) must be revealed to the world and Church on earth, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 2.) (The False Prophet) performs miracles, calling fire down from heaven, before (The Beast) and world, Revelation 13:13-15 3.) The (Two Witnesses) are revealed bringing literal plagues, upon this literal world, comparable to Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, Revelation 11:3-15 Edited February 10, 2022 by truth7t7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted February 9, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted February 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Hobie_ said: It is the apostate church that falls, and it will show its true nature again, like at the Inquisition, and it be made clear to everyone... I don't understand exactly what you are saying or where in the scriptures you are referring to. Maybe you could expand on your statement a little bit, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted February 9, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted February 9, 2022 The Satanic dragon of Rev 20, One of the most important symbols in Rev 20 is the dragon of v 2. The dragon is called the Devil and Satan, but the Devil and Satan are spiritual beings and not material. So how does the Satanic dragon deceive the nations Magog into surrounding Jerusalem? ------ First understand that Satan, a spirit, must work in people to do his will. So the will of Satan is carried out by people and nations. In the case of Rev 20, the will of Satan to destroy the children of Israel is carried out by the gentile Magog nations. So who is it that carries out the will of Satan to deceive the nation? The answer is in the identification of the dragon. ----- Rev 20 is not the first time that the dragon is mentioned in the Revelation. Rev 12:3-4, shows the dragon as attacking the woman (Israel) and the attempt to "devour" the child that she brought forth. This shows that the dragon was present at the birth of Jesus and the time of Christ. But Satan is a spirit that works through people, in the example of the birth of Jesus, Herod and the Roman Empire would be the tool that Satan uses to carry out his will. In Rev 12:3, It says that the dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns. This identifies the dragon as the Roman Empire at the time of Christ. In Rev 12:13-14, It is shown that the dragon Roman Empire, continues to attack the woman Israel, to the degree that she must flee into the wilderness of the gentile nations, 70 AD ish. The time that she, Israel, spends there has a beginning and an end. In the beginning, she flees from her home which would be considered Jerusalem. When the time is over, she returns to her home to restore Jerusalem, 1967. (1900 years ish, not 3 1/2 years) ------ Now understand that Rev 20, is telling the same story. The Rev 20 passage begins with the child, Jesus, being caught up to heaven at the first resurrection. The chain in Rev 20 that restricts the dragon is the same picture as the waters in Rev 12 that he sends after the woman, but his influence is limited as the Roman Empire's power to destroy Israel was limited by the other gentile empires of the wilderness. ------- In Rev 20 we can see that this dragon, which has 7 heads and 10 horns (an empire that changes form over time, becomes divided), being able to again attack Israel once they have returned to restored Jerusalem. If we understand that the dragon is a form of Rome, then we can see that it is the 10-11 horned Roman dragon that deceives the Magog nations. -------- You may ask, "Why does the Roman dragon need to deceive other nations into destroying Israel in Jerusalem"? This is because as the Roman Empire divides and fails to become united entity, it is transformed into an "image" of it's former self which is today known as the Vatican. Being only a image, it does not have the power that it once had. Like an image in a mirror, you can see yourself, but the image does not have the substance that you have, the power to cause things to happen like you do. This event of the Roman dragon deceiving the nations also is shown in the 6th vial of Rev 16, where the dragon also deceives the nations into attacking restored Jerusalem. ----- So the dragon is Rome, both the Roman Empire at the time of Christ and the Vatican in our time. ---- As I have said, the Roman dragon Vatican has ALREADY deceived the kings of the east, Iran, and the gentile nations into surrounding Jerusalem. The deception is, that Israel is not the people of God and that the Vatican will not oppose the invasion. ---- The final events of this world are happening before our eyes, in our lifetimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted February 10, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 ---- These end time events, Iran crossing the Euphrates, the gentile Magog nations surrounding Jerusalem, and Jerusalem falling are going to come like a thief in the night, Rev 16:15. Most Christians will not even understand the events that are taking place, why? Because there will be so many teachers who will say, "Oh, this is not these events that are spoken of in the Bible. We won't be here for them, we'll be raptured". As the forces of Iran, Syria, and Russia continue to build up, they are now saying, "This is not a build up to the Battle of Armageddon, Armageddon happens after we are gone". As the final battle begins, they will say,"This is not the battle of Armageddon in Rev 16, we won't be here for that". As the forces of Israel begin to fail to the 200 mill army, they will say, "This is not the battle of Armageddon, we won't be here for that. And besides, Jesus is going to perform a miracle and save Israel and Jerusalem," Then when the forces of Iran and Magog have Jerusalem surrounded and the land of Israel taken, they will say, "Watch now, Jesus will save them." Then Jerusalem will fall. Iran and the Islamic nations will celebrate and send gifts to each other, a great celebration will happen for all those who hate Israel. Many will lose faith, because the teachings that they believed in were destroyed. Most will not understand and be in a state of shock. The teachers of pretrib will be stunned without answers. ----- Then 3 1/2 days later, after Jerusalem falls, the 2 witnesses, who are the Law and the Prophets which witness about Jesus and who are faithful