The Last trump

[The Light]

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, indeed this is the order.

Please clarify...Jesus said the Wheat is the children of the kingdom...these are the believers identified in Rev. 11:18 - The prophets, the saints, them that fear his name both small and great..these are the ones Jesus raises on the last day...he specifically says it will be ALL those whom God has given to him...at one time...at the last day....not two groups of people...not two different times..it is adding into the text something that is not there. 

The wheat is the children of the kingdom. We see the wheat harvest at His coming for His church, when the THE LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven.

Then there is the fall fruit harvest that occurs at the 6th seal, when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will SEND HIS ANGELS TO GATHER his elect from heaven and earth. This is the end of the age before the wrath of God begins. We can see this harvest in Revelation 14

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The harvest of Rev 14 is the fall fruit harvest. The righteous believers in Christ are raptured to heaven, AND THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. This happens at the 6th seal.

Here's the root of the problem. Is this to be glossed over as if it's not there?

Matt 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You want him coming once. That's just not the case as the Word proves.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, brother...the question was not whether all of the dead would raise at the Second coming, they will, but the question was whether all the righteous dead would be raised at his coming...the answer that was given was that part of the righteous would be resurrected...this was why John 6 was brought up and other scriptures was to show that all the righteous are raised at one time...

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Please address what Jesus said that All the God gave to him would be raised at the last day...it would be a direct contradiction to say God will not raise all those who God gave to Christ on the last day, but rather he will raise some of those who God gave to him before the last day, and the rest of them that God gave to Christ he will raise at the last day.

 

 

The righteous dead are raised, that is, THOSE THAT ARE CHRISTS AT HIS COMING.

He comes for His Church before the 70th week. Those that are Christs at his coming are raptured. Then and only then can part of the Jews see that Jesus is the Messiah.

Then at end of the age, at the last trump, he comes for those that are Christs at His coming. This happens at the 6th seal.

Then he comes again with the armies from heaven. The armies of heaven include the Church that was raptured 7 years before wrath and those that are raptured at the last trump at His coming at the 6th seal. This is when the prophets and saints that did not know Jesus but were righteous are raised and given their reward.

There is a last day for the barley harvest. There is a last day for the wheat harvest. There is a last for the fruit harvest. There is a last day at the end of wrath and there is a last day at the end of the millenium.

[kenny2212]

Hello transmogrified,

The day of the Lord is the same as the great day of his wrath. It starts after the 6th seal...

Thank You.

Edited February 25, 2022 by kenny2212

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

There is a last day for the barley harvest. There is a last day for the wheat harvest. There is a last for the fruit harvest. There is a last day at the end of wrath and there is a last day at the end of the millenium.

I will be glad to go over the rest of everything that was in this last post, but the criteria that needs to be met to fulfill John 6 is that Jesus said he would raise all those that God gave to him on the last day.

1) All that that God has given to Christ will be resurrected on the last day...
Are there saints that God has not given to Christ?

Please address the specific question...Jesus would not have said he would raise all that God had given to him on the last day if he knew he was going to raise part of them at a different time.

Bless you...

[transmogrified]

12 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

The day of the Lord is the same as the great day of his wrath. It starts after the 6th seal...

Yes you are correct...the prophecies in both Joel and Acts specifically say the sun and moon will be darkened BEFORE that great and terrible day of the Lord come..

Blessings to you-

[transmogrified]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

What happens first? The dead in Christ will rise. Is that all dead or those in Christ? The answer is those in Christ AT HIS COMING.

Hi The Light-

I am sorry but I misunderstood what you were saying here and my response was also wrong to your comment...

But anyway I think I know what you meant after reading this again...you were asking whether all the righteous dead would be raised or just the dead in Christ.

The issue here is that some put forth a different definition of 'the dead in Christ' than how scripture defines it. 

Lets take the analogy of the olive tree by Paul..the natural branches were Israel and then some of these branches were broken off because of unbelief, and then the Gentiles were grafted in. 

