The Last trump

[kenny2212]

The purpose of this thread is to address the question of whether the last trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the same as the seventh trumpet sounded by an angel in Revelation 11:15-19.

        I subscribe to the school of thought that they are not. Why? I'll explain - 

There's a trump of God. 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 NKJV(emphasis mine) - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Exodus 19:13 NKJV (emphasis mine) -   Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

Now, who blew this trumpet? We're not told. But it seems where God is there is the sound of the trumpet. Even in the old testament at the capture of Jericho priests blew trumpets and God came on the scene mightily(see Joshua 6:1-21).

Even in the book of Revelation when the glorified Jesus appeared to John, Jesus' voice was said to sound like a trumpet. 

Revelation 1:10-13 NKJV (emphasis mine) - 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 

Paul's calling the rapture trumpet the last trumpet is because it's the last trumpet for the believers. The last trumpet before their glorification and eternal bliss.

This also proves that the rapture is "pre revelation trumpets". Unbelievers will be around to hear the "revelation trumpets" but believers won't.

Moreover I believe that the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation describes more of a "coming down" than a "going up".

Thanks for reading. Any comments?

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by kenny2212

[truth7t7]

41 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

The purpose of this thread is to address the question of whether the last trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the same as the seventh trumpet sounded by an angel in Revelation 11:15-19.

        I subscribe to the school of thought that they are not. Why? I'll explain - 

There's a trump of God. 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 NKJV(emphasis mine) - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Exodus 19:13 NKJV (emphasis mine) -   Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

Now, who blew this trumpet? We're not told. But it seems where God is there is the sound of the trumpet. Even in the old testament at the capture of Jericho priests blew trumpets and God came on the scene mightily(see Joshua 6:1-21).

Even in the book of Revelation when the glorified Jesus appeared to John, Jesus' voice was said to sound like a trumpet. 

Revelation 1:10-13 NKJV (emphasis mine) - 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 

Paul's calling the rapture trumpet the last trumpet is because it's the last trumpet for the believers. The last trumpet before their glorification and eternal bliss.

This also proves that the rapture is "pre revelation trumpets". Unbelievers will be around to hear the "revelation trumpets" but believers won't.

Moreover I believe that the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation describes more of a "coming down" than a "going up".

Thanks for reading. Any comments?

 

Yes the last trump seen in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is exactly the same as the last trump in Revelation 11:15 As both accounts see (The End) at the time of resurrection and final judgement

(Then Cometh The End) at the time of the resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 & 52KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Last Trump is the time of Final judgement (The End)

Revelation 11:15-18KJV

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Edited February 8, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

41 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

The purpose of this thread is to address the question of whether the last trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the same as the seventh trumpet sounded by an angel in Revelation 11:15-19.

        I subscribe to the school of thought that they are not. Why? I'll explain - 

There's a trump of God. 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 NKJV(emphasis mine) - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Exodus 19:13 NKJV (emphasis mine) -   Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

Now, who blew this trumpet? We're not told. But it seems where God is there is the sound of the trumpet. Even in the old testament at the capture of Jericho priests blew trumpets and God came on the scene mightily(see Joshua 6:1-21).

Even in the book of Revelation when the glorified Jesus appeared to John, Jesus' voice was said to sound like a trumpet. 

Revelation 1:10-13 NKJV (emphasis mine) - 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 

Paul's calling the rapture trumpet the last trumpet is because it's the last trumpet for the believers. The last trumpet before their glorification and eternal bliss.

This also proves that the rapture is "pre revelation trumpets". Unbelievers will be around to hear the "revelation trumpets" but believers won't.

Moreover I believe that the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation describes more of a "coming down" than a "going up".

Thanks for reading. Any comments?

 

Beside your proofs there is a very simple reason that you are correct. There are three peoples on earth at the end of the age;

1. The Nations
2. The Nation of Israel
3. The New Man (taken from the twain and a New Creature)

All three are gathered:

1. The Nations are gathered for the judgement of the sheep and the goats (Matt.25:31-32 - "ALL Nations")
2. Israel is gathered from the "four winds" of diaspora (Ezek.37, Matt.24:31)
3. The New Man is gathered to the air and clouds

As a trumpet is for gathering, each one has trumpet. The Church is called first in 1st Corinthians 15:50-54, 1st Thess.4:13-17) but as it is the final gathering, it is the "last trump - for the Church. Next, after the Tribulation, Israel is gathered from the Nations whereto they were scattered with a Great Trumpet. And in Revelation 11 we hear of the seventh Trumpet sounding at Christ's victory and the start of His reign. So is the judgment of "ALL Nations" when the "throne" of His glory is set on earth.

But why is only the Church given a "last Trump"? Because with the restoration of Israel the New Covenant comes into effect and it is one of Law (Jer.31:31-33). Israel will resume the Feast of Trumpets, and those of the Nations who survived Armageddon must go up to Jerusalem at the Feast of Trumpets to worship Christ (Zech.14:16). For a thousand years, both Israel and the survivors of the Nations will be called by the Feast of Trumpets. The Church not so.