Israel/Christians who were killed, will be resurrected in front of their enemies and the people of the world. Then we will caught up to be with Jesus, our Ark of the covenant and the door to salvation will be shut. Afterwards this world will end in fire when the stone strikes, within an hour after the resurrection. ============================= Right now I guess that you are thinking, "This can't be true, it goes against what I've been taught, or what I have been lead to believe". Well, it is not my part to Make you believe it. It is my part to tell you about it so that you understand it when it comes to pass. The Holy Spirit is the one who reveals it to your mind and heart. ============= I don't know how long it will be until the Battle of Armageddon, but the forces are now assembling and getting in position. Once Russian supported Iran and Syria begin the battle, it will be only days or possibly a week or 2 weeks before Jerusalem falls. =========== You don't believe it? That is OK. As long as you understand it, then maybe you will not lose faith when it comes to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted February 10, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2022 20 hours ago, abcdef said: I don't understand exactly what you are saying or where in the scriptures you are referring to. Maybe you could expand on your statement a little bit, thanks. Will have to wait till get back to the house... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted February 10, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 350 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,553 Content Per Day: 2.69 Reputation: 5,434 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2022 On 2/8/2022 at 3:04 PM, WilliamL said: Nope, to both theories. A lot of things left to occur before the Ezek. 38-39 war, which comes last in the sequence of End Time events; not first, as too many believe. Where do you place this verse in the prophetic time frame, in the millennium? Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: I believe the book of Revelation to be written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. Providing we agree on that point, who is left at and after the AOD to burn those weapons for seven years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted February 10, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 23 hours ago, truth7t7 said: 7t7 Sorry, but somehow I missed this post earlier. Reading your posts I see that you and I agree that the Revelation is telling parallel accounts of the same time periods. This viewpoint helps to clarify the events that you have listed here. 23 hours ago, truth7t7 said: Scripture teaches that the 3 events seen below must take place prior to either the battle of Revelation 16:12-17 or Revelation 20:7-9 I Agree 23 hours ago, truth7t7 said: Three major events must be seen to be (at/near) the opening of the future 3.5 year tribulation The 7 times are not years, they are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2. The (7 times) trib is the time from the captivity in Babylon until Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The "great" trib that Jesus spoke about was the second part of the statue, the second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD until 1967. This is shown by the angel in Dan. 12:7, who says that it will be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations, which was 70 AD. This was the 1st 3 1/2 times, not years, centuries. The days and months are symbols of time in symbolic passages, 70 AD until 1967. 23 hours ago, truth7t7 said: 1.) (The Man Of Sin) must be revealed to the world and Church on earth, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 The man of sin Antichrist is the head of the dragon nation which is Caesar and Rome. This is shown by the Rev 12 dragon who was present at the birth of Jesus as Herod and then Rome chased Israel into the wilderness of the gentile nations in the 70 AD ish time period. He is also seen in Rev 20 at the 2nd resurrection, centuries later. The revealing happened to the people of Israel in the 30 AD to 70 AD ish time period. Before it was revealed, Israel could not be sure if Rome was the iron nation of Dan. 2. But after Jerusalem fell, then it was understood that the 4th beast nation of Dan. 7 was Rome. This iron nation of Dan. 2 and 4th beast of Dan. 7 ruled over the children of Israel for 2000 years until Jerusalem was restored in 1967. Centuries, not 3 1/2 years. Consider that both timelines are continual with out breaks or gaps. Division happen, but no gaps in the time lines. 23 hours ago, truth7t7 said: 2.) (The False Prophet) performs miracles, calling fire down from heaven, before (The Beast) and world, Revelation 13:13-15 Caesar did carry out the will of God/Jesus by destroying the temple and Jerusalem by fire. Fire (judgment) from heaven, if you can accept it. The fire, God's judgment, continued until Jerusalem was restored, diminishing over centuries but continuing. The miracles. Consider, that to be a "saint" in the RCC you must be the subject of at least 3 miracles. So the Bishops of Rome considered to be "saints" have been believed to performed at least 3 miracles. 23 hours ago, truth7t7 said: 3.) The (Two Witnesses) are revealed bringing literal plagues, upon this literal world, comparable to Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, Revelation 11:3-15 The 2 witnesses are also called the 2 olive trees. Are they literal olive trees? No. This symbolism is tied to Zech 4 which identifies them as the children of Israel who carry the Law and the Prophets. In the vision of Zech 4, the Holy Spirit oil that flows is through the olive trees showing that the the Holy Spirit flows out to creation through the children of Israel by the scriptures. Eternal life, God's blessings, wisdom and understand, all flow from God through the children of Israel. Are they literal candlesticks? No. The candlestick and lamps parallel the 7 congregations of Rev 2-3 and the lamps of Zech 4. These are the "lights" of God that show God's will and the path of salvation, again through Jesus and Israel. --- Rev 11:5, The "plagues" are brought by holding and speaking (mouth) the scriptures that bring judgment (fire) on their enemies by pointing out sin and that Israel are the people of God. This scripture fire is meant to cleanse souls of