So what needs to be understood is that the vine was not Israel...we were not grafted into Israel, we were grafted into Jesus Christ...the true vine is Jesus and we are the branches. So when Israel was broken off from the vine, it means they were in Christ all along even though they are called Old Testament saints.

This is also shown that when they are converted  it says they will be grafted back into the same vine from whence they were cut off from. And how do they get back into this vine? By accepting Christ...the same vine they rejected.

But we have to take the scriptural definition of who the dead in Christ are. We agree that the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet which occurs on the Last day, and both Jesus in John 6 and John in Rev. 11:18 gives the true description of who the dead in Christ are. And how are they defined?

John 6: 40-

1) All of those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day

2) Every one who sees the Son and believes on him will be raised at the last day

3) Those whom God has drawn to Christ will be raised on the last day

4) Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood will be raised up on the last day

And how does John describe the saints who will be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet?

1) To thy servants the prophets

2) To the saints

3) To them that fear thy name both small and great

The Last Day resurrection and the resurrection that takes place at the 7th trumpet is  the same resurrection for the same saints and that happens at the same time, but see that they are not limited to those who died from Pentecost...Yes of course those that died from Pentecost are included, but the rest of the definition includes his servants the prophets....this would include Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, John ect...ect...ect.

And when it says them that fear thy name it is acknowledged that all the saints from Adam and forward feared  his name whether they were great or small.

And of course when Jesus said he would raise all those who God had given to him, this would include all the Old Testament saints.

Of course in defining who is raised on the last day we also can see that there are no saints that would not be included in these definitions, so it results in the same conclusion....

'Behold, I show you a mystery. We (all those who God has given to Christ) shall not all sleep, but we (thy servants the prophets, them that fear thy name both small and great) shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.'

Bless you and look forward to talking with you again- Gary

[The Light]

On 2/25/2022 at 6:42 PM, transmogrified said:

Hi The Light-

I am sorry but I misunderstood what you were saying here and my response was also wrong to your comment...

But anyway I think I know what you meant after reading this again...you were asking whether all the righteous dead would be raised or just the dead in Christ.

The issue here is that some put forth a different definition of 'the dead in Christ' than how scripture defines it. 

Lets take the analogy of the olive tree by Paul..the natural branches were Israel and then some of these branches were broken off because of unbelief, and then the Gentiles were grafted in. 

So what needs to be understood is that the vine was not Israel...we were not grafted into Israel, we were grafted into Jesus Christ...the true vine is Jesus and we are the branches. So when Israel was broken off from the vine, it means they were in Christ all along even though they are called Old Testament saints.

This is also shown that when they are converted  it says they will be grafted back into the same vine from whence they were cut off from. And how do they get back into this vine? By accepting Christ...the same vine they rejected.

Yes I agree brother, Jesus is the vine. I agree with everything that you are saying. The problem is timing. You think that everything happens at the 7th trump. You are not understanding that Jesus is returning for every eye to see at the 6th seal. There will be a rapture. However, it is not the Church that is raptured it is the Jews (not including those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection.) The ones raptured at the 6th seal are singing the song of Moses. Part of the Jews cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The fullness of the Gentiles comes in when Jesus returns for the Church prior to the seals being open and the 70th week of Daniel beginning. Jesus is coming in an hour that you think not. Again, Jesus is coming in an hour that you think not. 

Everything in its order. Christ the firstfruits. The dead in Christ rise. afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order is they that are Christs at His coming. When He comes for Church it will be in an hour that you think not. It will be a secret coming. How many shows and movies have you seen with aliens coming and people disappearing? Do you think that there was no reason for the Star Trek ENERGIZE and people disappearing? This event of Jesus coming for His Church will usher in the new world order as the countries of the world band together against the lie of aliens did it.

Then at the 6th seal, Christ comes again. And then its they that are Christs at his coming. It will be those that sing the song of Moses, the Jews as they have been regrafted.