[truth7t7]

51 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Beside your proofs there is a very simple reason that you are correct. There are three peoples on earth at the end of the age;

1. The Nations
2. The Nation of Israel
3. The New Man (taken from the twain and a New Creature)

All three are gathered:

1. The Nations are gathered for the judgement of the sheep and the goats (Matt.25:31-32 - "ALL Nations")
2. Israel is gathered from the "four winds" of diaspora (Ezek.37, Matt.24:31)
3. The New Man is gathered to the air and clouds

As a trumpet is for gathering, each one has trumpet. The Church is called first in 1st Corinthians 15:50-54, 1st Thess.4:13-17) but as it is the final gathering, it is the "last trump - for the Church. Next, after the Tribulation, Israel is gathered from the Nations whereto they were scattered with a Great Trumpet. And in Revelation 11 we hear of the seventh Trumpet sounding at Christ's victory and the start of His reign. So is the judgment of "ALL Nations" when the "throne" of His glory is set on earth.

But why is only the Church given a "last Trump"? Because with the restoration of Israel the New Covenant comes into effect and it is one of Law (Jer.31:31-33). Israel will resume the Feast of Trumpets, and those of the Nations who survived Armageddon must go up to Jerusalem at the Feast of Trumpets to worship Christ (Zech.14:16). For a thousand years, both Israel and the survivors of the Nations will be called by the Feast of Trumpets. The Church not so.

I Strongly Disagree

There is one future resurrection of all, this takes place on the (Last Day) as scripture clearly teaches below

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Edited February 8, 2022 by truth7t7

[DeighAnn]

A SINGLE MOMENT IN TIME

2  Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

[truth7t7]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

A SINGLE MOMENT IN TIME

2  Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

We Agree, in the twinkling of an eye, mortal will put on immortality, as death is swallowed up in victory (The End)

[Diaste]

How would we know it's a last trump unless we knew there were other trumps before it and how many trumps in total?

We know of one series of trumps associated with the end of the age, Christ's return and the gathering, and that is the 7 trumps of Revelation. 

This satisfies the above; We know how many and that other trumps come before it. It's the only clearly identifiable last trump associated with this time.

 

[kenny2212]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

How would we know it's a last trump unless we knew there were other trumps before it and how many trumps in total?

We know of one series of trumps associated with the end of the age, Christ's return and the gathering, and that is the 7 trumps of Revelation. 

This satisfies the above; We know how many and that other trumps come before it. It's the only clearly identifiable last trump associated with this time.

 

No, we know it's the last trump because God (through Paul) said it's the last trump. As I said where God is there is the sound of the trumpet. It's not that after 7th trumpet of the book of Revelation the sound of the trumpet will never be heard again in association with God forever. That's just not possible. As I said there is a trump of God.

Exodus 19:13 NKJV (emphasis mine) -   Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.” 

Also the voice of the glorified Jesus is said to sound like a trumpet.
 

Revelation 1:10-13 NKJV (emphasis mine) - 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 

Paul's calling the rapture trumpet the last trumpet is because it's the last trumpet for the believers. The last trumpet before their glorification and eternal bliss.

Thanks for reading. God bless.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by kenny2212

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

No, we know it's the last trump because God (through Paul) said it's the last trump. As I said where God is there is the sound of the trumpet. It's not that after 7th trumpet of the book of Revelation the sound of the trumpet will never be heard again in association with God forever. That's just not possible. As I said there is a trump of God.

But that isn't what I said. I said, it's the only series of trumps, and the only last trump, associated with the end of the age, the coming of Christ and the gathering. So when at that moment in future history when it's the moment of Jesus' coming and the gathering in the end of the age, there is only one series of trumps and one last trump of that series in close association to these two events, at that time. 

Well...when we see or hear trumps that God talks about they are all trumps of God. All 7 of the trumps of Revelation are trumps of God. They aren't subcontracted or purchased from the Trumpet Store.

 

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Exodus 19:13 NKJV (emphasis mine) -   Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.” 

Sure. I don't disagree.

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Also the voice of the glorified Jesus is said to sound like a trumpet.
 

Revelation 1:10-13 NKJV (emphasis mine) - 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 

This is a simile. The voice isn't a literal trumpet. It's loud like a trump is loud. Notice the 'as of a trumpet'. Not to be taken literally as it's a comparison of quality of sound.

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Paul's calling the rapture trumpet the last trumpet is because it's the last trumpet for the believers. The last trumpet before their glorification and eternal bliss.

Thanks for reading. God bless.

Oh? And where is the evidence? Where does Paul say this? Or any other apostle? I see no such implication from which I can infer this attribute. It's true it's a last trump. It's true that at this last trump the dead shall rise first and we who are alive and remain will be caught up. And it would be true it is that last trump before redemption, glorification and bliss.

But I don't see any text to help me understand this is a last trump with a singular specific purpose and sound for believers only. 

 

[kenny2212]

Diaste, what you and I think it is doesn't change what it actually is. My prayer is may we be counted worthy to respond when the last trump sounds.

I just don't see anything in the 7th trumpet passage in Revelation that points to a rapture. Here is the passage - Revelation 11:15-19 (NKJV) - 

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Forget that both passages mention the phrase "last trump" for a second. What in the description that follows alludes to "rapture"? For example in 1 Corinthians 15:51(NKJV)(the description is in bold) - Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So what in the description in Revelation 11:15-19 alludes to "rapture"?

Edited February 11, 2022 by kenny2212