sin through repentance, but to the unbelieving and enemies of Israel it is torment, Rev 11:10. The waters turning to blood show that the living Holy Spirit waters of the river of life that flow from God's throne to souls are corrupted by the rejection of those scriptures and Israel. Unbelief taints the waters. ========================= Now consider that the passage about the 2 witnesses is parallel to the seals/trumpets narrative, and others. The time line of the 2 witness and the seals/trumpets both begin with the rejection of Jesus and the kingdom by the children of Israel. Say about 37 AD ish. (The 6th seal shows the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. The trumpets show the time after the 70 AD destruction) The 2 witness are the story of faithful Christian Israel, the church, who flee into the wilderness in the 70 ADish time period. The seals/trumpets are about unbelieving Israel who suffer the withdrawing of God's protection. Both groups return to restore Jerusalem in 1967. ----- Rev 11, The 2 witness, faithful Israel, the church, 37 AD ish - 1967 and until the 2nd resurrection. Rev 6- 11, The seals/trumpets, unfaithful Israel, 37 AD ish- 1967 and until the 7th trumpet resurrection. Rev 12, The faithful Israel and the church in the wilderness after the resurrection of Jesus, 63 BC (The invasion of the dragon Rome)- the restoration of Jerusalem at the end of the time in the wilderness of the gentile nations. Rev 13, The period of Caesar and Rome's domination over the children of Israel from 63 BC until Jerusalem is restored in 1967. Rev 14, Israel from the 1st resurrection of 33 BC until Jerusalem is restored. (The blood flows as long as Israel is "outside" the city, Rev 14:20) Rev 15-16, The enemies of Israel, 70 AD - the end of human life on this planet. Rev 17-18, Unfaithful Israel (Jerusalem), from the invasion of Israel by the dragon beast Rome (1st head)-the restoration of Jerusalem. Rev 19:11-21, The prophecy concerning the end and dividing of the Roman Empire, by the sword gospel. Rev 20, The 33 AD resurrection of Jesus and the beginnings of the mill Pentecost kingdom of Israel until the second resurrection and beyond. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted February 10, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.38 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted February 10, 2022 On 2/8/2022 at 2:56 PM, abcdef said: Well, "soon" is a relative time. "Soon" to the Apostles in the time of Jesus, describing the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem, was only about 35 or 15 years ish. "Soon" in the context of creation and eternity could be significantly longer. In this context, the time between the beginning of the Pentecost gospel kingdom and the end of human life on this planet could be 1900 years, soon or a short time to the eternal God. ----- You are really asking, "How soon before this Jerusalem falls"? As I said, I don't know in the years of men. ---- My opinion is that the support that Israel has now coming from the USA and others will be diminished to the point where the defense of Israel can no longer be sustained, when will that be? It is happening now. Israel is small in land mass and population. It is half the size of the Netherlands, half the size of Belgium. It only took the Nazis 2 weeks to take the Netherlands. How long will it take for Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Russia to consume Israel, half the size of the Netherlands? When the end comes, it will come quickly. ---- The 6th trumpet shows that Israel/Jerusalem falls to a "200 mill" army. As in the Korean war, China overwhelmed opposing forces by the shear numbers of troops. This is the same picture that now faces Israel. Iran has already said that they don't need nuclear bombs to take Jerusalem, this implies that Jerusalem will be taken by the shear numbers of the troops opposing them, just as the 6th trumpet implies. 200 million. When you count armies, you don't just count the number of troops on the front lines, you also count the supporting troops, truck drivers, mechanics, cooks, etc.. In the case of the 200 mill., it is counting all the supporters of the front line troops, from every nations that supports the elimination of Israel. The 200 mill figure is easily reached just from counting the Islamic nations opposed to Israel. ---- You connected these things with current events and then used the word 'soon'--this implies that it is these current events that are indicative of a 'soon' fullfillment, so I asked you--"how soon"? That relative stuff doesn't relate to your mention of current events and soon in that context. How soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted February 10, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said: Where do you place this verse in the prophetic time frame, in the millennium? Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: I believe the book of Revelation to be written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. Providing we agree on that point, who is left at and after the AOD to burn those weapons for seven years? The "parenthetical" divisions prove that the Rev is not one continual time line. The chapters may be considered parenthesis. If you say that the Rev has parenthesis, then each section would have it's own time line which would duplicate or parallel the time lines of other passages, yes? So then, for example, the faithful woman Israel in Rev 12 would have other passages that are parallel. The question then would be, which other passages are parallel? Decide which other passages are parallel to Rev 12. The answer is that they all are to some degree. --- The Rev is the story of Israel, faithful and unfaithful, answering the question of will Jerusalem be restored and what happens after that. Rev 10-11, The seven sealed scroll says yes, Jerusalem will be restored, sweet news. But it will fall again, bitter news. ------ Ezek 38-39 is history, as shown in a recent previous post. In Rev 20 the Magog armies surround Jerusalem. In Ezek 38-39 they are destroyed before they reach Jerusalem. The armies in Ezek fall on the mountains, the Rev 20 armies are on the breadth of the earth. The similarities are seen, but the differences are often ignored. ------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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