Then the wrath of God begins. Then at the end of the trumps, Jesus comes again.

 

On 2/25/2022 at 6:42 PM, transmogrified said:

But we have to take the scriptural definition of who the dead in Christ are. We agree that the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet which occurs on the Last day, and both Jesus in John 6 and John in Rev. 11:18 gives the true description of who the dead in Christ are. And how are they defined?

John 6: 40-

1) All of those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day

2) Every one who sees the Son and believes on him will be raised at the last day

3) Those whom God has drawn to Christ will be raised on the last day

4) Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood will be raised up on the last day

And how does John describe the saints who will be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet?

1) To thy servants the prophets

2) To the saints

3) To them that fear thy name both small and great

The Last Day resurrection and the resurrection that takes place at the 7th trumpet is  the same resurrection for the same saints and that happens at the same time, but see that they are not limited to those who died from Pentecost...Yes of course those that died from Pentecost are included, but the rest of the definition includes his servants the prophets....this would include Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, John ect...ect...ect.

And when it says them that fear thy name it is acknowledged that all the saints from Adam and forward feared  his name whether they were great or small.

And of course when Jesus said he would raise all those who God had given to him, this would include all the Old Testament saints.

Of course in defining who is raised on the last day we also can see that there are no saints that would not be included in these definitions, so it results in the same conclusion....

'Behold, I show you a mystery. We (all those who God has given to Christ) shall not all sleep, but we (thy servants the prophets, them that fear thy name both small and great) shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.'

Bless you and look forward to talking with you again- Gary

Thankyou Gary, and blessing and peace to you.

Let me ask you something. We are told to watch.

Matt 24

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mark 13

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What are you watching for? Armageddon? You should be watching for wars and rumors of wars. Seen any of that? You should be watching for famines. Seen any shortages lately? You should be watching for pestilence. Seen any plan-demics? Earthquakes? I'd say you will be seeing some of those shortly. We are not watching for Armageddon. We are watching to escape all these things that will come to pass

Secondly, why does Paul say, "but of the times and seasons" Why doesn't he just say "but of the time and season". He is speaking of a singular event. the day of the Lord. Why use plural? He is coming more than once.

1 Thes 5:9 

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

He writes:  "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." These people are not in darkness. They will know when the day of the the Lord happens. These are the Jews that are saved during the 70th week of Daniel. They will know Jesus is coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

But to the Genitles, they are told, in an hour that you think not the son of Man cometh. Two comings, two harvests, two brides.

1 Thes 5:9

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Verse 9 alone should prove to you without question that believers are not going to be going through the wrath of God. It is unbelievers and those of the Nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection that go through the wrath of God. 

The people from Adam to Christ never had a chance to accept or reject Christ as savior. They will be judged then, at the 7th trumpet.

Those that are Christs at His coming are raised or raptured alive at His coming. Once before the 70th week, and again at the 6th seal

Edited February 27, 2022 by The Light

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Let me ask you something. We are told to watch.

Matt 24

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mark 13

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If what is meant by 'escaping all these things,' means you will not be here, then Jesus should not have told his disciples that 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, then know that it is near, even at the doors.'

Jesus would have been misleading his disciples to tell them they would see him  sitting in  the temple if he knew the true believers would be raptured before this. The reason he didn't tell them that is because he knew the man of sin would come before the day of the Lord at which time they would be caught up. 

This is the same thing Paul told the Thessalonians...don't  let any man deceive you by any means...What would they be deceived about? He told them explicitly what not to be deceived about. He said 'THAT DAY' in which both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him (being caught up / resurrection) WOULD NOT COME except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed.

Also if 'escaping all these things' really meant they would escape all the things he mentioned it would not be just the appearing of the man of sin, but would also all the famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars...ect..ect..ect.

