The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[kenny2212]

1 Thess. 4:13-17 - 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

In this passage of scripture Paul is talking about what happens to Christians who die(in this passage they are referred to as those who "sleep in Jesus"). Paul is saying that Christians who have died are with the Lord. And at the Lord's coming(which I also believe is the rapture), Jesus brings them with him and unites their spirits with their spiritual bodies(2 Cor. 15:44). "We who are alive and remain" are Christians who are alive(still in their earthsuits)at the time the Lord comes.

God bless us all.

Thanks for reading. Any questions or comments?

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If all the ALIVE and remaining 'are ever with the Lord' then they must have put on immortality when they were 'changed'. 

Hopefully I am not going to far out on a limb to suggest that ANYONE who has taken the MARK aka the UNSAVED,  CAN'T BE AMONG THE GROUP to receive immortality. 

Wouldn't that mean that the UNSAVED must ALL DIE, to leave 'the alive and remaining' to be changed?  

Since 'the nations' are around for the Millennium,  WHEN DO THE UNSAVED RISE FOR THE MILLENNIUM?  IT WOULD SEEM THEY must rise at the beginning to be coming to the temple to worship and

To avenge 'those under the altar' wouldn't those who 'put them there' NEED TO BE PRESENT/RISEN to an incorruptible body at least?  Same for those fellowservants? 
Rev 6:9
And when He opened the fifth seal I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had held
(aka slaughtered because of the testimony they echoed)

10  And they were crying in a voice loud saying Until when O Lord holy and TRUE not do You judge AND AVENGE the blood of us from those dwelling upon the earth?

1556. ekdikeó ►
Strong's Concordance
ekdikeó: to vindicate, to avenge
Original Word: ἐκδικέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdikeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik-eh'-o)
Definition: to vindicate, to avenge
Usage: I give justice over, defend, avenge, vindicate.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1556 ekdikéō – to dispense justice, carrying a judgment completely through, i.e. with all that is appropriate to it. See 1557 (ekdikēsis).

11  And were given to them each robes white and it was said to them that they shall rest yet a time little until would be fulfilled also the fellow servants of them and the brothers of them those being about to be killed as also {had been} they
Wouldn't that require 'the church' to be present?



And wouldn't those who 'pierced' him need to be present to 'look upon Him'?  

Zechariah 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

And wouldn't EVERY KNEE REQUIRE EVERYONE unsaved and all?
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Doesn't this state that ALL unsaved FLESH shall DIE when He returns? 
19:18
so that you may eat flesh of kings and flesh of commanders and flesh of mighty and flesh of horses and of those sitting on them and flesh OF ALL both free and slaves and small and great

3956. pas ►
Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

 

19:21  And the rest were killed with the sword of the {One} sitting on the horse having gone forth out of the mouth of him And all the birds were filled with the flesh of them
 

I have not read the other answers so forgive men if I repeat somebody else. You are correct in all the activities of the nations after Christ returns. It is the basis for your question that holds the key to it. Here is the context;

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The Thessalonian Church hosted Paul for just three short weeks (Act.17). In this time he taught the rapture. But as we see in all cases of the Bible, the rapture is for THE LIVING. It is to "caught away" BODILY. What the Thessalonian saints were "ignorant" of was, how will the DEAD Christians be with the Living when Christ returns with His saints. The discourse of 1st Thessalonians 4 concerns ONLY "those who sleep IN Jesus". Paul therefore informs them that the reason that the now dead saints will be with the living as they come down with Christ, is that BEFORE the LIVING are "caught away" to the sky, the DEAD will rise from Hades to the surface of the earth to join them. The sequence is as follows;

1. The living are on the surface of the earth
2. The dead are under the earth in Hades
3. The trump and shout of God sounds
4. The dead saints leave Hades and meet their new bodies on the SURFACE of the earth
5. The living saints are changed into their new bodies on the SURFACE of the earth (1st Cor.15:51)
6. Now (i) ALL are LIVING and (ii) ALL are CHANGED - and TOGETHER they are "caught away" to the air
7. Jesus, waiting HIDDEN in the clouds, receives them
8. They ALL are judged at the Bema
9. They ALL return with Christ (Rev.19)

This discourse ONLY concerns Christians. Israel and the Nations are resurrected to the surface of the earth. Israel will be resurrected when Christ burst from the clouds into sight above Mt. Olivet - not while He is hidden on the clouds. Then they are "gathered" (Matt.24:31) - but not to the clouds. They, like Philip in Acts 8, are gathered to another place on earth - from the nation of their diaspora to Canaan (Ezek.37). The Nations are never gathered, neither are they raptured. They are resurrected at the White Throne - a thousand years later.

[DeighAnn]

On 3/23/2022 at 12:51 PM, Josheb said:

The ones who pierced him died long ago.

EXACTLY.  But when the 'dead rise' at His return and every knee bows...everyone is present and accounted for except for the sea and death delivering up their dead and Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. and possibly others I am not taking into account.  

[DeighAnn]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:00 PM, George said:

Just some Scripture ...

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 

Joh_6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

All this took place when the graves opened and we came under the New Covenant, correct?  

 

On 3/23/2022 at 1:00 PM, George said:

Zec 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 

What happens to those who take the mark of the beast at His return?  Are the nations made up of those who did or others and if so who?

[DeighAnn]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:38 PM, Selah7 said:

Where are those who have passed on?  

Good to hear from you too!!  We have those who have 'gone to be where He is' and those who are still bond by death in the grave.  One side of the gulf or the other in a different dimension.  

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No. Here, you must remember that there will be other nations - the Gentiles of every race and nation - who will be physically alive and will be sent home, after the initial wars over Israel's Land.

Am I correct in that you believe there are those who can take the mark of the beast and live through the return of Christ?   

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

They will be present during the Millennium, but they won't need to rise from the dead because they never would have died, yet! They SHALL be present at the beginning of the Millennium to come to the Temple to worship before YHWH God.

 

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Since there will be no more DEATH or GRAVE for the Millennium, how will they die a 'second death' if they have not died a first one?  

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There SHALL be a resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium and it will involve all those who belong to the Messiah! That's not just the "church" but is also the Children of Israel! THEY, TOO, belong to the Messiah! In fact, they FIRST belong to the Messiah! From such, He shall organize His Kingdom.

Do you believe 
 

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Let me ask it this way.  All the saved go to be with the Lord and return with Him.  SO WHO would be 'dead' in the earth if the saved never are?  

[DeighAnn]

On 3/23/2022 at 2:03 PM, Selah7 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring only to those who are saved (dead in Christ).  The unsaved (spiritually dead) who never had a chance to hear the Gospel will have the 1,000-year Millennium to either get it right and go into the second resurrection or not get it right and go into the second death (lake of fire).

Which unsaved? those already dead before the Trib or those with the mark of the beast when He returns?  

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not exactly. It's the flesh of all who died, not all will die and their flesh eaten. It's also likely the flesh of all in the sense of all walks of life or status, equally, no distinctions between the lowest and highest.

 

All who don't die would automatically become IMMORTAL  by being of the 'alive and remaining group',  correct?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.