But it is indisputable that the disciples from the time of Christ to this present time have suffered famines, pestilences and earthquakes and wars and so forth and some have died as a result. The 'escape via rapture' concept did not apply to them although Jesus said to pray that you would escape ALL THESE THINGS, not just the man of sin.

Likewise Jesus said the same thing to them about the parable of the fig tree...the fig tree was not Israel, it was a parable about when you see the branch is tender and puts forth its leaves then you know that summer is nigh. What was the explanation of the parable that Jesus gave them? He explained it himself:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS know that it (The Day of The Lord) is nigh, even at the doors."

Notice what he said: 

'When you see all these things, then know that it is nigh even at the doors..'

Notice what he didn't say:

But you won't see all these things because you will be in heaven.'

The fig tree is an analogy that when you see all these things come to pass, not just famines, not just earthquakes, not just wars, but when you see ALL these things, including the man of sin sitting in the temple, Then know that summer is nigh...i.e. the day of the Lord is nigh.

I am willing to look at anything and everything, but it cannot violate the foundational principle of the resurrection of the dead. In other words it cannot be that all the dead in Christ shall be changed in a moment, at the Last Trump, and also be true that part of the dead in Christ shall be changed at another time before the Last Trump. 

Take the definition given in Rev. 11 and John 6 and insert it into the text where it says 'the dead in Christ' to get the meaning.

"For the dead in Christ shall rise first...'

"For the saints shall rise first...'

"For those that fear his name, both small and great shall rise first...'

"For his servants the prophets shall rise first...'

"For  all those who God gave to Christ shall rise first...'

"For those who God has drawn to Christ shall rise first...'

These terms are not describing different sets of people that will rise at different times, but are defining who would be included in those who rise first.

So if it was asked...'Who are the dead in Christ that will be resurrected first?' The answer would be:

1) Those whom God has drawn

2) The saints

3) All those who God gave to Christ

4) The prophets

5) Those who fear his name, both small and great

By saying that 'all those who God gave to Christ will not be resurrected at the last day, but rather part of those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected on the last day and part of them will be resurrected before the last day, it is being tacitly alleged that what Jesus said is wrong.

Both premises can not be correct. It cannot be that all are resurrected at the last day and also be true that all will not be resurrected at the last day.

Like as was previously stated...the foundation can not be altered to fit the house, the house must conform to the foundation. 

 

Two questions:

     1)  Do you accept the definition given of who would be judged at the 7th Trumpet? It states:

1) Thy servants the prophets

2) The Saints

3) Them that fear thy name, both small and great

2) Do you accept that those defined above will be resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet?

Blessings to you- Gary

Edited February 27, 2022 by transmogrified

[branchesofHim]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is the same thing Paul told the Thessalonians...don't  let any man deceive you by any means...What would they be deceived about? He told them explicitly what not to be deceived about. He said 'THAT DAY' in which both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him (being caught up / resurrection) WOULD NOT COME except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed.

Excellent point in reference to scripture. Shalom

Luke 17:[22] And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
[23] And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
[24] For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
[25] But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
[26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
[27] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Paul is speaking about the day of vengeance.
 

"And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed
from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance.....
When He shall come to be glorified in His saints..." 1 Thess 1:7-10

"Now we beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and concerning our gathering together unto Him.
That you be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled,
neither by spirit, or word, nor by letter as from us
[1 Thess 4:15-17 he is addressing their thought that what he first
wrote to them  was to happen now]
as that the day of Christ is at hand. 

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day
[the day of vengeance he describes in 1:7-10]
shall not come unless there be a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
2 Thess 2:1-3

Paul is speaking of the day of vengeance; 2 Thess 1:7-10
and says specifically that it won't happen until after the arrival
of the anti-Christ [Deuteronomy 13:1-3, Rev 13:11-18]

What 1 Thess 4:16-17 therefore matches with is Revelation 19:14-21.

Revelation 19:14-21 describes the events of the vengeance,
of Christ spewing fire from His mouth to destroy His enemies;
Rev 19:20-21.

And the Bible clearly says that the saints will see the vengeance,
that is part of our prize;

"The righteous shall rejoice when they see the vengeance,
they shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked"
Psalm 58:10

"To you who fear my name shall the Son of righteousness arise...
and you shall trample down the wicked,
they shall be ashes under your feet in the day that I do this,
says the Lord" Malachi 4:3-4

That day is the day of vengeance,
and the same day that Paul is referring to.

We are caught up, literally to be in the air, in the clouds
just as Paul said. We will be in the air with Christ
as part of His army, watching the vengeance unfold.
 

The tribulation, the end, started when Christ ascended.
He sat down, at the right hand of God,
and opened the book that was at.. the right hand of God!

Revelation 5:1, 7  
"a book in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne"
"And the Lamb took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne"

The opening of that book started the end times.
The white horse represents conquest,
the conquest and formation of the worlds nations as we have them now,
in other words, the arrival of the kingdom that is beast #1.

The red horse included the first 2 world wars,
Hitler was a main and obvious rider on the red horse.

The black horse represents the time of world wide economic collapse,
which we are fully headed into now.

The pale horse represents the anti-Christ period of time,
death literally in the flesh, the devil in the flesh.

Then the saints cry out for the day of the Lord. Rev 6:9-11
Then the day of the Lord happens. 12-17

Revelation six tells a complete prophecy,
the book of Revelation is repeating the same prophecy multiple times,
using different visions to give different details, but all still giving
the same overarching prophecy. [Rev 9:11, 11:7, 17:8]

Therefore, the trumpet in Revelation 11 is the trumpet Paul refers to.
Revelation 8 through 11 is another complete telling of the whole
prophecy. Chapter 12 tells the whole prophecy again in a short
more fanciful way. Then chapter 13 gives details about the beasts.
And 15 through 17 tell the whole prophecy again.
Then the book closes with details of the end of the prophecy.
 

 

[The Light]

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If what is meant by 'escaping all these things,' means you will not be here, then Jesus should not have told his disciples that 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, then know that it is near, even at the doors.'

What Jesus told the disciples was not for them, it was for those that come in the future, so your point has no basis. There will be those that will see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, but it certainly won't be the Church. The Church will not be here when the 70th week of Daniel occurs.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus would have been misleading his disciples to tell them they would see him  sitting in  the temple if he knew the true believers would be raptured before this. The reason he didn't tell them that is because he knew the man of sin would come before the day of the Lord at which time they would be caught up. 

This is the same thing Paul told the Thessalonians...don't  let any man deceive you by any means...What would they be deceived about? He told them explicitly what not to be deceived about. He said 'THAT DAY' in which both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him (being caught up / resurrection) WOULD NOT COME except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed.

WHAT DAY?

2 Thes 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The day of the Lord will occur after the man of sin is revealed.

The gathering from heaven and earth will occur after the man of sin is revealed.

That has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with when He will come for His Church. He is coming when you think not. 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Also if 'escaping all these things' really meant they would escape all the things he mentioned it would not be just the appearing of the man of sin, but would also all the famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars...ect..ect..ect.

Exactly. We can escape ALL THESE THINGS. That is the wars, the famines, the pestilence and earthquakes THAT OCCUR IN THE 1ST 4 SEALs. The 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

But it is indisputable that the disciples from the time of Christ to this present time have suffered famines, pestilences and earthquakes and wars and so forth and some have died as a result. The 'escape via rapture' concept did not apply to them although Jesus said to pray that you would escape ALL THESE THINGS, not just the man of sin.

Jesus is talking about escaping things that will occur in the last days. He is talking about escaping the beginning of sorrows which are the 1st four seals. He is telling the Church to watch and be ready because the fullness of the Gentiles will occur and then God will turn His attention to His Chosen. They will remain during the 70th week of Daniel and blindness will be removed from part of them.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Likewise Jesus said the same thing to them about the parable of the fig tree...the fig tree was not Israel, it was a parable about when you see the branch is tender and puts forth its leaves then you know that summer is nigh. What was the explanation of the parable that Jesus gave them? He explained it himself:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS know that it (The Day of The Lord) is nigh, even at the doors."

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. Those that are here to SEE ALL THESE THINGS know that the Day of the Lord is nigh.

On the other hand, there are those that won't be here to see all these things that come to pass. They will be STANDING BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Notice what he said: 

'When you see all these things, then know that it is nigh even at the doors..'

Notice what he didn't say:

But you won't see all these things because you will be in heaven.'

Better re-read that verse above. We can escape ALL THESE THINGS and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN (in heaven where Jesus is)

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The fig tree is an analogy that when you see all these things come to pass, not just famines, not just earthquakes, not just wars, but when you see ALL these things, including the man of sin sitting in the temple, Then know that summer is nigh...i.e. the day of the Lord is nigh.

Exactly. There will be some here during the 70th week of Daniel that will see all these things. However, the Church can escape all these things.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I am willing to look at anything and everything, but it cannot violate the foundational principle of the resurrection of the dead. In other words it cannot be that all the dead in Christ shall be changed in a moment, at the Last Trump, and also be true that part of the dead in Christ shall be changed at another time before the Last Trump. 

Take the definition given in Rev. 11 and John 6 and insert it into the text where it says 'the dead in Christ' to get the meaning.

"For the dead in Christ shall rise first...'

"For the saints shall rise first...'

"For those that fear his name, both small and great shall rise first...'

"For his servants the prophets shall rise first...'

"For  all those who God gave to Christ shall rise first...'

"For those who God has drawn to Christ shall rise first...'

These terms are not describing different sets of people that will rise at different times, but are defining who would be included in those who rise first.

So if it was asked...'Who are the dead in Christ that will be resurrected first?' The answer would be:

1) Those whom God has drawn

2) The saints

3) All those who God gave to Christ

4) The prophets

5) Those who fear his name, both small and great

By saying that 'all those who God gave to Christ will not be resurrected at the last day, but rather part of those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected on the last day and part of them will be resurrected before the last day, it is being tacitly alleged that what Jesus said is wrong.

see below.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Both premises can not be correct. It cannot be that all are resurrected at the last day and also be true that all will not be resurrected at the last day.

Like as was previously stated...the foundation can not be altered to fit the house, the house must conform to the foundation. 

The last day you keep talking about, the last day, occurs BEFORE the day of the Lord at the 6th seal. You keep wanting to move this resurrection to the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. Yes, there is a resurrection at the 7th trumpet but it is not the dead in Christ or any others in Christ. Again, the resurrection that occurs at the gathering from heaven and earth occurs BEFORE wrath.

2 Thes 2

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The reason for Paul's letter is that the people were very concerned that they had missed the gathering together and were "IN" the day of the Lord. He tells them that they CANNOT BE IN THE DAY OF THE LORD because the man of sin has to be revealed before the day of the Lord can begin.

The gathering occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL, not the 7th trumpet. Here is the gathering in Rev 14 that occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Two questions:

     1)  Do you accept the definition given of who would be judged at the 7th Trumpet? It states:

1) Thy servants the prophets

2) The Saints

3) Them that fear thy name, both small and great

2) Do you accept that those defined above will be resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet?

Blessings to you- Gary

Yes Gary, I totally agree with the above.

Problem is, we can prove, without question, that there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. We can also prove, without question, that the gathering from heaven and earth occurs BEFORE Gods wrath. We can further support that by seeing the great multitude in heaven BEFORE the trumpets BEGIN blowing.

Not to mention the FACT that He is coming in an hour that you think not for the Church. I think it would be wise to listen to the Word. It does not sound like He will appear to those not looking for him.

Heb 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Be wise and watch for Him Gary. Be ready.